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Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2014, 08:57:17 AM »
"You can forget notions of prevailing winds here, which is one reason there's no slope/rating for the scorecard nor fixed handicap index per hole."

Is this really true, or is it just that the course has yet to open? The White Course has ten course ratings. I am growing weary of this legend that the Sand Hills is too windy to be handicapped.

I've never heard the wind excuse. The likely factor on why these prairie links courses don't publish their slope and rating, is that the criteria for gauging these numbers, don't equate with the style. So, the numbers come out too low for their liking. There are no trees, manicured rough, and no water hazards. Most, if not all these course raters, come from metro areas where these weak design elements, take center stage on quantifying the misguided concept of difficulty.

Michael Whitaker, Forget what their ranking is, how do they have the nerve to charge what they charge if conditions are that spotty? But, if it doesn't affect play, and is purely cosmetic, it's a non factor for architectural analysis.

I'm not sure exactly what went on this winter. My uneducated opinion is that the Poa annua checked out. I know it can go into a deep dormancy and almost always survive. But based on the pattern, and the fact that Bayside's greens appear to have zero poa on them this year, I'm convinced that's what happened here. And from all accounts, their course suffered very little compared to others.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2014, 08:58:42 AM »
There are no strangers at Dismal. That is as much the beauty of the place as the courses.
If you haven't worked out all the teams and all the bets on the way out, it is done in the bar the night before. Once there, slope, rating, handicap holes is a complete non-issue.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 09:30:47 AM by Don Mahaffey »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2014, 09:30:42 AM »
I always thought it would be romantic to help build a golf course until the walking tour of Dismal Red a couple of years ago.  I have a greater appreciation for what it takes to build a great golf course after watching the young men raking thatch on the 17th green pad in the heat and dust.  Delighted to hear their hard work has yielded such a stellar golf course.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2014, 09:48:40 AM »
There are no strangers at Dismal. That is as much the beauty of the place as the courses.
If you haven't worked out all the teams and all the bets on the way out, it is done in the bar the night before. Once there, slope, rating, handicap holes is a complete non-issue.

+1

give me my one shot on any hole you want, LOL

fun
It's all about the golf!

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2014, 10:15:48 AM »
Don't the pros at SHGC, DR, Bally have a set of hole handicaps that fit the day and wind?  I think that if they could easily develop a local program to put in a laptop in the lobby, that you record guest player hole by hole scores for a year.  Make note of the entered score day's prevailing wind if over say 10mph, and if it is generally out of the south SW or SE, then develop that set of handicap holes, and if the more rare North NW or NE, develop that set of hole handicaps.  Have a third set for days with under 10mph wind. 

The hole handicaps and course/sllope ratings are variable as the weather.   I think it is just a courtesy that when a group of players are having matches in this golf outing setting, that the pros hand them the day's hole handicaps for the conditions that exist.  That way, the guests can have their matches and betting games based on real time conditions which makes it more fun and fair to all. 

What I am surprised about is if the GB&I traditionally windy and coastal dunes and links courses have fixed hole handicaps that don't take into account the wildly variable winds.   How do those wind sites of the Irish and Brit Isles handle the disparity of wind v handicap of holes?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2014, 10:36:16 AM »
Don't the pros at SHGC, DR, Bally have a set of hole handicaps that fit the day and wind?  I think that if they could easily develop a local program to put in a laptop in the lobby, that you record guest player hole by hole scores for a year.  Make note of the entered score day's prevailing wind if over say 10mph, and if it is generally out of the south SW or SE, then develop that set of handicap holes, and if the more rare North NW or NE, develop that set of hole handicaps.  Have a third set for days with under 10mph wind. 

The hole handicaps and course/sllope ratings are variable as the weather.   I think it is just a courtesy that when a group of players are having matches in this golf outing setting, that the pros hand them the day's hole handicaps for the conditions that exist.  That way, the guests can have their matches and betting games based on real time conditions which makes it more fun and fair to all. 

What I am surprised about is if the GB&I traditionally windy and coastal dunes and links courses have fixed hole handicaps that don't take into account the wildly variable winds.   How do those wind sites of the Irish and Brit Isles handle the disparity of wind v handicap of holes?

what a waste of time figuring score variations on golf holes, LOL

"the whole is greater the than the sum of the parts"
It's all about the golf!

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2014, 10:44:08 AM »
Brad obviously spells out why he liked the course.

For me the walkability and routing make the course despite my teeing off on #8 thinking it was #5, LOL

The natural undulations preserved by the team and the cattle skulls!
It's all about the golf!

Sam Morrow

Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2014, 10:46:53 AM »
Glad to see the new course getting it's due I just wish now people would get their heads out of their butts and see how good the Nicklaus course is.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2014, 10:58:37 AM »
Glad to see the new course getting it's due I just wish now people would get their heads out of their butts and see how good the Nicklaus course is.

Good luck with that on this site.

Sam Morrow

Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2014, 11:03:06 AM »
Glad to see the new course getting it's due I just wish now people would get their heads out of their butts and see how good the Nicklaus course is.

Good luck with that on this site.
the 1500 finest closed minds in golf.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2014, 11:08:04 AM »
Glad to see the new course getting it's due I just wish now people would get their heads out of their butts and see how good the Nicklaus course is.

Good luck with that on this site.
the 1500 finest closed minds in golf.

Not quite 1500. I'd put it at about 1000 with the rest balanced between open minded and simply intrigued lurkers.

I need to make the trip soon as it does seem to provide the perfect opportunity to compare and contrast the styles of Nicklaus and Doak as each seems rather proud of their offering at the site. 


Sam Morrow

Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2014, 11:13:08 AM »
It's well worth the trip!

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2014, 11:34:07 AM »
My guess Greg is that you will become 1501 ;)

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2014, 01:09:03 PM »
Odd how agreeing with someone is deemed the primary criteria for being open minded...




Congrats to all involved.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2014, 01:48:15 PM »
So Brad Klein just listed Dismal River Red as the 2nd best American golf course built since 1960...second only to Sand Hills. And all we've gotten so far here is a bunch of back slapping and a discussion on hole handicaps in the sand hills.





Sad.   ::)
H.P.S.

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2014, 02:02:35 PM »
Brad Klein just listed Dismal River Red as the 2nd best American golf course built since 1960...second only to Sand Hills.

Did he really?  Brad clearly ranks it real high, but giving it a 9 does not necessarily mean he considers it the second best US course built since 1960. 

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2014, 02:03:59 PM »
Brad Klein just listed Dismal River Red as the 2nd best American golf course built since 1960...second only to Sand Hills.

Did he really?  Brad clearly ranks it real high, but giving it a 9 does not necessarily mean he considers it the second best US course built since 1960. 

Only course with a rating over 9 on the 2014 modern list is Sand Hills.
H.P.S.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2014, 02:57:24 PM »
PCraig - what would you suggest?

IMHO, it's a helluva course and is well-deserving of praise. 

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2014, 03:13:51 PM »
Odd how agreeing with someone is deemed the primary criteria for being open minded...




Congrats to all involved.

You certainly did not reach that conclusion from my post. Many of those I would consider open minded are some of the most disagreeable contributors on GCA.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2014, 03:16:40 PM »
PCraig - what would you suggest?

I would suggest someone explain why it's so clearly better than the following courses:

Pacific Dunes
Friar's Head
Whistling Straits
Old Macdonald
Bandon Dunes
Ocean Course
Etc.
Etc.

Putting Dismal Doak slightly behind Sand Hills is extremely high praise for effectively a brand new golf course. Right or wrong, how that doesn't even warrant a meaningful discussion is pathetic.    
H.P.S.

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2014, 03:41:13 PM »
Brad Klein just listed Dismal River Red as the 2nd best American golf course built since 1960...second only to Sand Hills.

Did he really?  Brad clearly ranks it real high, but giving it a 9 does not necessarily mean he considers it the second best US course built since 1960. 

Only course with a rating over 9 on the 2014 modern list is Sand Hills.

But that's the average from all Golfweek raters who ranked Sand Hills.  We'd have to know Brad's individual rankings to know which course he puts first, second, etc.

If you compare apples to apples, Dismal Red has a score of around 7.42.  That puts it in 39th (?) place, not second. 

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2014, 03:49:51 PM »
In Brad's defense perhaps the figure of 9 is for magazine purposes only and not a reflection on a true"rating"number he might assign to the course....just saying?

To make the assumption that Mr Klein ranks the Red second only to Sand Hills will require him saying so as far as I am concerned. ;D

Mark Steffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2014, 04:08:09 PM »
PCraig - what would you suggest?

I would suggest someone explain why it's so clearly better than the following courses:

Pacific Dunes
Friar's Head
Whistling Straits
Old Macdonald
Bandon Dunes
Ocean Course
Etc.
Etc.

Putting Dismal Doak slightly behind Sand Hills is extremely high praise for effectively a brand new golf course. Right or wrong, how that doesn't even warrant a meaningful discussion is pathetic.    

are you assuming Mr Klein didn't assign a rating of higher than 9.0 to each or any of the roster you list here?
after all he is only 1 rater out of what?  600?

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2014, 04:08:34 PM »
Not sure why its contentious.  Brad really likes the place.  Maybe it moves up a few spots on next year's Modern list.  The only surprise to me is the 10 he gave for walk in the park test after all the strum und drang about the cart ride to and from the course.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 04:13:24 PM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Chris_Hufnagel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2014, 04:56:12 PM »
So Brad Klein just listed Dismal River Red as the 2nd best American golf course built since 1960...second only to Sand Hills. And all we've gotten so far here is a bunch of back slapping and a discussion on hole handicaps in the sand hills.
Sad.   ::)

I certainly think the congratulating (or "back slapping") is in order - a 9.0 from Dr. Klein is certainly high praise and we know many people on this board are either directly associated with the club or hold the Doak course in very high esteem. 

I am guessing for the same reasons, and perhaps some past precedents, there hasn't yet been any serious discussion on the lofty ranking - emotions seem to run high here in discussing Dismal River. 

But your point about "second best since 1960" is well taken and I would guess (hope) we will eventually get around to debating that...

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