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Dean Stokes

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Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« on: July 04, 2014, 05:11:35 PM »
Finally! Nobilo just talked about rough stopping the ball going into bunkers-one of my biggest peeves with golf course set up. I have always said that the entry into the bunker should always be mowed at fairway height to let a bad shot get to the hazard.....I am sure this has been talked about before but I hadn't heard it on tv.
Do many golf courses do this for a cost of maintenance  issue?
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2014, 05:16:41 PM »
Dean,

I think the concept had it's origins in the realm of "fairness"

The good news is that I've seen more clubs begin to eliminate the buffers of rough fronting bunkers.

Atlantic has done a great job and so has Mountain Ridge.
The fairways go right up to the edge of the bunker.

While it may involve more labor and costs to maintain, I think it's a great improvement.

Dean Stokes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2014, 05:25:42 PM »
As do I Pat. I also happen to think it looks so much better both on the fairway and green side.
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2014, 05:36:04 PM »
    Recently played The Valley Club.  Fairways and greens mowed directly to bunkers.  Couldn't have been more perfect!

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2014, 05:46:38 PM »
Afraid to say that, as I write this, my home links has longer grass around many of the bunkers. I am awaiting a response to my letter concerning this and a number of other crimes against architecture. I have vowed to myself to make no further comment until the new committee members have at least had a fair chance to get it wrong!
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2014, 06:13:37 PM »
Fairway direct to Bunker, does it take more or less time in terms of maintenance?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2014, 10:39:31 PM »

Afraid to say that, as I write this, my home links has longer grass around many of the bunkers. I am awaiting a response to my letter concerning this and a number of other crimes against architecture. I have vowed to myself to make no further comment until the new committee members have at least had a fair chance to get it wrong!

Paul,

I'm surprised to hear that.

I always thought that the UK almost universally mowed the fairways right up to the bunkers.

I've never understood the desire to protect a poor shot from the intended consequences.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2014, 10:40:49 PM »

Fairway direct to Bunker, does it take more or less time in terms of maintenance?

Ryan,

I would imagine that it takes more time, unless a club has a small riding mower capable of maneuvering in tight areas


Neil Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2014, 11:35:24 PM »
One similar pet peeve I have is an "island" of rough in the middle of a large bunker, sometimes to the point where your ball can be lost.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2014, 05:01:40 AM »

Fairway direct to Bunker, does it take more or less time in terms of maintenance?

Ryan,

I would imagine that it takes more time, unless a club has a small riding mower capable of maneuvering in tight areas


Depends. I know some clubs that have to send out a walk mower to mow these fairway tie in to not have wear or compaction areas. Many machines are not set up with the reel out wide enough to NOT have a tire right on the bunker edge.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2014, 07:29:02 AM »

Afraid to say that, as I write this, my home links has longer grass around many of the bunkers. I am awaiting a response to my letter concerning this and a number of other crimes against architecture. I have vowed to myself to make no further comment until the new committee members have at least had a fair chance to get it wrong!

Paul,

I'm surprised to hear that.

I always thought that the UK almost universally mowed the fairways right up to the bunkers.

I've never understood the desire to protect a poor shot from the intended consequences.


And the common ground continues!  ;D

To be fair, we are only talking about 'first cut' length but it still angers me, particularly when it provides an excuse to pinch green approaches on both sides. For all the talk on another thread of the unpleasant growth of long grass at Renaissance, I can't help but look at those bunkers and what surrounds them with envious eyes.

I could say a lot but, as stated, I'm going to give the new committee members fair chance to address my concerns. I imagine I'll be a polite 'noted but this is our moment in the sunshine' response but won't speak ill of them until they've had reasonable time to act.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 07:32:12 AM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2014, 07:44:26 AM »
I thought the reason was that the sandy area near a bunker could cause equipment to wear out more quickly?

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2014, 09:56:07 AM »
Dan,

I really don't know and would be very interested to hear from someone that can genuinely explain it.

My suspicion has long been that those areas right up close to a bunker tend to look rather patchy when mown closely, causing massive offence to the Lawn Admiration Society.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2014, 10:29:40 AM »
You rarely (I can't think of the last time I saw it) see a bunker surrounded by rough in Australia.

Pete Garvey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2014, 12:11:42 PM »
Dean,

On Ron Prichard's visit this past fall he had instructed us to increase bent grass (fairway) areas in the bunker fronts to allow misaligned shots to enter the bunkers.  Hopefully on your next visit to Idle Hour you will "experience" the changes.   :)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2014, 12:27:21 PM »

I thought the reason was that the sandy area near a bunker could cause equipment to wear out more quickly?

Dan,

What "sandy area" ?

This is at the back of the bunker, not on the greenside


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2014, 12:33:10 PM »

You rarely (I can't think of the last time I saw it) see a bunker surrounded by rough in Australia.

Mike,

I always thought the same thing about courses in the UK as well.

I've always felt that it was strictly an American practice, intended to introduce a maintenance safety net to protect marginal and errant shots from entering the bunker.  A concession to "fairness".

In general, when I look at photos from the teens, 20's and 30's, the courses look far more rugged, far more penal, and yet, as equipment has improved drastically over the intervening years, the golf courses have been neutered.  WHY ?

I contend that the influences of "fairness" and "feminization" are the cause.

Let the furor begin  :D


Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2014, 02:20:55 PM »
Is the evolution of mowers involved in this matter?

I asked a yee olde chap who was once upon a time a head greenkeeper at a parkland course about this matter. His reply was that in his day, when fairway mowing was by tractor pulled gang-mower, mowing right up to the edge of a bunker was difficult to achieve so some sort of rough collar was likely. He then added that these days, with the availability of modern ride-on mowers, he'd be disappointed if there was any rough or collar next to the bunker edge.

Just passing on what I was told.

atb

Dean Stokes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2014, 04:57:03 PM »
@Pete Garvey....I certainly wasn't talking about Idle Hour but now I think about it I agree that many of the bunkers could do with a haircut at the entry points. What a great course by the way.
Ps. The way I played this year was definitely bad enough to insure my invite will get "lost in the mail" next year!!!
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Malcolm Mckinnon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2014, 11:26:29 PM »
There has been some discussion regarding this issue at my home club, Springdale in NJ where the strategic fairway bunkering that still exists is ensconced in thick rough.

Another member as well as myself participated in the GCA tour of Paramount GC last year and we were deeply impressed by the cutting of fairway length grass directly into the bunkers and think that it could enhance the threat that the fairway bunkers present. Yet, there are reservations.

We consider ourselves a "classic" William Flynn renovation course. What would Flynn think? Is this traditional or not?

I say, who cares! Cutting the fairways into the bunkers will instill more links like play to the course. That alone is an enhancement and not a detriment in my view.

Glen View Club outside of Chicago which is a similar Flynn redesign just rebuilt all of their bunkers to this standard and my friend who is a member there is ecstatic with praise for the strategic enhancement that the new "welcoming" bunkers have provided to their test of a golf course.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2014, 04:24:17 AM »
I was always led to believe that cart traffic was an issue for fairways running into bunkers.  Golfers being what they are, want their tools next to their work.  Parking/driving next to bunkers isn't clever.  I think for a decent percentage of clubs this message can be successfully communicated by the greenstaff and members will park away from bunkers.  For public courses and some other clubs, its a hopeless task and so easy to understand why a buffer is often a good idea in terms of damage control.   

My question is if we are starting to see fairways pushed to bunkers, are we now going to see the widening of fairways near greens?  Countless clubs neck fairways down on the approach to greens for some very odd reason.  Often times, there are bunkers being stranded, but often times the bunkers sit back more on the wings of the greens on the fronts and narrowing is still done.  I recall seeing a PA course recently allter some grass lines around greens to go around bunkers, it did look weird because I am so used to seeing US parkland courses with necked entrances, but surely wider grass lines makes far more sense.

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

ChipRoyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2014, 06:42:54 AM »
Same issue here, except that the area around the bunkers is left LONGER than the rest of our rough.
Makes no sense to me; thought the idea was for the bunker to be the primary challenge. Instead horrible bermuda rough (4"+) and the chance of having a horrible stance (standing in bunker to play shot in rough collar).

Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2014, 06:47:05 AM »
is there a question of practical design here.

I cant think of many of my clubs bunkers being in the rough, but then on observation, they are designed in a way that seems to allow the lads to run the mowers right to edge, or at least the edges facing back to the player.  No silly pot things, or funny rounded edges or mounds, but simple sand belt style where the back edge is at fairway height, that not only allows balls to readily run in, but makes mowing easy.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2014, 08:18:38 AM »
I see two types - one is the one pass of rough mow at 5-6 feet, for maintenance reasons described by Anthony.  Edges are always hard to maintain, and I suspect maintaining a fw/bunker edge is even harder.  It might end up that the turf in front of the bunker is even rougher than rough in some cases.  Add in that most courses are trying to take bunkers out of play for speed of play reasons, or at least have been.  If you look back at the 50-60's era books on architecture (thinking Cornish-Graves and others) they recommended building fw bunkers up above fw grade, mostly for visibility, but some wrote that it was to keep shots from rolling in (shorter shots) while the longer players could fly one in.

Even then, at 5 feet, and typical 1-2" rough height, perhaps one big bounce still gets you in the bunker?  Or a hard shot (which would have gone further off line) reaches it, but one just petering out as it leaves the fw (which would have been a closer miss) stays out?  As Pat says, there is a certain element of fairness to that, in most folks mind.

Second, is the situation where the fairways have been narrowed tremendously for cost reasons, and the fw bunkers in general are getting 5-10 yards from the fw edge.  That one always looks ridonkulous and renders the bunkers almost useless.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

NPapadakes

Re: Bunkers Surrounded by Rough
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2014, 08:25:11 AM »
Read Dunlop White's articles the Shrinking Fairway and Anatomy of a Restoration.  I think it helps paint the picture of bunkers in the rough.  At least at my club, anyway.  The single line irrigation that shrunk fairways and subsequently put the fairway bunkers into the rough.  In my experience widening the fairways to include the bunkers has made our course more difficult for the lower handicappers..who by the way were worried we were dummying up the course by making the fairways bigger.  Personally I think it's a matter of just plain laziness.  Mowing is mowing. 

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