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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2014, 12:31:53 PM »
I don't know about you guys, but I am having fun watching this!

I am myself but it has zero to do with the architecture.  The soft presentation is pissing me off. Neither Bandon or the Sand Hills are this soft no matter how much rain. All these years of listening to the E-peans go on and on about fast a firm has been one of the few parts of my life I wish I could get back.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2014, 02:57:02 PM »
Because golf on great golf courses just isn't that good on television. Sorry, but I've just never really been one for TV golf. The intricacies of a great course are completely lost on TV. Better viewing results at somewhere like Sawgrass. Maybe if 3D ever really takes off that'll change but, as things stand, no where that takes a life time to get your head round is going to appeal when viewed in 2D. Let's be honest here, The Belfry makes for a great Ryder Cup, at least as a TV spectacle. That says nothing about the quality of the course.

Paul, you may be on to something here. I'm not sure that all great golf courses fail to shine through on TV. Pebble Beach is a great course for television viewing, as is Augusta. But we also see those courses on television often enough to become familiar with them and to appreciate some of their subtlety.

I haven't played Hoylake, but I've played Pinehurst and Valhalla. Valhalla presents more uncomfortable shots with intimidating or awkward visuals. It lacks Pinehurst's nuance and complexity, but perhaps that's a good thing for television purposes. As a viewer, it's easy to understand the stakes of each shot before the golfer pulls the trigger, and the clear juxtaposition of a good result vs. a bad one makes for a viewer-friendly experience. Pinehurst's subtlety, as you say, doesn't really come through on television. It's the better course by most architectural measures, but I didn't find it especially compelling on television.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2014, 03:02:35 PM »
Most would think that Jason's comments are more of his trademark idiocy.

Not me. He's spot on. The last two majors have identified a couple of plodding journeymen in Kaymer and Mciroy. No one can seriously argue that these two are amongst the best in the world? The courses have the champions they deserve.

No, what we want is more battles between greats of the game, such as Kenny Perry and Mark Brooks.

Let's not confuse the quality of a tournament with the quality of its champion. The NBA Playoffs consistently identify the best team, while the NCAA Tournament sees more upsets and Cinderella stories. Even an NBA shill like me can't pretend that the NBA Playoffs are more exciting than the NCAA Tournament though. The Opens this year both crowned worthy champions in a boring event.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2014, 03:11:00 PM »
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Matthew Lloyd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2014, 08:50:06 PM »
It appears that many of the predictions advanced here could be coming true this weekend.  This course does have a knack for producing drama and excitement. Great leaderboard right now.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2014, 10:26:14 AM »
I've long thought Valhalla was a very interesting driving course for the average player, as the angled landing areas give wide aiming cones from the tee with decisions to be made on many holes. I didn't necessarily expect this to apply to the pros, but from the ground on Thursday, it was clear that players were taking very different lines off certain tees. 7 is an obvious example, but there were many others. On 1, about half the players went straight off the tee and ended up around 150-160 yards out on the right side of the fairway. Other players challenged the grove of trees left and cut the dogleg to leave a shorter approach from a more advantageous angle, with poorly struck drives getting tangled in the pines. Challenging the inside bunker on 5 gives a similar benefit.

Watching this, it struck me that perhaps Valhalla promises more "reward" when it presents risk/reward scenarios than other courses. Cutting doglegs doesn't just give a shorter approach, but in many cases also gives a better angle. It's not a course that lends itself to conservatively plotting around. Instead, players really need to take a bit of risk to avoid constantly being stuck with long approaches from awkward angles. As a result, players can get hot quickly and make a run, but will still get burned a few times in a round. We saw it with Rory at 10 and 11 on Thursday, and at 2 on Friday, and we've seen it with other players throughout the tournament. It leads to a nice ebb and flow of players making runs and then falling back.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2014, 11:28:44 AM »
Warwick Hills in Louisville. What a test!  Spell cat. Spell dog. Roll over and snore.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2014, 04:28:46 PM »
One thing about 18, I found interesting watching the last few days is how most of the players hit great approach shots to set up easy birdies. Almost every one I saw that laid up bogeyed the hole though. Just found it interesting.

Brent Hutto

Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2014, 04:50:19 PM »
I've long thought Valhalla was a very interesting driving course for the average player, as the angled landing areas give wide aiming cones from the tee with decisions to be made on many holes. I didn't necessarily expect this to apply to the pros, but from the ground on Thursday, it was clear that players were taking very different lines off certain tees. 7 is an obvious example, but there were many others. On 1, about half the players went straight off the tee and ended up around 150-160 yards out on the right side of the fairway. Other players challenged the grove of trees left and cut the dogleg to leave a shorter approach from a more advantageous angle, with poorly struck drives getting tangled in the pines. Challenging the inside bunker on 5 gives a similar benefit.

Watching this, it struck me that perhaps Valhalla promises more "reward" when it presents risk/reward scenarios than other courses. Cutting doglegs doesn't just give a shorter approach, but in many cases also gives a better angle. It's not a course that lends itself to conservatively plotting around. Instead, players really need to take a bit of risk to avoid constantly being stuck with long approaches from awkward angles. As a result, players can get hot quickly and make a run, but will still get burned a few times in a round. We saw it with Rory at 10 and 11 on Thursday, and at 2 on Friday, and we've seen it with other players throughout the tournament. It leads to a nice ebb and flow of players making runs and then falling back.

To an extent the Ocean Course offers some of the same driving you're describing. Which worked out well for Rory, of course!

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2014, 06:00:17 PM »
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2014, 07:01:36 PM »
Am I the only one ticked off that every bunker seems to feed the ball back to the middle? And the bunker surfaces are so perfectly groomed, there seems to be ZERO penalty for being in one.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2014, 07:12:04 PM »
Am I the only one ticked off that every bunker seems to feed the ball back to the middle? And the bunker surfaces are so perfectly groomed, there seems to be ZERO penalty for being in one.

You mean like Royal Melbourne?

As much as I despise the intentional pattern-ing of a golf course through mowing, my reaction is multiplied when bunkers get patterned. At least Valhalla isn't that......

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2014, 07:25:48 PM »
Here's what I wrote on July 20.

"...the scoring spread [at Hoylake] can and likely will be bigger/higher than it will be at Valhalla. In short, perhaps architecture that's more interesting and nuanced doesn't automatically lead to more exciting tournaments, especially if what we mean by exciting is having a whole bunch of golfers bunched together coming down the stretch on Sunday."

Thanks for coming out ladies and gentlemen. Goodnight...

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2014, 08:26:59 PM »
Maybe it's because Valhalla is just like every other PGAT course and neither Pinehurst nor Hoylake is.

The only difference between this tournament and a regular tour stop is substituting the bottom 25 US PGAT players for 25 good international players.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2014, 08:29:25 PM »
Or, PP, good architecture does make for good tournaments.  On one thread around here you'll find people begging to have a tournament at a GCA darling because it would be more interesting and on another, you'll find people saying good architecture doesn't make for good tournament golf.

Maybe, just maybe, Valhalla is an interesting golf course with lots of strategy it's just in the treehouse it's got the fact that it isn't a Doak or a C&C working against it.  Then again, most in here haven't been or haven't played bit that certainly hasn't stopped the trashing of a Nicklaus course.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2014, 08:32:18 PM »
Maybe it's because Valhalla is just like every other PGAT course and neither Pinehurst nor Hoylake is.

The only difference between this tournament and a regular tour stop is substituting the bottom 25 US PGAT players for 25 good international players.

Logical. Flawlessly logical.

Mr. Spock - First Office, U.S.S. Enterprise.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2014, 08:39:07 PM »
JC - I'm not sure if you're right or not, but I have eyes and this stern championship test is a wet 7500 yard par 71 with thick rough, where if you hit it in the fairway (and/or far enough) you can score well, which means that we have 20 guys all bunched up with a chance to win tomorrow. Yes, that is one way to make a tournament interesting to watch, "exciting" even.

Peter

Brent Hutto

Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2014, 08:56:38 PM »
JC - I'm not sure if you're right or not, but I have eyes and this stern championship test is a wet 7500 yard par 71 with thick rough, where if you hit it in the fairway (and/or far enough) you can score well, which means that we have 20 guys all bunched up with a chance to win tomorrow. Yes, that is one way to make a tournament interesting to watch, "exciting" even.

Peter

Any noble-sounding idea of "identifying" blah, blah, blah aside surely the prime purpose of every Major Championship is to provide an exciting television event. Hopefully keeping as many as possible popular players in the mix all the way until the end.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2014, 09:02:13 PM »
Brent - yes, I agree.

So, to come full circle: is that "why Valhalla is so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake"?

Peter

Brent Hutto

Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2014, 09:05:18 PM »
I'm afraid I agree with Mark's frequent comment that we're just attributing meaning to random events. I think if you help 100 majors each at Pinehurst, Hoylake and Valhalla you'd get roughly the same mix of exciting championships and blowouts at each. All three have suffiicient quality to allow great players to show their greatness. It's just that greatness is fickle on a week-to-week basis and there are dozens of near-great players who can luck out and have their best (greatest?) week of the decade happen to occur during some major or another.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2014, 09:49:19 PM »
I honestly don't know why Valhalla is so much better than ... Anything!

Seeing it on TV, I don't think I'd go out of my way 3 minutes, let alone 3 hours, to play there.  And I don't think I'd be willing to pay more than $50 to play it.  It actually looks kinda crappy to me, to be dead flat honest. 

Not to put to fine a point on it  :)

Brent - yes, Mark B is probably right.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2014, 10:00:20 PM »
There is not much question that on this soft long, and TPC design course, we have a leaderboard of the best current talent in the game.  Let's face it, we are watching a course that is not designed for any of us on this board, including the top 5 GCA.com players who could break 75 on this Valhala.  

The question of whether this Valhalla is as good or better than Pinehurst of Hoylake, is only based on the criteria of these elite players and if it is a venue that brings out close and quality competition that demands all the best skills of swinging a golf club in combination with sound mental skills.  I think it does that.  Did Pinehurst and Hoylake equally demand the best skills, yes I think so.

But, if we play Valhalla or Pinehurst or Hoylake set up to our skills, then we may have a greatly different set of attitudes and appreciation for which design is better.  99% of we GCA.com players can not relate to the game and field of play as presented at any of these venues.  But set up to our standards, there may be a stronger preference for the old classic courses that had different design philosophy and intent of the architects to take the skills of the average joe into account.  I doubt Valhalla has those same basic considerations of design.   But, I really don't now since I never played it.

Who here has played Valhalla from a 6200-6600 distance with more forgiving FW lines/width and such?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2014, 10:09:51 PM »
Because the course is set up by club pros instead of lawyers, accountants, and CEO's?

An oversimplification I'm sure, but you get my drift.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2014, 10:13:36 PM »
Honestly it has a lot of width, but the greens play very small due to the angles and bunkering. There are no straight holes either. It's interesting to see some of the strategies the pros employee as well. 15 they are all favoring the right side choosing to go at Floyd's Fork in a perpendicular fashion rather than hugging the left side and having it be in play for a miss right.  The strategy on 7 seems random to me though.  It's a very playable course from 6500 yards.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2014, 10:43:58 PM »
I have said it before and I will say it again.

ANY course with sufficiently long yardage can host a major and produce a fine, entertaining event.

Only people in this tree house care that majors be hosted in architecturally significant places.

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