Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

I think we're pretty close to being in agreement on individual course conditions dictating how the hole was designed and grassed.

I do think, however, that it was the intent of CBM and Raynor to have the Biarritz at Yale play to the back tier, and that the front tier was grassed as green to allow for greater rollout for balls landing on the front section.  Shots back then were generally lower, negating a bit of the effect of the elevation change from tee to green.  It fits perfectly with CBM's mantra of certain types of shots being required on certain holes.

Whether the subsequent change to pin the front section occurred during construction or afterwards, I do not know.  But as you noted, all of the literature about the hole from before the course opened describes the "green proper" being behind the swale, in line with the design intent noted above.


Sven,

I've stood on that tee and hit low drivers to the front tier and none of them could run on the front tier, down into the swale, back up the swale to the back tier.

That swale is deep and steep.
And that was when the front tier was mowed as green, stimping at a decent pace.

Hence, there's no way that shots from the tee could be played successfully to the front tier to get to the back tier.
It's airborne all the way.

The fact that Scott Ramsey discovered that the swale and entire front tier had the same greensmix as the back tier, greensmix ONLY found under putting surfaces/greens at Yale, indicates that the hole was built with the entire structure as a putting surface.

Only on rare occasions is the hole cut in the swale.

Another factor is the steep nature of the back tier, sloped from the back of the swale to the back of the green, which would make running a shot to back hole locations even more difficult.

When you consider the steep angle of attack into that green from a drive from a tee elevated high above the green, it's next to impossible to get a ball to land on the front tier and roll through the swale and onto the back tier.

I'd be curious to hear from Geoff Childs, Mike Sweeney and others who have played the hole a good number of times.
Unfortunately, Uncle George is no longer here to help us. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Also, here's an admittedly terrible iPhone photo of the Biarritz at Forsgate taken from behind the green.

Jon,

Actually, it's a great photo because it shows the wide expanse of the swale.
As I indicated earlier, I estimated the distance from crown to crown at about 20 yards and the depth of the area accomodating viable hole locations at the bottom of the swale at about 10 yards.

[Bill Brightly]

I've already responded many times to your theory about Yale, and it has been refuted by early newspaper descriptions of the hole.

But if I play along and buy that Raynor decided to alter CBM's concept, why didn't Raynor do it at Fishers Island?

I will have to ask him when I next visit Southampton and speak to he and CBM.

The early photos are indesputable as are accounts of the play of the hole from opening day.

Think about the configuration of the 9th green at Yale.
If the entire surface was not maintained as putting green, you could never get the ball to the back tier, the carry was too heroic on opening day, as it is today.

The early written descriptions are quite clear about the putting surface behind the swale. I know that you are enthralled with Scott's charcoal core samples, and I really hate to rain on your parade. I'll accept that those in control of the course decided at a very early point in Yale's history that the front section should be used as a putting surface. Perhaps they agreed with you that the demand was too great to reach the putting surface, and decided to cup the front. Clearly, many people called Biarritz hole Macdonald's Folly. If good golfers like you thought is was too hard, converting the approach to putting surface was an obvious alteration.

Now show me one tiny bit of evidence that SETH RAYNOR designed a two-section putting surface, and I'll be impressed. It would have been a watershed moment in Seth's career: a clear and dramatic deviation from what CB Macdonald taught him. Once so inspired, I wonder why he never repeated the two-section green again.

 

[Jon Cavalier]

Also, here's an admittedly terrible iPhone photo of the Biarritz at Forsgate taken from behind the green.

Jon,

Actually, it's a great photo because it shows the wide expanse of the swale.
As I indicated earlier, I estimated the distance from crown to crown at about 20 yards and the depth of the area accomodating viable hole locations at the bottom of the swale at about 10 yards.

Glad it helps. I remember being so pleasantly surprised by the quality of this course when I played there that I wished I'd had my "real" camera. But I stopped by completely on a whim on a trip back from New York - the course is very close to the turnpike. So I've only got a few shots, including this (ugly but effective) one of the Biarritz, a few of the thumbprint, one of the punchbowl, and a few of the redan.

Having played there relatively recently, your measurements seem accurate to me, and I do remember seeing several old cups down in the swale.

[Jim Nugent]

Once so inspired, I wonder why he never repeated the two-section green again.

 

Father Time stepped in, sadly early in Raynor's case. 

Bill, in general do you think Biarritz holes work better when the swale is in the green?  Sounds like Yale's does.  I'm curious about others.  Maybe need to consider case by case. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

You are confusing "intent" and actual playing characteristics.

As Bill noted, the intent was to have the ball land near the beginning of the swale and roll or bound up to the back portion (the actual green).

Here's the write-up I assume he is referring to (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44833.0/) -

Number Nine

225-210-190 yards

This hole has its original on the Biarritz Course at the famous watering place of France of the same name.

This is the second of the short holes and is planned for a single shot to the green with the driver.  There is a 165 yard water carry from the back tee.  The green proper is behind a deep trench in the approach.  The approach is about the same size as the green itself and is bunkered heavily on both right and left with water jutting in on the right front.  The fairway is the lake.  The tees are elevated above the lake.  The green is heavily battered at the back and right and the whole psychology of the hole is to let out to the limit.  The distance, however, is not as great as it seems due to the water, and a moderate stroke with care is safer than a slam.  Correct play for this green is to carry to the near edge of the groove or trench and come up on the green with a roll.  The disappearance and reappearance of the ball in the groove adds to the interest of the play.  The carry for this play is 190 from the back tee.

This type of hole is well put up on the Creek Course where the tide plays a part in the hazard.

Yale's Biarritz may be a very fun hole to play, but it is not the best example of the template.  I would even listen to an argument that the play of the hole is so far removed from the concepts behind the creation of the template that it is not even really a Biarritz.

Sven

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

You are confusing "intent" and actual playing characteristics.

Not at all.

As Bill noted, the intent was to have the ball land near the beginning of the swale and roll or bound up to the back portion (the actual green).
It can't happen, the swale is too deep and too steep.

Here's the write-up I assume he is referring to (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44833.0/) -

The "write-up" was written BEFORE the hole was built, thus rendering it irrelevant

Number Nine

225-210-190 yards

This hole has its original on the Biarritz Course at the famous watering place of France of the same name.

This is the second of the short holes and is planned for a single shot to the green with the driver.  There is a 165 yard water carry from the back tee.  The green proper is behind a deep trench in the approach.  The approach is about the same size as the green itself and is bunkered heavily on both right and left with water jutting in on the right front.  The fairway is the lake.  The tees are elevated above the lake.  The green is heavily battered at the back and right and the whole psychology of the hole is to let out to the limit.  The distance, however, is not as great as it seems due to the water, and a moderate stroke with care is safer than a slam.  Correct play for this green is to carry to the near edge of the groove or trench and come up on the green with a roll.  The disappearance and reappearance of the ball in the groove adds to the interest of the play.  The carry for this play is 190 from the back tee.

This type of hole is well put up on the Creek Course where the tide plays a part in the hazard.

The configuration of the green at The Creek is dramatically different from the one at Yale.
The swale is barely discernable and the elevation differential between tee and green is minimal, thus allowing for balls to run the length of the green.
Something that's impossible at Yale.

Yale's Biarritz may be a very fun hole to play, but it is not the best example of the template.

Agree, it's fun, but when it comes to playing the hole, with form versus function there's a disconnect 

I would even listen to an argument that the play of the hole is so far removed from the concepts behind the creation of the template that it is not even really a Biarritz.

It's a hybrid Biarritz that does not play as intended due to the configuration of the green and the elevation differential.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Once so inspired, I wonder why he never repeated the two-section green again.

 

Father Time stepped in, sadly early in Raynor's case. 

Bill, in general do you think Biarritz holes work better when the swale is in the green? 

Absolutely.

There's more variety in hole locations and there's more variety in playing them

Sounds like Yale's does.  I'm curious about others.  Maybe need to consider case by case. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

There are pictures of constructed golf holes in the article, so it was obviously not written prior to construction.  The article does note that the course was in the process of being reseeded. 

The article is entirely relevant in a discussion of the intent of the designers in the play of the hole.

Sven

[Tim Martin]

Pat:

I think we're pretty close to being in agreement on individual course conditions dictating how the hole was designed and grassed.

I do think, however, that it was the intent of CBM and Raynor to have the Biarritz at Yale play to the back tier, and that the front tier was grassed as green to allow for greater rollout for balls landing on the front section.  Shots back then were generally lower, negating a bit of the effect of the elevation change from tee to green.  It fits perfectly with CBM's mantra of certain types of shots being required on certain holes.

Whether the subsequent change to pin the front section occurred during construction or afterwards, I do not know.  But as you noted, all of the literature about the hole from before the course opened describes the "green proper" being behind the swale, in line with the design intent noted above.


Sven,

I've stood on that tee and hit low drivers to the front tier and none of them could run on the front tier, down into the swale, back up the swale to the back tier.

That swale is deep and steep.
And that was when the front tier was mowed as green, stimping at a decent pace.

Hence, there's no way that shots from the tee could be played successfully to the front tier to get to the back tier.
It's airborne all the way.

The fact that Scott Ramsey discovered that the swale and entire front tier had the same greensmix as the back tier, greensmix ONLY found under putting surfaces/greens at Yale, indicates that the hole was built with the entire structure as a putting surface.

Only on rare occasions is the hole cut in the swale.

Another factor is the steep nature of the back tier, sloped from the back of the swale to the back of the green, which would make running a shot to back hole locations even more difficult.

When you consider the steep angle of attack into that green from a drive from a tee elevated high above the green, it's next to impossible to get a ball to land on the front tier and roll through the swale and onto the back tier.

I'd be curious to hear from Geoff Childs, Mike Sweeney and others who have played the hole a good number of times.
Unfortunately, Uncle George is no longer here to help us. 

Pat-After hundreds of plays over thirty years I have never seen number nine at Yale pinned in the swale. The current  head professional who has been there for twenty years advised me that it has never been pinned in the swale for everyday play to his knowledge. Scott Ramsay advises that he has pinned it there a few times for a "greens keepers revenge" tournament or a superintendents outing but never for everyday or tournament play. I know you said you played it when it was pinned in the swale but it was likely before Scott's tenure which began in 2003. As to whether or not a shot can be played to the front tier and climb through the swale and to the back portion I have seen it happen albeit rarely. In my experience a fairway wood hit on a lowish trajectory is the one that has a chance of accomplishing this on rare occasions.

[Sven Nilsen]

Lest there be any confusion as to the veracity of the author of the summary, George Bahto cited none other than Charles Banks as the writer.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

There are pictures of constructed golf holes in the article, so it was obviously not written prior to construction.

I disagree with your logic.
If I wrote about the Donald's intent at Ferry Point two years ago, before construction, and I incorporated pictures taken subsequently, during construction, how does that establish that my article was written during construction 

The article does note that the course was in the process of being reseeded. 

The article is entirely relevant in a discussion of the intent of the designers in the play of the hole.

I'll have to pull up the old thread.
Intent on the play of a hole not built, and play of the hole after construction are two different things.

How many times have you played Yale with the hole cut in the back tier where you were able to land your ball on the front tier and have it roll across the front tier, down and back up the swale and onto the back tier ?

It's almost impossible under normal conditions.

The intent was pure folly

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lest there be any confusion as to the veracity of the author of the summary, George Bahto cited none other than Charles Banks as the writer.

Yes, but, it was dated pre-construction

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat-After hundreds of plays over thirty years I have never seen number nine at Yale pinned in the swale. The current  head professional who has been there for twenty years advised me that it has never been pinned in the swale for everyday play to his knowledge. Scott Ramsay advises that he has pinned it there a few times for a "greens keepers revenge" tournament or a superintendents outing but never for everyday or tournament play.

I know you said you played it when it was pinned in the swale but it was likely before Scott's tenure which began in 2003.

As to whether or not a shot can be played to the front tier and climb through the swale and to the back portion I have seen it happen albeit rarely.

In my experience a fairway wood hit on a lowish trajectory is the one that has a chance of accomplishing this on rare occasions.

Tim,

Let's look at the facts.

Most fairway woods are 15-19 degrees in loft.
A strong 3-wood would be 13 to 13.5 in loft.

The tee is elevated about 33 or more feet above the lake/green.

Tell me how to hit a "lowish trajectory" fairway wood from a tee ?

I've played a lot of golf and have yet to see anyone perfect a bladed tee shot with a fairway wood.

If I recall correctly, to get to the back of the back tier is about 230-240 and that back tier is sloped pretty well.

I'd like to have the concession on that tee and bet everyone who comes through there, under normal conditions, that they can't hit a fairway wood that will land on the front tier, roll to the swale, down and up the swale and into the meat of the back tier.

Anyone want to take that bet ?

[Sven Nilsen]

Here is Scott Ramsay's description of the hole, taken from his "Courses by Country" piece:

"Ninthhole, 215 yards, Biarritz;

The author’s favorite inland one shotter, the view from the tee willstay with the golfer until his dying days. The feeling one gets playing the hole the first several times is that of standing on a precipice hitting over an abyss to a green that is impossibly far away. The reality is only slightly more on a human scale with tee perched high on an embankment sixty feet above Griest Pond. On the far side of the hundred yard wide pond is one of the world’s largest single putting surfaces, measuring sixty-five yards from front to back and including a five-foot gully (!)through its middle. The sheer audacity of this 12,000 square foot green sets the hole apart in world golf as, after all, no further dramatics were really required given the heroic nature of the tee ball. In theory, the player is to use the front slope of the gully to help sling the ball to the back hole locations. Thus,as with every full length Biarritz, it should be mandatory that the hole be placed on the back half of thegreen the vast majority of the time as the tee ball is more varied and interesting. Indeed, when the hole is forward, and given the downhill nature of the hole, the tee ball is often struck with little more than a mid-iron. This robs the hole a tad of the excitement that must have been present in the days of hickory golf clubs when a five wood or long iron was required."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

See my comments below


Here is Scott Ramsay's description of the hole, taken from his "Courses by Country" piece:

"Ninthhole, 215 yards, Biarritz;

That's 215 yards to the MIDDLE of the green, it's 231 yards to the middle of the back tier.

The author’s favorite inland one shotter, the view from the tee willstay with the golfer until his dying days.
The feeling one gets playing the hole the first several times is that of standing on a precipice hitting over an abyss to a green that is impossibly far away.

The reality is only slightly more on a human scale with tee perched high on an embankment sixty feet above Griest Pond. [/color[/b]

60 feet

On the far side of the hundred yard wide pond is one of the world’s largest single putting surfaces, measuring sixty-five yards from front to back and including a five-foot gully (!)through its middle. The sheer audacity of this 12,000 square foot green sets the hole apart in world golf as, after all, no further dramatics were really required given the heroic nature of the tee ball.

In theory, the player is to use the front slope of the gully to help sling the ball to the back hole locations.[/b][/size]

This is a critical remark.
The front slope of the swale is probably measures 3 yards in depth, at approximately 210 yards from the tee.
Try hitting a 3 yard target, from 210 yards from a tee elevated about 60 feet above your target.
You will note that Scott doesn't state that the "theory" or "intent" is to land on the front tier.
No, instead, he states that the "theory" or "intent" is to land on an infinitesimal slope, a sliver if you will, which is the downslope of the swale, probably 3 yards in depth, and that only by doing so can you propel the ball onto the back, upper tier.

Go another few feet and you hit into the upslope.
Go a few feet shorter and you land on the front tier, most likely leaving your ball at the bottom of the swale.

Thus, as with every full length Biarritz, it should be mandatory that the hole be placed on the back half of the green the vast majority of the time as the tee ball is more varied and interesting.

That's a subjective analysis not borne out by the physical configuration of the hole and flight of balls hit by lofted fairway woods or drivers, especially from highly elevated tees.


Indeed, when the hole is forward, and given the downhill nature of the hole, the tee ball is often struck with little more than a mid-iron.

Wait a second.
The distance to the mid-point of the front tier is 183 yards.
Granted it's from an elevated tee, but, that's no easy shot with water short and trouble at the flanks.
Especially if there's a zephyr of a breeze in the air.
Again, the betting window is open for all those who believe that this is a "chip shot"

This robs the hole a tad of the excitement that must have been present in the days of hickory golf clubs when a five wood or long iron was required."

I'm not so sure that the hole didn't play from tees closer to the green in the early days.

How many times have you played this hole ?

[Sven Nilsen]

Enough to know that Modern Apizza is better than either of Pepe's or Sally's.

Enough to know how long of a walk it is from the Golf Course to the Yale Bowl.

Enough to know that the name on the bench by the first tee is that of my old Judo master.

Enough to know that it is possible to run a shot on to the back tier.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Enough to know that Modern Apizza is better than either of Pepe's or Sally's.

Enough to know how long of a walk it is from the Golf Course to the Yale Bowl.

Enough to know that the name on the bench by the first tee is that of my old Judo master.

Enough to know that it is possible to run a shot on to the back tier.

Sven,

How much and how often are you willing to make that bet.

For you, the betting window will remain perpetually open.

I've hit good, low drivers that landed on the first tier and not one of them managed to get more than a foot above the swale leading to the back tier.

Most ended up back in the swale.

And that's with a ProV1 and a graphite shafted Taylor driver.

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

Perhaps that says more about the state of your game than anything else.

As for the standing bet, next time I make it back East with my clubs I'll give you a call.  Stakes are a public apology on this forum, plus dinner at the winner's choice of Pizza place in town, plus any other stakes you wish to name.

Since you asked, here's Geoff Childs words from an older thread (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=32152.0;wap2) -

"In the "good old days" it was most likely impractical to have the front as green due to both agronomical issues and perhaps more importantly the fact that drivers and brassie tee shots over the pond would not stop in the front anyway. That is a totally aerial hole with front pin locations.

Today, its easier to maintain greens AND even a short knocker like me can hit a 4, 5 or 6 iron (into the wind, no wind or a slight tail wind) to front pins and stop the ball before it goes into the swale.

Every time I play Yale I anticipate the pin location on 9 and I must say there is a disappointment whenever a front pin is used.  I'd say its there 80% of the time which I think is about 4 to 5 times more frequently then it should be used.  I'm sure pace of play issues account for this.  Front pins do have their merit as that is the only time the water comes into play at all.

If we can maintain the front section as green BUT firm as Scott would like it then I would keep it as green to increase the variety.  I would pin BACK locations at least 80% of the time."

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

And here are Noel Freeman's words from the same thread:

"But I did see two people this year play the Biarritz the way it was intended.  Mike Policano hit a lefty cut that landed full of chase in the front and went all the way back to 4 feet.  Dr. Childs did the same with a 5-wood into the wind that he hit thin and just made the green and then to 10 feet. Watching the ball come thru the swale the way it was intended was delicious. "

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

Mike Policano and Geoff Childs are two of my favorite people whom I've been fortunate enough to meet through GCA.com.
I'M very fond of both of them, but far from envious of their golf games.

Having played with them on a few occasions, I'm reasonably familiar with their games as well as my game.

Dr Childs isn't hitting a 5-wood into the wind into that green from 215 and getting to the back tier and neither is Mike Policano unless the green was frozen solid when they played it.

As to our bet, include ice cream for dessert at the store at the bottom of the hill.

Geoff's "impractical" comment was made prior to Scott Ramsey's discovery that the front of the green was built as putting surface.

[Mark McKeever]

Pat-After hundreds of plays over thirty years I have never seen number nine at Yale pinned in the swale. The current  head professional who has been there for twenty years advised me that it has never been pinned in the swale for everyday play to his knowledge. Scott Ramsay advises that he has pinned it there a few times for a "greens keepers revenge" tournament or a superintendents outing but never for everyday or tournament play.

I know you said you played it when it was pinned in the swale but it was likely before Scott's tenure which began in 2003.

As to whether or not a shot can be played to the front tier and climb through the swale and to the back portion I have seen it happen albeit rarely.

In my experience a fairway wood hit on a lowish trajectory is the one that has a chance of accomplishing this on rare occasions.

Tim,

Let's look at the facts.

Most fairway woods are 15-19 degrees in loft.
A strong 3-wood would be 13 to 13.5 in loft.

The tee is elevated about 33 or more feet above the lake/green.

Tell me how to hit a "lowish trajectory" fairway wood from a tee ?

I've played a lot of golf and have yet to see anyone perfect a bladed tee shot with a fairway wood.

If I recall correctly, to get to the back of the back tier is about 230-240 and that back tier is sloped pretty well.

I'd like to have the concession on that tee and bet everyone who comes through there, under normal conditions, that they can't hit a fairway wood that will land on the front tier, roll to the swale, down and up the swale and into the meat of the back tier.

Anyone want to take that bet ?

Tim, didn't Joe Bausch pull that exact shot off when we played last??

MM

[Bill Brightly]

Once so inspired, I wonder why he never repeated the two-section green again.

 

Father Time stepped in, sadly early in Raynor's case.  

Bill, in general do you think Biarritz holes work better when the swale is in the green?  Sounds like Yale's does.  I'm curious about others.  Maybe need to consider case by case.  

I think EVERY Biarritz hole should have the front section maitained at green height, and top-dressed and treated as a putting surface. (The only possible exception might be Fishers Island, which I have not played. Perhaps their turf is firm enough at fairway height.) I think that surface is best to promote a running shot that will actually go down the swale and then back up with enough pace to reach the back section. Putting surfaces are harder and faster than fairways on US parkland courses, right? This actually allows older members who really can't hit a "normal" drive 200+ yards to reach the back section. Their balls will roll so much better after landing on a green-height versus fairway-height LANDING area.

I also think the pin should never be cut up front. As Sven states, I feel cheated every time I play our Biarritz and see the pin is up front.

Having said that, there are some cool pin locations when the pin is cut very deep on the front section; where you risk leaving your tee shot in the swale if you go too long. It makes for an excellent greenskeeeper's revenge pin.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

My favourite is the 16th at North Berwick, actually more of a redan Biaritz combo...great hole.
I was not expecting it when I played there and thought all the cool stuff was over and rhen bang!!!!

[Jim Nugent]

I think EVERY Biarritz hole should have the front section maitained at fairway height.

Do you mean at green height?