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Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #75 on: September 16, 2014, 05:26:49 AM »
It is unfair in a number of places and you are likely to lose a ball when you've hit a reasonable shot. If you are keeping score that is frustrating and can effect your opinion of the course.
I guess that was one of my big issues with Perranporth.  I don't mind taking a big score on a hole.  I don't mind picking my ball up.  I don't mind losing a ball if I hit a bad shot.  I don't mind a half-decent but not perfect shot getting punished.  I do mind hitting a good or reasonable shot and losing my ball.  I reckon I lost 6 balls on Wednesday morning last week playing greensomes (all from tee shots).  A couple of those were bad shots, fair enough.  A couple were moderate shots and a couple were decent shots.  Yes the conditions were extreme but I suspect not that rare.  We were playing matchplay and, given the format, the lost balls didn't count (my partner only hit two poor tee shots all round, both on holes where I hit good tee shots) and we won.  Nonetheless I don't think good design results in lost balls from decent shots.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #76 on: September 16, 2014, 05:32:54 AM »
Nonetheless I don't think good design results in lost balls from decent shots.


Mark, this is one of my mantras.

However I will throw one "but" in to the equation. Sometimes land is so severe that there are areas where this can unfortunately happen. Good design is minimising those areas and their impact as much as possible. But it is not always possible to eradicate those areas entirely.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 05:37:54 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Ed Tilley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #77 on: September 16, 2014, 05:43:20 AM »
I would say that the drives on 5,7,12, and 13 are the biggest culprits here as these are the blind drives. Also 8 if you go for the green - in a normal wind this is into the wind so you do have the choice - and also the tee shot on 4, and possibly 17. On most other shots you should be alright unless you hit a bad one or in the wrong place - although you may need to learn where the wrong place is. I'd be interested to know which holes you lost your ball on?

Ed Tilley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2014, 05:46:28 AM »
And also if you were hitting driver? If you were hitting irons on 5, 8, 12, 13, 17 then there is much less chance of losing a ball and they don't really need driver. 7 is the most unfair hole of the lot I think.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #79 on: September 16, 2014, 05:47:07 AM »
Mark

Wearing the pro P'porth hat again, which drives did you think were unreasonable given the conditions?  For mine, #s 4 (maybe in any wind!), 7 (in any wind) and 12.  Of course, there are some approaches which are nuts as well.

P'porth strikes me as a course caught between a rock and hard place.  We all praise natural terrain leading the design, but what to do when there are so many challenging areas without compromising the character of the land?  Then, we have to think back to what tools Braid had at his disposal.  I really couldn't say if a better course could have been routed on that site, but I can say there are some holes which are beyond the pale in a decent eastern breeze (the direction you encountered).  I suspect once one comes to know the course better some of the harder edges of the design can be mitigated with safe play.  If you think of #s 12 & 13, it is easy to pop a shot over the dune rather than bang a driver at the green.  Of course, the approaches will be very demanding if one lays up because the terrain shy of the greens is very humpty bumpty.  Then you turn for 14 and are faced with a monster par 4.  This is an extreme example of the wind from the east being problematic, but its an issue which occurs throughout the round in one degree or another.  

Its a shame you couldn't see the course in the prevailing wind.  While some of the shorter 4s are no longer reachable, overall the design makes a ton more sense.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 05:54:05 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #80 on: September 16, 2014, 06:34:15 AM »
I can't recall all off the top of my head but I hit a decent shot with driver down the right of 2, with a strong right to left and following wind which ran across the fairway into rough on the left and was never seen again.  I'm not sure the 2nd on 2 is a fair shot in most conditions, but that wasn't a problem on either of my two plays of that shot.  4 is a tee shot that relies entirely on luck and I lost a ball there hitting 8I that was well struck and, I imagine, took a kick forward and ran through the back.  I lost a ball on 3 hitting a utility with a shot that hit the left edge of the fairway and ran off to the left, though that was a marginal tee shot having been pulled a bit.  7 I actually thought was fair into the wind, though could be worse downwind.  In the afternoon, playing fourballs I won the hole because my tee shot was the only one of 4 that we could find!  I lost my ball there in the morning.  Not a horrible shot but slightly right of my intended line.  I lost balls on 12 and 13 hitting driver, both fractionally right.  On both those holes my partner was just through the back of the green with his tee shot.

In the wind we played I thought 2 was a lottery, 4 is a lottery in any conditions, I suspect, I couldn't see a conservatiev way to play 8 in that wind, 12 and 13 were very difficult to hit laying up given the need to carry the dune.

14 was a monster.  Ben hit driver really well, I hit my best 3W of the week and we were still 70 yards short of the green.  In the afternoon I hit driver, 3W really well to just reach the green.  Perhaps the most monstrous hole in that wind was 5, after a good drive it was almost impossible to know where to hit a second.  After a good 2nd it was still more than a full 3W to the green!  Again, in the afternoon 4bbb I won the hole as last man standing.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #81 on: September 16, 2014, 08:17:08 AM »
If you can accept that it makes no difference how you play or how you hit a shot, and meet the resulting triumph and disaster and treat these two imposters the same, you'll have enjoyed Perranporth, my son.


Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #82 on: September 16, 2014, 08:28:58 AM »
If you can accept that it makes no difference how you play or how you hit a shot, and meet the resulting triumph and disaster and treat these two imposters the same, you'll have enjoyed Perranporth, my son.
That clearly isn't true.  Whatever my reservations about Perranporth it's clear that to score well there you have to hit a lot of good shots.  We get that you don't like Perranporth but exaggerated criticism like yours doesn't encourage sensible discussion.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #83 on: September 16, 2014, 08:59:16 AM »
If you can accept that it makes no difference how you play or how you hit a shot, and meet the resulting triumph and disaster and treat these two imposters the same, you'll have enjoyed Perranporth, my son.
That clearly isn't true.  Whatever my reservations about Perranporth it's clear that to score well there you have to hit a lot of good shots.  We get that you don't like Perranporth but exaggerated criticism like yours doesn't encourage sensible discussion.

Mark

Despite your haughty comment, your descriptions previously show my criticism is valid rather than exaggeration.

How many balls did you lose from decent shots again?

Exactly.

Ben Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #84 on: September 16, 2014, 09:42:01 AM »
I played with the Cornish County golf captain and he said it was a great place to play county matches as the other team were completly baffled.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #85 on: September 16, 2014, 10:11:33 AM »
If you can accept that it makes no difference how you play or how you hit a shot
Ryan,

I'm struggling with you last post.  This sentence implies that bad shots are as likely to be rewarded by good results as good shots.  My point is that some good shots get bad results.  Those are not the same thing at all.I do not recall seeing a single bad shot at Perranporth get a good result.  I saw several very good shots get very good results.  My problem with the course is that some good shots get bad results.  In particular it is possible to hit a good shot and lose a ball.  Your criticism is exaggeration.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #86 on: September 16, 2014, 11:36:26 AM »
If you can accept that it makes no difference how you play or how you hit a shot
Ryan,

I'm struggling with you last post.  This sentence implies that bad shots are as likely to be rewarded by good results as good shots.  My point is that some good shots get bad results.  Those are not the same thing at all.I do not recall seeing a single bad shot at Perranporth get a good result.  I saw several very good shots get very good results.  My problem with the course is that some good shots get bad results.  In particular it is possible to hit a good shot and lose a ball.  Your criticism is exaggeration.

In which case Mark, it is a truly remarkable course.

Apparently, it is the only links course where luck doesn't work both ways. Always and indeed frequently bad, never good, not even a possibility despite only one play. Good shots result in lost balls and unplayable lies, no bad shot ever gets a good result.....

....come on Mark, really? you got on your high horse for some reason but in essence you agree with me.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #87 on: September 16, 2014, 12:23:33 PM »
Ryan,

Do you genuinely believe there is no correlation between the quality of a shot and its outcome at Perranporth?  That is what you are saying and it's nonsense.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #88 on: September 16, 2014, 01:27:37 PM »
Ryan,

Do you genuinely believe there is no correlation between the quality of a shot and its outcome at Perranporth?  That is what you are saying and it's nonsense.

Mark

I believe the correlation between the quality of a shot and its outcome at Perranporth is far too removed, far too frequently, in conditions that are far from unusual. Not every hole, not every shot, just way too many.

The "nonsensical" comments below are yours rather than mine. I agree with you, even if you now appear to be disagreeing with yourself. Lottery you say?


I do mind hitting a good or reasonable shot and losing my ball.
It is unfair in a number of places and you are likely to lose a ball when you've hit a reasonable shot. If you are keeping score that is frustrating and can effect your opinion of the course.
Nonetheless I don't think good design results in lost balls from decent shots.
In the wind we played I thought 2 was a lottery, 4 is a lottery in any conditions.

Not sure that completely contradicting yourself in the space of a few posts does much for the quality of discussion either, old chum.

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #89 on: September 16, 2014, 01:33:41 PM »
Sean,

When I played Perranporth  this summer I couln't help thinking this site would be a great challenge for the best and the brightest in my profession to route a playable golf course. Intuitively I think we could improve on what Braid did, even without the help of buldozers...
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 12:16:31 PM by Frank Pont »

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #90 on: September 16, 2014, 02:22:44 PM »
Sean,

When I played P this summer I couln't help thinking this site would be a great challenge for the best and the brightest in my profession to route a playable golf course. Intuitively I think we could improve on what Braid did, even without the help of buldozers...

And all the discussion was how long would it take Ben to suggest improvements! ;)
Let's make GCA grate again!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #91 on: September 17, 2014, 03:15:26 AM »
Just remember there is a difference between a well struck ball, and a well advised shot.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #92 on: September 17, 2014, 03:17:44 AM »
Sean,

When I played P this summer I couln't help thinking this site would be a great challenge for the best and the brightest in my profession to route a playable golf course. Intuitively I think we could improve on what Braid did, even without the help of buldozers...

That is exactly what I was thinking about Pennard.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #93 on: September 17, 2014, 04:27:43 AM »
Sean,

When I played P this summer I couln't help thinking this site would be a great challenge for the best and the brightest in my profession to route a playable golf course. Intuitively I think we could improve on what Braid did, even without the help of buldozers...

That is exactly what I was thinking about Pennard.


GJ

You were thinking Pennard's routing could be improved.  Please, lay out that new and improved routing.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #94 on: September 17, 2014, 10:36:36 AM »
Sean,

When I played P this summer I couln't help thinking this site would be a great challenge for the best and the brightest in my profession to route a playable golf course. Intuitively I think we could improve on what Braid did, even without the help of buldozers...

That is exactly what I was thinking about Pennard.



GJ

You were thinking Pennard's routing could be improved.  Please, lay out that new and improved routing.

Ciao

Did you even read Frank's post? Or, did I at some time claim to be the best and the brightest in Frank's profession?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #95 on: September 17, 2014, 10:47:31 AM »
Garland

The interesting thing about a matchup is because both courses have so much character that there aren't many draws on my card.  I have Pennard an easy winner by completely dominating holes 6-10.  I also give wins for #s 4, 13, 15 & 16.  P'porth takes 2, 5, 11, 12, 17 & 18.  1, 3 & 14 are draws.  Final score 9-6 to Pennard. 

If I think both holes are good I use two tie breakers.  1) If one of the holes is a par 3 it will have to be outstanding to beat a 4 or 5 because I think 3s are the easiest holes to build and there is no excuse for an indifferent 3.  2) Because good 5s are so rare, a 3 or 4 will have to be clearly better holes to win the day.

Ciao

Seems 1 should go strongly to Perranporth. 1 at Pennard is straight away, with blind shot into green in bowl. Other than the blind shot it is about as dull as a links hole with fairway movement can get. Perranporth is a good opening hole with thoughtful shot placement asked from the tee, and decision making if the first shot doesn't come off as planned.

Perranporth 1 up after 1.
Pennard concedes the second hole.
Perranporth 2 up after 2.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #96 on: September 17, 2014, 03:47:36 PM »
Sean,

When I played P this summer I couln't help thinking this site would be a great challenge for the best and the brightest in my profession to route a playable golf course. Intuitively I think we could improve on what Braid did, even without the help of buldozers...

That is exactly what I was thinking about Pennard.



GJ

You were thinking Pennard's routing could be improved.  Please, lay out that new and improved routing.

Ciao

Did you even read Frank's post? Or, did I at some time claim to be the best and the brightest in Frank's profession?


GJ

Yes, I read Frank's post, the same Frank who is an architect...so at least he has some idea of what he saying.  Even so, that doesn't mean Frank or anybody is able to re-route Perranporth into a better course yet retain the character of the present design.  I always sense when archies talk of better, they usually mean more conventional, predictable and safer.  I had this conversation with an archie RE Pennard.  There are so few truly original and characterful designs on the planet that folks (especially archies) shouldn't be looking for ways to improve them.  Instead, they should be looking for things they could learn from these unique designs.

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #97 on: September 17, 2014, 04:19:03 PM »
Yes, I read Frank's post, the same Frank who is an architect...so at least he has some idea of what he saying.  Even so, that doesn't mean Frank or anybody is able to re-route Perranporth into a better course yet retain the character of the present design.  I always sense when archies talk of better, they usually mean more conventional, predictable and safer.  I had this conversation with an archie RE Pennard.  There are so few truly original and characterful designs on the planet that folks (especially archies) shouldn't be looking for ways to improve them.  Instead, they should be looking for things they could learn from these unique designs.

Ciao   


Sean, very well put. 

Perranporth was a tough one to evaluate on only one day of play.  With the unusual wind, and direction, the short par 4's were even shorter, the longer holes were even longer.  I was worn out trying to figure out how to play them.  I am glad I got to see it, I am glad I got to attempt to hold my swing and mind together in that wind, but it is hard to give it the credit it may well deserve.  I think the winds were above 30 MPH as some balls were oscillating on the greens that are purposely kept slow.
Amazingly a member in the clubhouse before the round told me it was unfortunate I wasn't going to see the course with any teeth today as he didn't think it would get very windy.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #98 on: September 17, 2014, 04:27:42 PM »
Sean,

I'm not big on rerouting classic courses, eg I would not change the routing at either Cruden Bay or Pennard. However Perranporth might be the exception to the rule. Not so sure about that routing... but maybe none of the best and brightest will find a better routing, it was just an observation.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Peculiarities of PERRANPORTH GC
« Reply #99 on: September 18, 2014, 03:53:25 AM »
Sean,

I'm not big on rerouting classic courses, eg I would not change the routing at either Cruden Bay or Pennard. However Perranporth might be the exception to the rule. Not so sure about that routing... but maybe none of the best and brightest will find a better routing, it was just an observation.

Exactly what I was thinking about Pennard, except it wouldn't be I, but he.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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