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David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #75 on: August 02, 2014, 11:38:26 PM »
For anyone interested in architecture, the saga of the MPCC Dunes renovation history reminds me of the Royal Ontario Museum's history. 

The original building for the ROM was no classic but it was a solid example of neo-Romanesque architecture:



75 years on when more room was needed the museum added the Queen Elizabeth II Terrace Galleries. The additions were not really sympathetic to the original design style but they blended in and were generally well received.





Finally, in 2007 with money apparently being of no object and the powers-that-be at the museum not wedded to a sympathetic renovation of the building, noted snake-oil selling starchitect Daniel Libeskind came to town, the QEII Terraces were torn down and the people of Toronto were left with this:



"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #76 on: August 03, 2014, 12:03:31 AM »
David: perfect description/history lesson on my home town museum. Oh, the powers that be pulled out all the stops, and money was indeed no object, and anyone who voiced displeasure with the proposed design was treated like a country bumpkin....because this was going to put Toronto on the world stage (the retractable roof of the sky dome already having become blah). Years later, I do not know of a single person (sophisticate or bumpkin) who likes it....and that's not even mentioning the problems they had with winter ice and snow continually sliding down those jagged peaks.

Peter

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #77 on: August 03, 2014, 04:24:25 AM »
I actually prefer the Fazio shape green to either of the other two versions. However, besides all that, the backdrop on the original(?) hole is far better than today's or Fazio's version.  I can see the sea hit the shore - muc preferable.  Was there a road behind the green in the old pic and if so, it is a dirt/sand road whch just blends in?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #78 on: August 03, 2014, 08:59:31 AM »

After



First of all, I don't think C&C would design something that looks that way, so the question is moot.

Actually, I see the "after" image as an imitation of the jagged-edged bunker style that is decried by minimalist-haters.  I think it's a clear attempt to make it look like they do exactly the same kind of work as Coore & Crenshaw -- and remember, the two guys who produced this sketch are not Tom Fazio, but young Fazio associates who have spent a fair amount of time getting around to see all the highly-praised courses of the past ten years.

However, I can't believe everyone here is wasting so much breath debating a Photoshop sketch.  You're all suckers.  Drawing something in 2-D does not mean you can build it in 3-D ... and the best work is all about how it plays, not how it looks.  If it was just about Photoshop they could just hire Tommy N. to build the hole.

Thank God it's not all about Photoshop.  But it does seem that more and more people are falling for graphics.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #79 on: August 03, 2014, 10:16:27 AM »
The design from Team Fazio, for this par 3, are over the top and over designed.  The same effect could have been done with more subtley.  They are just playing with styles.  The ground game of the 20 handicapper had more of a chance prior to the re-work.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #80 on: August 03, 2014, 10:19:19 AM »
I don't feel like a sucker.  It's just an odd shape.  The "graphic representation" looks like a green octopus laying on the beach...on a breezy summer day.

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #81 on: August 03, 2014, 11:00:59 AM »
I don't feel like a sucker.  It's just an odd shape.  The "graphic representation" looks like a green octopus laying on the beach...on a breezy summer day.
John,
I'm glad Tom posted what he did as I'm thinking not only me, but most everyone who is actually involved in projects like this knows what a huge difference there is between Photoshop skills and the vision and skill it takes to actually build something. So many have been sold based on presentations and renderings.
Real work has to balance cut and fill, drain, and generally function.
A Photoshop rendering has none of those constraints, and isn't anything close to even a set of construction drawings. It is just a pretty picture but has become oh so important in today's "sales" driven world.

Seems to me that right now we have projects all across the country where 90's era Rees renos are being redone, many by Fazio.

One thing we never talk about is how few renovations are required on modern original designs by the "true" minimalists. Part of that I think is the ethos those guys have about not trying to mine work from old clients. But I also believe that their work is more sustainable, more recognized as something that does not need updating. As much as many here want to label minimalism as a "style" or "trend", what it really is, IMO, is just solid golf course design. Some will find that statement controversial, I find it to be a simple observation.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #82 on: August 03, 2014, 11:09:33 AM »
TD: "However, I can't believe everyone here is wasting so much breath debating a Photoshop sketch.  You're all suckers.  Drawing something in 2-D does not mean you can build it in 3-D ... and the best work is all about how it plays, not how it looks.  If it was just about Photoshop they could just hire Tommy N. to build the hole."

Can't be said often enough. 

Bob

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #83 on: August 03, 2014, 12:42:23 PM »
I don't feel like a sucker.  It's just an odd shape.  The "graphic representation" looks like a green octopus laying on the beach...on a breezy summer day.
John,
I'm glad Tom posted what he did as I'm thinking not only me, but most everyone who is actually involved in projects like this knows what a huge difference there is between Photoshop skills and the vision and skill it takes to actually build something. So many have been sold based on presentations and renderings.
Real work has to balance cut and fill, drain, and generally function.
A Photoshop rendering has none of those constraints, and isn't anything close to even a set of construction drawings. It is just a pretty picture but has become oh so important in today's "sales" driven world.

Seems to me that right now we have projects all across the country where 90's era Rees renos are being redone, many by Fazio.

One thing we never talk about is how few renovations are required on modern original designs by the "true" minimalists. Part of that I think is the ethos those guys have about not trying to mine work from old clients. But I also believe that their work is more sustainable, more recognized as something that does not need updating. As much as many here want to label minimalism as a "style" or "trend", what it really is, IMO, is just solid golf course design. Some will find that statement controversial, I find it to be a simple observation.

Having seen Tim Jackson's work first hand I will go to bat and say he has the talent to deliver more than just a photoshopped picture. His work at Chileno Bay was something I found quite appealing. The natural/rugged transitions that were present some 5 and a half years ago when the course was ready to open were fabulous and would have really set the course apart, at least in the local region. 

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #84 on: August 03, 2014, 12:46:23 PM »
I don't feel like a sucker.  It's just an odd shape.  The "graphic representation" looks like a green octopus laying on the beach...on a breezy summer day.
John,
I'm glad Tom posted what he did as I'm thinking not only me, but most everyone who is actually involved in projects like this knows what a huge difference there is between Photoshop skills and the vision and skill it takes to actually build something. So many have been sold based on presentations and renderings.
Real work has to balance cut and fill, drain, and generally function.
A Photoshop rendering has none of those constraints, and isn't anything close to even a set of construction drawings. It is just a pretty picture but has become oh so important in today's "sales" driven world.

Seems to me that right now we have projects all across the country where 90's era Rees renos are being redone, many by Fazio.

One thing we never talk about is how few renovations are required on modern original designs by the "true" minimalists. Part of that I think is the ethos those guys have about not trying to mine work from old clients. But I also believe that their work is more sustainable, more recognized as something that does not need updating. As much as many here want to label minimalism as a "style" or "trend", what it really is, IMO, is just solid golf course design. Some will find that statement controversial, I find it to be a simple observation.

Hi Don,

I'm getting all riled up this morning.  I hate when I get grouped in with the suckers!

A couple of years back, I wrote that I thought golf course functionality and beauty are essentially the same thing.  I realize there are a few aesthetic properties which can be added, like making the bunkers look like the existing sand, but in general, the best courses seem to have no unnecessary features or adornments.

I've seen thousands of golf holes and pictures of golf holes, and I can't remember seeing anything that looks quite like that mockup.  Maybe it makes me uncomfortable because intuitively it doesn't look like it will function right.  As shown, the front right of the green might collect all the water and be mushy all the time.  Maybe it looks too expensive to maintain.  I'm not sure exactly why I'm uncomfortable with the look, but I am.  It's just not a shape you see.

I've got poison oak.  I'm starting to get itchy.  I'm not trying to claim any expertise.  The mockup looks funny, and difficult.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #85 on: August 03, 2014, 01:03:43 PM »
What surprises me is that all the attention is played to the green. The tenth hole needs to be played to show its merits. I could be wrong on this but I believe that after Raynor died that MacKenzie had a hand in the finished product.

Perhaps someone who has played at MPCC could produce a photo of the falloffs an either side of the green. If a shot is missed off the left a player is faced with a severe slope back to a the green that requires the skill of a Mickleson to hold the shot.. Missed to the right is an equally steep slope running into a stream on its way to the ocean; an immediate lost shot.

In calm weather not too menacing but in the wind a bit of a handful.

Bob

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #86 on: August 03, 2014, 01:17:51 PM »
Forgive my ignorance, but is ten the Redan of the course?

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #87 on: August 03, 2014, 01:35:10 PM »
A quick google search found this early photo of the Monterey Peninsular Country Club on the USGA Site - it looks suspiciously like the 10th.

Needless to say it captures the style of classic golf architecture far better than either the current version or the planned version.



http://www.usga.org/news/2010/January/Golf%E2%80%99s-Golden-Coast--The-Monterey-Bay-Peninsula/

go with this
It's all about the golf!

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #88 on: August 03, 2014, 01:44:57 PM »
Looks like Jackson Kahn Golf Course Design is collaborating in this Fazio redesign.  Some of the photos look interesting, but please make your own call.

http://www.jacksonkahndesign.com/mpcc.html


in the progress with Eugene CC, I can tell you that David Kahn is off the hook with his computer skills, and not just in 2D
as mention above regarding the museum in Toronto, how must a modern approach deliver the goods when simple modern embracement of the past will work?
It's all about the golf!

Derek_Duncan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #89 on: August 03, 2014, 03:38:04 PM »
I thought this thread was about Tom Fazio ruining Seth Raynor's work. Is anyone still arguing that position?


However, I can't believe everyone here is wasting so much breath debating a Photoshop sketch.  You're all suckers.  Drawing something in 2-D does not mean you can build it in 3-D ... and the best work is all about how it plays, not how it looks.  If it was just about Photoshop they could just hire Tommy N. to build the hole.

Thank God it's not all about Photoshop.  But it does seem that more and more people are falling for graphics.


Nobody's being a sucker, Tom, just commenting on a computer image posted. Real or not, it's a depiction of what the architects/builders intend to do with the hole, which is a big departure from the current 10th. As a concept is it interesting, does anyone like it, does it appear an improvement over what's there now? It doesn't exist yet so there's not much to discuss regarding how it plays.

I guess you can question whether they can pull it off, but that's not really the point right now.
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #90 on: August 03, 2014, 04:06:53 PM »
I thought this thread was about Tom Fazio ruining Seth Raynor's work. Is anyone still arguing that position?


However, I can't believe everyone here is wasting so much breath debating a Photoshop sketch.  You're all suckers.  Drawing something in 2-D does not mean you can build it in 3-D ... and the best work is all about how it plays, not how it looks.  If it was just about Photoshop they could just hire Tommy N. to build the hole.

Thank God it's not all about Photoshop.  But it does seem that more and more people are falling for graphics.


Nobody's being a sucker, Tom, just commenting on a computer image posted. Real or not, it's a depiction of what the architects/builders intend to do with the hole, which is a big departure from the current 10th. As a concept is it interesting, does anyone like it, does it appear an improvement over what's there now? It doesn't exist yet so there's not much to discuss regarding how it plays.

I guess you can question whether they can pull it off, but that's not really the point right now.

Derek:

I didn't mean to question whether they can pull it off ... I hear they are talented young men.  I'm questioning whether a computer image is supposed to pass for a real design.  I sure as heck hope this is not what design is coming to -- trying to come up with something in Photoshop that will appeal to a committee, and then actually trying to build it to look like that.  I prefer to build things that fit the ground, not a membership's opinion of a computer image.  For that reason, I generally don't get involved in Photoshop designs. 

A recent exception is at St. George's in Canada, where we are restoring the 3rd green back to its original location as part of the greens reconstruction project.  There was no old photograph from the tee, so Ian Andrew did a Photoshop rendering to appease the membership.  The first version on the ground was built to look like the Photoshop image ... but it didn't fit in very well, so we wound up lowering the green, and asked to restore two bunkers in the foreground that had not been part of the discussion.  I think it's going to be a hell of a lot better now, and I am thankful that the members were not too wedded to the illustration.

Michael Robin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #91 on: August 03, 2014, 04:36:00 PM »
Yes Nigel, 10 is /was Redan. 4 was Biarritz,(A gorgeous one) 7 Eden, 14 Short.

In a conversation with George Bahto, I asked him what he thought 9 was, and said he thought given the green shape and the way it jutted to the right at the last moment, it was a version of Raynor's Prized Dog-Leg.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #92 on: August 03, 2014, 05:38:13 PM »
The only relevancy to the word "sucker" would be a membership/decision making body that would vote/decide to spend 9 million on a renovation of a course that was recently renovated.

I guess I'm a sucker too because the photoshop rendering looks like shit to me.
I could save them at least 4 million because for 5 million I would agree to come in and do nothing ;) ;D
Couldn't be that much harder to sell......
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #93 on: August 03, 2014, 06:38:50 PM »
I have photos of every hole at MPCC. I interviewed at MPCC a few years back.  Obviously I did not get the job, Tom Fazio did but I do remember it being  one of the most enjoyable presentations I have ever given.  My view during the presentation was looking out the window of the house located on the West side of 17 mile dr, that's right, the WEST side.  Watching the waves crash against the rocks was spell binding. I even announced to the attendees if I lost my attention span  during my presentation  that was because I was staring out to the blue Pacific Ocean.  They all had a good chuckle.   I am sorry I didn't get the job.

I said in my Golf Channel interview that  I thought Tom Fazio built really beautiful golf holes he is now building in a really beautiful place.

Tommy  Naccarato was able to do some photo shop work for me and he really did a nice job. We had presented to the club a few ideas and showed before and after photos of potential restoration work. My emphasis was on holes # 9 and 13.  If the club wants to have photo documentation for historical purposes they are still on my computer.

Who knows maybe  Tommy could have built his photoshop holes.

Derek_Duncan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #94 on: August 03, 2014, 10:07:23 PM »
I thought this thread was about Tom Fazio ruining Seth Raynor's work. Is anyone still arguing that position?


However, I can't believe everyone here is wasting so much breath debating a Photoshop sketch.  You're all suckers.  Drawing something in 2-D does not mean you can build it in 3-D ... and the best work is all about how it plays, not how it looks.  If it was just about Photoshop they could just hire Tommy N. to build the hole.

Thank God it's not all about Photoshop.  But it does seem that more and more people are falling for graphics.


Nobody's being a sucker, Tom, just commenting on a computer image posted. Real or not, it's a depiction of what the architects/builders intend to do with the hole, which is a big departure from the current 10th. As a concept is it interesting, does anyone like it, does it appear an improvement over what's there now? It doesn't exist yet so there's not much to discuss regarding how it plays.

I guess you can question whether they can pull it off, but that's not really the point right now.

Derek:

I didn't mean to question whether they can pull it off ... I hear they are talented young men.  I'm questioning whether a computer image is supposed to pass for a real design.  I sure as heck hope this is not what design is coming to -- trying to come up with something in Photoshop that will appeal to a committee, and then actually trying to build it to look like that.  I prefer to build things that fit the ground, not a membership's opinion of a computer image.  For that reason, I generally don't get involved in Photoshop designs. 

A recent exception is at St. George's in Canada, where we are restoring the 3rd green back to its original location as part of the greens reconstruction project.  There was no old photograph from the tee, so Ian Andrew did a Photoshop rendering to appease the membership.  The first version on the ground was built to look like the Photoshop image ... but it didn't fit in very well, so we wound up lowering the green, and asked to restore two bunkers in the foreground that had not been part of the discussion.  I think it's going to be a hell of a lot better now, and I am thankful that the members were not too wedded to the illustration.

Tom,

Is that photoshopped image supposed to pass for real design? Are they claiming it does?

More to the point, it's surprising that you seem to be surprised that architects/builders use photoshopped images to try to get work or make presentations to committees and memberships. On one hand, why wouldn't they? Photoshop can be a valuable tool, pictures are worth a thousand words and all that. It seems like it could be a pretty effective method of demonstrating ideas. Maybe some clubs wouldn't be impressed, but probably lots of others would think it valuable. And on the other had, hasn't this been going on for 15 or 20 years?

I hear what you are saying about building things that fit the ground. You've proven that that's a more truthful--and highly successful--way of building holes. You point out how you deviated from a photoshopped rendition of a hole at St. George's (so it can't be all bad!) when it wasn't coming together on the ground the way it looked on the computer. Do you not think that Fazio's team would do the same if they weren't getting the imagined result, and could explain the edit to the membership?
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #95 on: August 04, 2014, 01:27:04 AM »
More to the point, it's surprising that you seem to be surprised that architects/builders use photoshopped images to try to get work or make presentations to committees and memberships. On one hand, why wouldn't they? Photoshop can be a valuable tool, pictures are worth a thousand words and all that. It seems like it could be a pretty effective method of demonstrating ideas. Maybe some clubs wouldn't be impressed, but probably lots of others would think it valuable. And on the other had, hasn't this been going on for 15 or 20 years?

I hear what you are saying about building things that fit the ground. You've proven that that's a more truthful--and highly successful--way of building holes. You point out how you deviated from a photoshopped rendition of a hole at St. George's (so it can't be all bad!) when it wasn't coming together on the ground the way it looked on the computer. Do you not think that Fazio's team would do the same if they weren't getting the imagined result, and could explain the edit to the membership?

Derek:

My 19-year-old daughter could do a better job of Photoshopping that golf hole than anybody in my office can.  But she can't build a golf hole at all.

We have always gotten a lot of consulting work, because my crew are able to build features that look like the work from 80 years ago, instead of like it was just built yesterday, and because clubs trust that we will take as long as necessary to get the details right.  I didn't bid on the MPCC work -- I don't think the club have any idea what they are doing, honestly -- but I'm very concerned when even the guys on this web site equate the Photoshopped image to an actual design.  If people here do it, surely the average club member would make the same mistake.  I have always thought of Photoshop etc. as strictly sales tools.  Now I'm wondering if I should turn the business over to my daughter!

Mr. Dye never wanted to leave us anything on paper to look at, for fear we'd try to stick too closely to it, or that the client might say he liked the drawing better than what Pete had built.  This is just the next generation of that same argument.

Derek_Duncan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #96 on: August 04, 2014, 10:51:35 AM »

Derek:

My 19-year-old daughter could do a better job of Photoshopping that golf hole than anybody in my office can.  But she can't build a golf hole at all.

We have always gotten a lot of consulting work, because my crew are able to build features that look like the work from 80 years ago, instead of like it was just built yesterday, and because clubs trust that we will take as long as necessary to get the details right.  I didn't bid on the MPCC work -- I don't think the club have any idea what they are doing, honestly -- but I'm very concerned when even the guys on this web site equate the Photoshopped image to an actual design.  If people here do it, surely the average club member would make the same mistake.  I have always thought of Photoshop etc. as strictly sales tools.  Now I'm wondering if I should turn the business over to my daughter!

Mr. Dye never wanted to leave us anything on paper to look at, for fear we'd try to stick too closely to it, or that the client might say he liked the drawing better than what Pete had built.  This is just the next generation of that same argument.

Tom,

Fair enough. I'm not fan of photoshopping prospective holes, either, for the same reason I don't like those illustrated yardage books that depict flat holes in Florida with fairways that roll like Ballybunion--it's utterly fake.

When I see the hole we're discussing I don't know if it's being presented to a membership or committee as what the hole will actually look be like finished. To me it's purely conceptual, and in that regard it could give the membership an idea of what the overall concept for the rebuild will be, i.e. blending features into the dunes, rugged look, windswept, so on and so forth. Seems like photoshop can be an effective tool for that--not actual design.

If it is being presented to them as actual design, then I agree they've got their work cut out for them.

Curious, what do you see as the difference between presenting a committee with photoshopped holes versus presenting them with hand-drawn sketches of proposed holes?
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

Tommy Naccarato

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #97 on: August 07, 2014, 03:20:16 PM »

Derek:

My 19-year-old daughter could do a better job of Photoshopping that golf hole than anybody in my office can.  But she can't build a golf hole at all.

We have always gotten a lot of consulting work, because my crew are able to build features that look like the work from 80 years ago, instead of like it was just built yesterday, and because clubs trust that we will take as long as necessary to get the details right.  I didn't bid on the MPCC work -- I don't think the club have any idea what they are doing, honestly -- but I'm very concerned when even the guys on this web site equate the Photoshopped image to an actual design.  If people here do it, surely the average club member would make the same mistake.  I have always thought of Photoshop etc. as strictly sales tools.  Now I'm wondering if I should turn the business over to my daughter!

Mr. Dye never wanted to leave us anything on paper to look at, for fear we'd try to stick too closely to it, or that the client might say he liked the drawing better than what Pete had built.  This is just the next generation of that same argument.

Tom,

Fair enough. I'm not fan of photoshopping prospective holes, either, for the same reason I don't like those illustrated yardage books that depict flat holes in Florida with fairways that roll like Ballybunion--it's utterly fake.

When I see the hole we're discussing I don't know if it's being presented to a membership or committee as what the hole will actually look be like finished. To me it's purely conceptual, and in that regard it could give the membership an idea of what the overall concept for the rebuild will be, i.e. blending features into the dunes, rugged look, windswept, so on and so forth. Seems like photoshop can be an effective tool for that--not actual design.

If it is being presented to them as actual design, then I agree they've got their work cut out for them.

Curious, what do you see as the difference between presenting a committee with photoshopped holes versus presenting them with hand-drawn sketches of proposed holes?

Derek,
The entire purpose of using Photoshop isn't to build golf holes by, but to give members and idea of what it could possibly look like when finished and which they can present to a committee or membership in terms of acceptance. If an architect wants to get some idea of what it could look like in terms of remodeling, I think its a great tool to utilize. Tom Doak is right though. It doesn't mean I could jump on a dozer or hoe and build a golf hole. That takes both experience and knowledge of the tools you are using. However, daring to dream, and thanks to guys like Jim Urbina, Gil and others, it allows me to exercise what artistic endeavors I have left in me, left when I had stopped oil painting years ago when I was in my teens.

I'd like to point out one other very important point which you mention, and that is building exactly to plan. the courses that do are sort of lifeless to me because they usually fight terrain and other instances--the finer details which Tom, Jim, Kye Goalby and every other talented architect/shaper builds, because they are in fact the true artisans of golf course design. They're the talent. They're building what they see are the possibilities, while knowing how golf shots react, or the type of golf shot they want you to produce.

About seven years ago, Gil Hanse, Jim Wagner, Geoff Shackelford and myself went to an exhibit at the Huntington Library in Pasadena, featuring the furniture and other works of Greene Brothers, widely known as the purveyors of the Art's & Crafts movement in America, more specifically Pasadena and California.  While there, we came across a plan of a table lamp designed by Henry Greene with a wooden base deep set with walnut inlays and a Yellow to Gold salt glass shade. You could see Henry's detail in printing on the plan--just like the same font that is attributed to Frank Lloyd Wright and was used as the main font of Geoff Shackelford's once popular "the Golden Age of Golf Course Design" book. Two steps past the plan was the lamp itself and I was shocked to see that it wasn't accurate at all to the plan. Coming from a draughtsman Father who was a perfectionist, I was stunned! How could this be? The lamp in the plan looked perfect, but I was blinded as to the finish product until I started really looking and then realized that it EXCEEDED the beauty of the plan itself!

Jim Wagner saw me gawking at this, came over and said, "See, nothing ever goes as planned! They found a better way to do it with the materials they were working with. These types of plans are nothing but a guideline. Nothing gets built exactly to plan! Things get refined and their are changes...."

That day at the Huntington Library was probably the most informative if not influential Golf Architecture day of my life!

The Tichenor House plan and the table lamp. (Notice the minute differences!):



Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #98 on: August 07, 2014, 06:37:08 PM »
Tommy,

Nice to see you here. Got to get together in LA this fall!
Tim Weiman

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #99 on: August 07, 2014, 09:10:58 PM »
Shouldn't this thread be titled "MPCC doesn't give a s*@t about Seth Raynor?"

or "MPCC  doesn't give a s*#t about Rees Jones."

Or since they didn't hire him "MPC doesn't give a s*#t about Tom Doak."

It is refreshing to see the work of Rees Jones (who frankly I'm not much of a fan of) defended so vigorously on GCA.  I suspect many are unaware of doing so.

Best title of all: " MPCC doesn't give a s*#t about want we think."

The dogpile on Fazio is unwarranted,  yet so predictable.  You guys are suckers for low hanging fruit.

Bogey

« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 09:15:41 PM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

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