[John Kavanaugh]

How long do you think resort rounds would take under theses conditions. I doubt that the majority of rounds will be from 6150 yds either. While were young...no. Tee it forward...where?

[BCowan]

''I belong to a country club. I like green grass. How does that make me cynical?''

''As I've said in other threads, I like baked out dormant Bermuda surfaces. Helps my lack of driving distance, clean lies to hit the ball from and the greens at #2 seem like they'd be a hoot to play.''

   You sound like a politician.  

''I just don't think that 90% of golfers share my preferences. And I don't think those preferences make me a fucking genius or the other 90% idiots.''

    You have so many preferences it is hard to gauge any consistencies.  I don't think 90% like F&F and it is hard for any of them to experience it, when they don't have many chances of playing a really well designed course that plays great F&F in the US.  

[John Kavanaugh]

You guys are insulting every golfer I have ever played with. 100% of them hate mud on their ball and love member/guest firm and fast conditions.

[BCowan]

jkava,

   where is this mud you claim?  I haven't seen a mud ball. 

[John Kavanaugh]

jkava,

   where is this mud you claim?  I haven't seen a mud ball. 

Mud gets on your ball on soft courses. Every golfer hates that.

[Grant Saunders]

In terms of marketing and selling sustainability, the Pinehurst example may simply be too extreme.

Sustainable doesn't automatically equal brown fairways with weeds and dirt for rough.

There are plenty of degrees of increased sustainability and I feel as a selling position, Pinehurst could have had a more positive effect had things been ratcheted back a couple of notches.

In terms of selling a look or playability, that's a different matter entirely and a style has no direct correlation to cost of maintenance.

Lets separate the two and not try to promote look and sustainability as one and the same.

[Paul Gray]

When are you guys going to wake up and realize that when we play Pinehurst it will be green?  This is a tournament set up. If left like this, dead turns to mud.

And wrong again. It isn't dead. I grew up playing links golf where the fairways every summer were a hell of a lot browner than what you're seeing at Pinehurst. Absolutely no irrigation available then whatsoever. Every September it would rain and the grass would return to green. Pure ignorance in that you've demonstrated a fundamental lack of knowledge as to just how grass behaves. If it didn't remain alive whilst brown, the vast majority of the planet would be a desert. Did you just assume that every blade of grass on the planet was managed in some way?

[Joe Sponcia]

Thurman,

I think the 'brown' without the Sand Hills base would be tough. Many every day golfers like roll, but would prefer the ball sit up since few understand how to compress the ball. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Green and firm is 100% possible and sustainable.

JakaB,

Only if it doesn't rain !

Eric,

At the heart of the problem is the decades long indoctrination of golfers watching weekly PGA Tour events.

That's all they've seen.......... For decades.

So their reaction to what they saw at Pinehurst is not unexpected.

But, there's hope yet as club Green Committees and Boards are rethinking the direction that they should take in the future.

I've encountered the same thing that you have, but when you explain that it's about the quality of the playing surfaces and not how they look on TV you can make an impact and influence their thinking.

Tangentially, ask them which they prefer, 30 or more yards on firm, fast fairways that are "off color" or drives barely moving a yard on lush green fairways ?  

You'd be surprised at the "light bulb" reaction.

Good luck

[Gary Slatter]

There are many golfers in Scotland not playing links courses and in Australia not playing Sandbelt courses.

I've met golfers from England and Scotland who fly to Myrtle Beach to play on wall-to-wall emerald green courses, while riding in carts, and they have all been as happy as a pig in mud with that green grass.

This forum is all about trying to insist that the preferences of a tiny minority of golfers are superior to those of the rest of those who play the game. This is simply a continuation of that.

WELL SAID Brent!  Many people can't play links golf, I recall Sam Torrance and a few others saying how sore their wrists were after Ballybunion.  Ask the Brits how much they like Orlando golf!  Firm green is the colour of golf, at least with the price of fees. 

[Mike Sweeney]

WELL SAID Brent!  Many people can't play links golf, I recall Sam Torrance and a few others saying how sore their wrists were after Ballybunion. 

Gary,

They have this cool new thing called Google, and I am calling BS on that one:

http://www.samtorrance.com/golf-course-design.htm

Brought up on the west coast of Scotland Sam’s design philosophies have largely been influenced by the historic links courses of that area, such as Troon, Prestwick and Turnberry, and this traditional approach is clearly evident in his work on the Torrance Course at Fairmont St Andrews, close to the home of golf.

In reference to his quote about Ballybunion:

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/sport/other-sports/rorywas-it-mental-or-dental-29112919.html

I remember back in 2009 when Sam Torrance walked off the course at Ballybunion after two holes in the second round of the Irish Seniors Open citing an injured wrist and at the time I wrote in this newspaper that he had obviously hurt his wrist signing for a three over par seven at the hole, because he went out five days later and shot a five under par 67 in the Jersey Seniors. Sam obviously didn't like or maybe couldn't play Ballybunion (he had a first round 76), so I believed that this was his way of getting out of the event without the embarrassment of a missed cut.

[Jud_T]

Joe,

If a hack like me can learn to play off tight lies on F&F fairways, so can the average Joe.  All you need is for a guy to hit his first legit 275-300 yard drive and he'll get tired of playing wet connect-the-dots driving range aerial golf pretty quickly.

[Paul Gray]

Well said Jud.

And look, time to stop treating this as if it's a one off, never before seen occurrence. Just because it's new to American golfers under a certain age does not mean the evidence isn't already out there at golf courses around the planet. John can bang on all he likes about longer rounds and hackers struggling but 200+ years of evidence proves him wrong. Two and a half hours amongst the sand dunes with nothing but sheep for mowers is all the evidence needed. 

Gees, if you find two otherwise diametrically opposed individuals such as Mucci and me in utter agreement there must be something going on, and I can assure you that neither of us has bought the others agreement. My silence can't be bought and Pat's is well out of my price range.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul,

Having played on non-sand based soils in the 50's and 60's I can tell you that brownish/yellowish/greenish fairways were quite common in the summer and fall and that everyone enjoyed those playing conditions.

But 50+ years of televised golf has reoriented many into accepting GREEN as the ONLY acceptable color of the grass with almost a disregard for the quality of the playing surfaces.

Ten plus years before this year's Open at PH2, I was advocating for a return to brownish/yellowish/greenish fairways, tees and greens.

The rest of you morons are all "Johnny come latelies" 

[JMEvensky]

Paul,

Having played on non-sand based soils in the 50's and 60's I can tell you that brownish/yellowish/greenish fairways were quite common in the summer and fall and that everyone enjoyed those playing conditions.

But 50+ years of televised golf has reoriented many into accepting GREEN as the ONLY acceptable color of the grass with almost a disregard for the quality of the playing surfaces.

Ten plus years before this year's Open at PH2, I was advocating for a return to brownish/yellowish/greenish fairways, tees and greens.

The rest of you morons are all "Johnny come latelies" 

It wasn't so much that we enjoyed those conditions--we didn't have any option. That was just the way golf courses were.

I definitely agree that the PGAT on television changed the mindset from one of playability to one of aesthetics.This has not been a good development.

[William_G]

Great topic and statements Eric.

As the Masters and the PGA discovered and capitalized on, "green sells".

The false standard of green via color television now in hi def has been programmed into every golfer's or non-golfer's brain, we are human.

Fun discussion.

Thanks

[Mark Fedeli]

At the heart of the problem is the decades long indoctrination of golfers watching weekly PGA Tour events.

That's all they've seen.......... For decades.

So their reaction to what they saw at Pinehurst is not unexpected.

I think the discussion pretty much starts and ends here. I've heard a boat load of criticism about how PH2 "looked" on television and every single one of those critics equates perfectly manicured conditioning and hugely dramatic views with a great golf course. A natural look is only welcome insomuch as it does not intrude on any of the above. Strategy, decision-making, the ground game... many don't realize these are things of any importance whatsoever (unless they are mentioned in the context of making a course more difficult). And because of what Pat said above, with the years of indoctrination, it's almost hard to blame them.

[Brent Hutto]

I have played courses which look more green and "manicured" than the US Open setup at #2 while still having a very keen "ground game" and "strategy" on offer.

[Paul Gray]

Pat,

Just in case you're looking for a fight which just isn't there, please see my previous comment. For the benefit of your failing eyesight, I've highlighted part of it.

......Just because it's new to American golfers under a certain age does not mean the evidence isn't already out there at golf courses around the planet. John can bang on all he likes about longer rounds and hackers struggling but 200+ years of evidence proves him wrong......

[Mark Fedeli]

I have played courses which look more green and "manicured" than the US Open setup at #2 while still having a very keen "ground game" and "strategy" on offer.

I never said such courses do not exist.

[Don Mahaffey]

I have played courses which look more green and "manicured" than the US Open setup at #2 while still having a very keen "ground game" and "strategy" on offer.

We all have, but the big difference is almost all of those are in temperate climates and on cool season turf. To get bermuda to play fast, to be "puttable" from 10 yards off the green, you simply can not be concerned with color or appearance as to get it truly fast it will turn mottled and have all sorts of shades, but the turf will be very, very playable, just as it was at P2. Color has zero to do with playability, and not as much to do with plant health as some here will have you believe.

One reason warm season courses do not often play as fast as their northern brethren is because as soon as color becomes a priority with most warm season turfs, firm and fast go out the window.

In the south, you often pick your poison; fast, but off color, or pretty, but slow.

[Brent Hutto]

I have played courses which look more green and "manicured" than the US Open setup at #2 while still having a very keen "ground game" and "strategy" on offer.

We all have, but the big difference is almost all of those are in temperate climates and on cool season turf. To get bermuda to play fast, to be "puttable" from 10 yards off the green, you simply can not be concerned with color or appearance as to get it truly fast it will turn mottled and have all sorts of shades, but the turf will be very, very playable, just as it was at P2. Color has zero to do with playability, and not as much to do with plant health as some here will have you believe.

One reason warm season courses do not often play as fast as their northern brethren is because as soon as color becomes a priority with most warm season turfs, firm and fast go out the window.

In the south, you often pick your poison; fast, but off color, or pretty, but slow.

True points.

Hence my need to blow 1,200 bucks every year flying somewhere that isn't grassed with Bermuda. Unfortunately, it's worth every penny.

[Don Mahaffey]

I have played courses which look more green and "manicured" than the US Open setup at #2 while still having a very keen "ground game" and "strategy" on offer.

We all have, but the big difference is almost all of those are in temperate climates and on cool season turf. To get bermuda to play fast, to be "puttable" from 10 yards off the green, you simply can not be concerned with color or appearance as to get it truly fast it will turn mottled and have all sorts of shades, but the turf will be very, very playable, just as it was at P2. Color has zero to do with playability, and not as much to do with plant health as some here will have you believe.

One reason warm season courses do not often play as fast as their northern brethren is because as soon as color becomes a priority with most warm season turfs, firm and fast go out the window.

In the south, you often pick your poison; fast, but off color, or pretty, but slow.

True points.

Hence my need to blow 1,200 bucks every year flying somewhere that isn't grassed with Bermuda. Unfortunately, it's worth every penny.

Or get over your bias for color and just play...if you can find a course in the south that doesn't follow the green is awesome mantra

[Brent Hutto]

In my neck of the woods, brown Bermuda grass is not something found at $400+ resort courses. Brown Bermuda grass is something found at places where the grass has died from neglect. Those places don't have Pinehurst greens, they don't have carefully managed "native areas" that look like unmaintained scruff while actually having finely calibrated playability. Any course around here in good repair will be all or at least mostly green Bermuda grass.

So given the choice of dirt and cuppy lies with the bunkers washed out and shitty greens at a $15 public course versus green visuals and soft conditions with too much water on nicely maintained courses I tend to choose the latter. The fact that Pinehurst resort offers a one-off opportunity to experience a great course that LOOKS like those goat-ranch public ones down the street from me does not change which options I choose on a daily basis.

And honestly, if I'm going to travel even a couple hundred miles and spend Pinehurst kind of money, I'll hold out for fescue grass. They've created something that's at least in the same ballpark of playability as a good links or heathland course and managed (at great expense and trouble) to make that happen in the sand hills of North Carolina. But hell I can play on dormant Bermuda all winter long for free at home and for Pinehurst prices I'll just save up and do my summer vacation somewhere that has a cool climate and attendant turf grasses.

[Don Mahaffey]

Is brown fescue OK at high end clubs and resorts?

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