[JHoulihan]

First, thanks to Scott McWethy and the GCA group for the great round a few weeks ago at Black Sheep.
Second, thanks to Ran for allowing me to be an interactive member to the site.

I have thought about my first topic for years.
I think I have many to be discussed, but this one is most recent with hours of TV coverage this week.
This is the 100 year anniversary for the course build at this week’s PGA tour stop.
TPC Old White at the Greenbrier resort in West Virginia.
I think I have heard more architecture references this week than any other course on tour.
I wanted to put together a scorecard/hole description/hole reference to follow.
I know that many may have better examples, but here goes.

TPC Old White
Architect = CB McDonald (1914)
7287 yards/Slope 141
Hole #1 = First = 449 = Par 4
Hole #2 = Hog’s Back = 488 = Par 4
Hole #3 = Biarritz = 205 = Par 3
Hole #4 = Racetrack = 427 = Par 4
Hole #5 = Mounds = 388 = Par 4
Hole #6 = Lookout = 471 = Par 4
Hole #7 = Plateau = 430 = Par 4
Hole #8 = Redan = 234 = Par 3
Hole #9 = Punchbowl = 404 = Par 4
Outgoing 9 = 3496 = Par 34
Hole #10 = Principals Nose = 385 = Par 4
Hole #11 = Meadow = 493 = Par 4
Hole #12 = Long = 568 = Par 5
Hole #13 = Alps = 492 = Par 4
Hole #14 = Narrows = 401 = Par 4
Hole #15 = Eden = 217 = Par 3
Hole #16 = Cape = 444 = Par 4
Hole #17 = Oaks = 616 = Par 5
Hole #18 = Home = 175 = Par 3
Incoming 9 = 3791 = Par 36
Total 18 = 7287 = Par 70

Primary/original template holes
Hole #1 = First = 449 = Par 4
Hole #2 = Hog’s Back = 488 = Par 4
Hole #3 = Biarritz = 205 = Par 3 (3rd Hole @ Club de Biarritz – France = Unknown original distance)
Middle of green bisected by a chasm/valley up to several feet deep and typically surrounded by 4 corner bunkers surround each corner of the rectangle shaped green
Hole #4 = Racetrack = 427 = Par 4
Hole #5 = Mounds = 388 = Par 4
Hole #6 = Lookout = 471 = Par 4
Hole #7 = Plateau = 430 = Par 4
Hole #8 = Redan = 234 = Par 3 (15th hole @ North Berwick – Scotland = 192 = Par 3)
High right to low left green set on a 45 degree angle from the tee
Hole #9 = Punchbowl = 404 = Par 4 (9th hole @ Royal Liverpool/Hoylake – England = 198 = Par 3)
Bunkers nearby with narrow green having complex swails if you happen to hit the surface
Outgoing 9 = 3496 = Par 34
Hole #10 = Principals Nose = 385 = Par 4 (16th hole @ TOC – Scotland = 423 = Par 4)
Cluster of 3 bunkers in fairway landing area resembling a nose
Hole #11 = Meadow = 493 = Par 4
Hole #12 = Long = 568 = Par 5 (14th hole @ TOC – Scotland = 618 = Par 5)
Out of bounds down right side and group of bunkers on left side squeezing in driving area
Hole #13 = Alps = 492 = Par 4 (17th Hole @ Old Prestwick – Scotland = 394 = Par 4)
Blind approach shot over a dune to a tightly defended green complex
Hole #14 = Narrows = 401 = Par 4 (15th hole @ Muirfield – Scotland = 447 = Par 4)
Driver possible play, but smarter play is iron placed short of 250-290 yard bunkers protecting both left and right sides
Hole #15 = Eden = 217 = Par 3 (11th hole @ TOC – Scotland = 174 = Par 3)
Shallow green with severe front to back pitch, fronted by pot bunker, and framed to rear by water/river
Hole #16 = Cape = 444 = Par 4 (14th hole @ National Golf Links of America = 393 = Par 4)
All about risk and reward: generally playing around a large lateral hazard of some sort, where players bite off what they dare, allowing more risky tee shot to deliver easier second shot into green
Hole #17 = Oaks = 616 = Par 5 (17th hole @ TOC – Scotland = 495 = Par 4)
Famous “Road hole” replicated by danger/railway sheds on right, bunker short of green, and road directly behind green
Hole #18 = Home = 175 = Par 3 (See Hole #9 description = Punchbowl)

I have not played these courses directly, so I hope to hear from many of you that have.
Any descriptions or better template holes are certainly welcome to be added or discussed.
Hope all have a happy holiday weekend, and get out onto the course if at all possible.

Justin Houlihan
Chicago, IL

[Tom_Doak]

Justin:

Among the participants in the Discussion Group is Lester George, who did most of the restoration work on Old White.  Hopefully he will chime in on your thread ... although I'm not sure he is a big fan of the Tour's involvement and input on the design.

Can you describe the 5th hole and its "Mounds"?  I wonder if it is a version of the Leven hole which Macdonald and Raynor used often.

P.S.  They renamed it TPC Old White?  Jesus.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Justin,

Welcome to the board. A long-running discussion on here, almost a gag considering the stakes of being right or wrong on this are so low , is the definition of a Cape. The proper definition is a *green* jutting out into water or even into air. None of the MacRayBanks trio to my knowledge ever wrote about a diagonal tee shot over water. A Cape does not have to involve a diagonal tee shot (over water or anything else) to be a Cape.

Here is George Bahto writing about it:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,3060.0.html

This is one of two 'vampire myths' on GCA.com -- until we find a way to drive a pine stake through a virtual discussion it is our unceasing burden to beat it back again and yet it refuses to die. (The other myth: the 12th at Augusta was modeled after Stoke Poges' 7th. SP's 7th served as inspiration for the *original* 16th at ANGC.)

Helpfully,

[Nigel Islam]

Say what you want about TV commentators, but they bring a smile to my face when they reference the hole names.

[Sven Nilsen]

18 is the Short.  The thumbprint feature is highly pronounced at Old White.

As for the Biarritz, the hole CBM saw in France was not the 3rd hole, but rather the 12th.  The famous 3rd hole (the "chasm") was gone by the time he visited the course, and it is another misconception that his Biarritz template had anything to do with the drive over the cliffs required by that hole.  

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,21926.0.html

[Joey Chase]

A long-running discussion on here, almost a gag considering the stakes of being right or wrong on this are so low , is the definition of a Cape. The proper definition is a *green* jutting out into water or even into air. None of the MacRayBanks trio to my knowledge ever wrote about a diagonal tee shot over water. A Cape does not have to involve a diagonal tee shot (over water or anything else) to be a Cape.

I am surprised by this.  I always felt that Mid Ocean's Cape hole was more about tee shot placement than the green "jutting out" into the pond.  If you are able to leave your tee shot closer to the pond, the right side of the green almost acts as a backstop for your approach.  Sure, it is unique, in their oeuvre, but it is among the best I have played and feel that the "cape" nature of the tee shot is integral.

[JHoulihan]

Tom,

Hole #5 description from the tee. Fairly straight par 4 with multiple mounds perpendicular to the faiway direction. The second mound has a angled/diagonal bunker to the right of the fairway. The fairway and green are seperated by a small creek. The green has a small bunker to the right side. Left side of green has 4-5 "grass bunkers" with no sand but longer length grass instead.

I then read the description of the leven hole at Mid Ocean Club. They do not seem to have similar characteristics to me, but best to ask the "consulting architect."

Justin

[Tom Bacsanyi]

P.S.  They renamed it TPC Old White?  Jesus.

Well, not to split hairs, but it's the Old White TPC.  Still, file that one under "Is Nothing Sacred?"

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

The most important positive result of this event is that it is serving as a wonderful introduction for many viewers to classic golf architecture.  And a bonus is that the players are speaking with enthusiasm on how much they enjoy playing courses like this and wish more modern courses had such design elements.

[Mark Bourgeois]

The most important positive result of this event is that it is serving as a wonderful introduction for many viewers to classic golf architecture.  And a bonus is that the players are speaking with enthusiasm on how much they enjoy playing courses like this and wish more modern courses had such design elements.

YASSSSSS!

Joey, just relaying the words of Macdonald and the research of Bahto and others. You're welcome to disagree with their definition (which BTW corresponds to the dictionary definition of 'cape,' while the angled-drive one does not) if you'd like. 

Even more helpfully,

[Joe Bausch]

P.S.  They renamed it TPC Old White?  Jesus.

Well, not to split hairs, but it's the Old White TPC.  Still, file that one under "Is Nothing Sacred?"

It is actually The Old White TPC.

I guess they sort of fancy themselves to be like that state school in Columbus, OH.   

[Tom Bacsanyi]

P.S.  They renamed it TPC Old White?  Jesus.

Well, not to split hairs, but it's the Old White TPC.  Still, file that one under "Is Nothing Sacred?"

It is actually The Old White TPC.

I guess they sort of fancy themselves to be like that state school in Columbus, OH.   

Two Buckeyes are riding in the back of a car.  What do you call the driver?





"Officer."

[Sven Nilsen]

Question for Tom, Jim and Brad.

Were the five mounds at the 5th at TOW an inspiration for the mounds created on the front of the 18th green at Old MacDonald?

Sven

[Jud_T]

Were the 2nd and/or 6th par 5's originally?

[Carl Rogers]

This is the only accessible McDonald-Raynor I know of.  Are there any more?  It is a bit pricey.

[Tom_Doak]

Question for Tom, Jim and Brad.

Were the five mounds at the 5th at TOW an inspiration for the mounds created on the front of the 18th green at Old MacDonald?

Sven:

No, they weren't.

I've only been to The Greenbrier once, when we interviewed for the restoration job in the mid-2000's.  Jim didn't go with me, I don't think he's seen it at all.  Anyway, to the best of my memory, those particular mounds were not there when I saw the course ... they were "restored" from scratch by Lester.  [Hopefully he'll correct me if I just forgot them.]

The 18th green at Old Macdonald is an exaggerated version of Macdonald's Punchbowl green [the 6th at The Creek and the 12th at Chicago Golf are our favorites].  It was Jim's idea to take the fronting ridge and break it up, with a big separate mound at the front.


Carl:

Mid Ocean is actually an accessible Macdonald course ... and a better one.  But it's not cheap to play, either.

[Sven Nilsen]

Question for Tom, Jim and Brad.

Were the five mounds at the 5th at TOW an inspiration for the mounds created on the front of the 18th green at Old MacDonald?

Sven:

No, they weren't.

I've only been to The Greenbrier once, when we interviewed for the restoration job in the mid-2000's.  Jim didn't go with me, I don't think he's seen it at all.  Anyway, to the best of my memory, those particular mounds were not there when I saw the course ... they were "restored" from scratch by Lester.  [Hopefully he'll correct me if I just forgot them.]

The 18th green at Old Macdonald is an exaggerated version of Macdonald's Punchbowl green [the 6th at The Creek and the 12th at Chicago Golf are our favorites].  It was Jim's idea to take the fronting ridge and break it up, with a big separate mound at the front.


Carl:

Mid Ocean is actually an accessible Macdonald course ... and a better one.  But it's not cheap to play, either.

Tom:

Was the ridge a natural feature, or was it created by using materials dug out to create the punchbowl effect?  If the latter, there is a bit of a symmetry in the creation of the mounds at TOW and the bisected ridge at OM.

Sven

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

Was the ridge a natural feature, or was it created by using materials dug out to create the punchbowl effect?  If the latter, there is a bit of a symmetry in the creation of the mounds at TOW and the bisected ridge at OM.

Sven

The ridge at the back of the green at Old Macdonald is natural.  The area of the green surface was pretty flat, at the existing grade, with nothing at all in front of it; the mounds are all imported fill.  I guess that's similar to what Lester did, and maybe to what Macdonald did at Old White, but we didn't use it as reference.

[Bill_McBride]

This is the only accessible McDonald-Raynor I know of.  Are there any more?  It is a bit pricey.

Mountain Lake is accessible but again pretty pricey as you have to stay in the lodge.  It's all worth it to,play a low key Raynor. 

[Jerry Kluger]

I spoke to George Bahto about this when we were at Bandon for a preview of Old MacDonald.  George's book had noted that the original Cape hole at NGLA had the green jutting out from the water but as noted it had been changed.  He basically said that the term had now evolved into a hole with a diagonal tee shot over water or some other hazard.  He didn't seem to have a problem with it and felt it was good strategic architecture.

[Paul Jones]

This is the only accessible McDonald-Raynor I know of.  Are there any more?  It is a bit pricey.

Mountain Lake is accessible but again pretty pricey as you have to stay in the lodge.  It's all worth it to,play a low key Raynor. 

Bill,

Are you sure about that?  When I went, I had to be sponsored by a member.

[Tim_Weiman]

One of my favorite rounds of golf ever was on the Old White on a day the course was closed but opened just for me by the former owners CSX railroad. Never had that happen before and surely won't ever again. Nice to have friends in high places!

Wonderful course. Hate the new name.

[Sean_A]

I spoke to George Bahto about this when we were at Bandon for a preview of Old MacDonald.  George's book had noted that the original Cape hole at NGLA had the green jutting out from the water but as noted it had been changed.  He basically said that the term had now evolved into a hole with a diagonal tee shot over water or some other hazard.  He didn't seem to have a problem with it and felt it was good strategic architecture.

Jerry, not that George has ownership of the definition, but I agree, for better or worse the term "Cape" has morphed into a tee shot over water to an angled fairway (though many will say over sand or any "hazard").  What bothered me about this is a little course in Norfolk and a few wee courses in Scotland had this type shot long before MacRaynor came on the scene.  So, it may have been best to stick to the orginal idea of an approach to a peninsula green as the definition.  This template stuff can be a messy business.

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

This is the only accessible McDonald-Raynor I know of.  Are there any more?  It is a bit pricey.

Mountain Lake is accessible but again pretty pricey as you have to stay in the lodge.  It's all worth it to,play a low key Raynor. 

Bill,

Are you sure about that?  When I went, I had to be sponsored by a member.

I thought I heard you could approach the club directly and arrange a stay in the Colony House but I'm probably wrong. I was sponsored my only visit. 

[Jud_T]

You can play the 9-holder at Hotchkiss.

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