What Are 10 Courses You Want To Play (and haven't) To Learn Something About

[Sean_A]

Yourself, Golf And Architecture?  

APACHE STRONGHOLD - always looked to me like the most interesting of a genre of courses which I generally have no interest.

AUGUSTA - how can one not want play here?  Way too much history to walk away with nothing.

BALLYNEAL - I always thought the photos suggested Doak may have turned a corner with this design.  It somehow seems simpler than pix I have seen of other big name Doaks.

CPC - I am very curious as to how well Dr Mac's principles have held up over the years with a club that can spend a ton of money to maitenance wise modernize a course.

MACHRIE - one of the last of a dead breed of Old Time Golf.

MORFONTAINE - 9 Holer - greens look way to good to never see.

MYOPIA - I am very interested in the integration of 19th century architecture into 20 century designs.

NGLA - looks like it could be the best course on the planet.  Plus, the idea of such deliberate architecture devolved from "past masters" is very appealing.

ROYAL HAGUE - a bit of a flyer based on comments of those I trust.

ROYAL MELBOURNE WEST - one of very few inland man-made strategic designs on sand.  I have never been convinced I would fall for the course, but one has gotta see for himself.  

Other courses I considered for the list

Askernish - went with Machrie because of blindness
Cal Club - strikingly open looking, but in the end, a parkland course - can't have visuals be main reason for visiting
Eastward Ho! - because its Fowler, but it always looks parklandish in its maintenance
Garden City - very close call to keep out of top 10
Lawsonia - I really like abruptness of the features, but I already have a few non-sandy sites in the top 10
Pasatiempo - already have three Dr Macs
Pine Valley - like Garden City, very close call to keep out
Rustic Canyon - I have heard too many things recently about how the design has been compromised over the years
White Bear Yacht Club - very close call as the golf looks severe, but on the sensible side of excellent
Yale - wasn't sure I really needed to see anymore severe designs

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Will only mention those outside GB&I and assuming the opportunity/££ -

Melbourne sandbelt courses usual suspects - missed a previous opportunity due to injury - still an annoying regret
Nebraska/Colorado/etc usual suspect sand courses
Long Island usual suspects
Heathlands around Paris
Heathlands/links in Belgium/Holland
Bandon
Pinehurst area - usual suspects - missed before, still a regret
Specifics not inc above - CPC, Pine Valley,

That'll do.

Most seem to have the same thing in common - built on sand.

atb

[Mark Bourgeois]

My 10 courses I want to play (and haven't) to learn something about myself, golf, and architecture are:
1. Royal North Devon in 10 types of weather and during 10 times of day.

Here are my 10 larnins and such:
1. To see that the game has changed so much
2. To see that the game hasn't changed at all
3. To learn how my taste in architecture differs from that of previous generations
4. To get a sense of where we lost our way, as golfers and as architects
5. In a personal, non-golf sense: simplify, simplify, simplify
6. In a golf / architectural sense: to learn to spot the difference between simple and simplistic (is there architecture hiding in that apparently boring hole...or is it just a boring hole? This long has been a tough one for me)
7. To stand on the 6th tee and regain my capacity for wonder (hopefully)
8. To learn what happens when you nail a horse on its *ss from 250 yards (a man can dream)
9. To learn how the play of a links can vary under different conditions
10. To learn how to play a specific links under varied conditions

[JNC Lyon]

1) National Golf Links.  I love the MRB style, but what always impresses me is that I like different types of holes on different courses from them.  I would love to see what my favorite would be there.
2) Royal Melbourne.  How does the sand belt differ from other sand-based courses I've played.
3) Pacific Dunes.  Two questions: 1) Is the architecture better than Ballyneal?; 2) What is links golf like in the United States?
4) Pine Valley.  I've always wondered this about Pine Valley: is the course too penal for the everyday player?
5) Augusta National. What defines the course more, the land or the greens?  Are the greens really THAT difficult?
6) Wolf Point.  Is backyard golf all I've ever hoped and dreamed it would be?
7) Cypress Point.  How good are the inland holes?  Is the 18th really the worst finisher in golf?  Can you have a great course with a bad finish?
8. St. Andrews.  What are best holes on the course you never hear about (2? 4? 12? 13?), and how do they add to a course full of infamous holes.  Also, how long can I refuse to hit shots off a mat before getting scolded?
9) Muirfield.  How good is it, really?
10) Bethpage Black.  What are the greens really like?  Can you have a great course without a great short four?

So, clearly, this list doubles as a wish list for courses I really, really want to play.  This makes sense though, since I feel like I would learn a lot from just about any new course I play.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Morfontaine:  What the hell is playing a great course in FRANCE like?
Oakmont:  How hard is it really?  Could I break 80?  90?
North Berwick:  What is all the fuss about?
Eastward Ho:  Does a small course on a hilly site work?  The pictures look amazing.
That crazy course on the side of a mountain in Hawaii:  Could I lose less than a dozen golf balls?  Less than 6?

There's 5 for now...

[Jim Nugent]

All old standards, but here they are, in no particular order...

1.  NGLA.  Having spent a fair amount of time at SLCC, would like to see CBM's original and real masterpiece

2.  Sand Hills.  The course that kicked off the minimalist era and brought golf courses back to their roots. 

3.  Pine Valley.  Is it really possible to have 18 perfect holes? 

4.  TOC.  The home of golf.

5.  Royal Melbourne West.  Best course in the southern hemisphere, strategic masterpiece, a big part of the world's only Doak 11.

6.  Teeth of the Dog.  Dye revolutionized GCA, and I need to check out at least one of his best courses.

7.  Ballyneal or Barnbougle or Dismal Red: to see a great course from the guy who will have ten world top 100 courses (at least) before he's done.

8.  Winged Foot West.  How you make a great course without a great property.

9.  Royal County Down.  Front nine alone makes it irresistible. 

10. Oakmont.  How to make a penal course a great course. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean - I'd like to play:

Garden City - to see what was done and could be done on a flat site
Seminole - to see what was done and could be done in Florida by the sea
Ballyneal - to learn about how much freedom and open endless skies I can actually take
Ganton - to learn if I'd love inland golf in GB&I as much as I think
NGLA - to learn what kind of shape my golfing soul is in
Carnoustie - I want to experience tough, Open championship golf, but not in America
Walton Heath - to experience it for myself
Notts - to have a round of golf and a pint in your company, and learn
Old MacDonald - to see how my modern golfing soul relates its golden age counterpart
Wolf Point-- to meet the boys and experience myself some gold old texas golf!

[Michael Felton]

I think,

National Golf Links - to see all the template holes there and see how good they can be
Garden City - to see what the fuss is about
Augusta - not so much from an architecture perspective, but to see how I would cope with the greens there
Carnoustie - to see how I could cope with that place in general. So hard
Shinnecock - just because
Royal Melbourne - an Aussie sandbelt version of a wide course that still plays tough. How to build a course that's wide open, but still a severe challenge
Boston Golf Club - saw Gil Hanse give a talk on Thursday and this is one of his that apparently is a great example of new work.
Ballyneal - my man Mr Fedeli who posts on here from time to time tells me it's incredible and I'd love to see it
Sand Hills - Ari Techner says it's better than Pine Valley and that I want to see. I've never seen anything come close.
Seminole - I've played a lot of British courses that are windswept. I'd love to see the quintessential US version of it.

[Matthew Mollica]

Great topic Sean - I'll get to work on the list.

But one small correction - Royal Melbourne is not likely "inland". It is covered in coastal flora and lies on land less than a kilometre from Port Phillip Bay, which is a significant body of water.

MM

[RJ_Daley]

TOC, to explore the cradle of the game.
County Down, to see the Irish side of the upper tier of the traditional game.
Royal Dornach, to see he northern Scottish tier of the ancient game.
St. Georges or Lytham and St. Annes, to see the English version of the traditional game.

NGLA, one of the seminal GCA works in U.S.
Pine Valley, and or Merion for the home made one-off historical understanding of Crump or Wilson getting it so right.
Oakmont, for its origins and legendary design/maintenance meld challenges.

Old Mac, for its place in the tribute and collaboration of the significant GCA figures of the modern design era.
Cypress Point, for its designation of the Sistine Chapel of the game.
Riviera, for its place in the west coast classic evolution of GCA, because I've been there but didn't play it.

[Nigel Islam]

No particular order:

1. NGLA: To see the best of the template courses
2. Cypress Point Club: To see if I can make 3 on 16 & also to experience the majestic beauty of the course
3. Royal Melbourne: To experience the best of Australian golf which seems to be the purest form of golf outside of he British Isles.
4. Wolf Run: To be able to give an unqualified answer to the question, "What is the best course in Indiana?"
5. Broadmoor: See above
6. Pacific Dunes: To be able to play a Doak course other than Quail Crossing
7. Louisville Country Club: I want to get a look at this low profile, Walter Travis course that is 20 minutes from where I grew up.
8. Merion East: To see how such a shortish course can play so long.
9. Chicago Golf: Honestly because I don't think I will ever see this course unless I get to play it.
10. Pine Valley: It is still so much of a mystery to me. It is hard for me to appreciate why it is so revered.

Probably should have put Shinnecock in there, but I thought some of the local courses I'd like to see are more interesting than the usual rhetoric.

[Connor Dougherty]

I had the incredible privilege to see so many courses last summer, so many of them are knocked off this list for the most part. For me, the feeling of playing them is wonderful, but so much can be learned from just seeing the designs in person.

So, in these moments as I procrastinate on my finals:
Sunningdale Old and New: My exposure to Colt is extremely minimal, and of all the architects I would like to study, by far, he's the one I know the least about, and I have absolutely no exposure to heathland.

Huntercombe: Ever since reading Ran's review, I've been fascinated by this place. The hollows look thrilling, and, particularly for an old course, the type of hazard which may be the greatest threat to professionals in the future. In a US Open, wouldn't it be more thrilling to try to see a player try to recover from one of the grassy pits like those at Huntercombe? I'm interested to see how it would play in person.

Kingston Heath: The course that got me into golf course architecture was Pasatiempo. While MacKenzie's course in Santa Cruz has been encroached on by homes, particularly on the front 9, that wasn't originally the case when it opened, which is why I find the old pictures of Pasatiempo so fascinating. Seeing how MacKenzie handled such a small site would be interesting.

Jockey Club: For similar reasons above, I would love to see what MacKenzie did with a much flatter site than Pasatiempo. With both courses.

Royal Hague: It pains me to say that despite being a Dutch citizen, I've never played golf in the country. Royal Hague seems like a really good place to start.

Kingsley Club: I haven't seen any of Mike DeVries work in person, and for that reason I'd readily substitute any of his own work for Kingsley (although I did play a high school tournament at Meadow Club, which he did a restoration on), particularly Greywalls or, now that the photos are coming out, Cape Wickham in Australia. But I figure Kingsley, with all of the talk it gets on here, is probably a good one to put down.

Himalayan Golf Course: I'm sure there's loads to learn about it architecturally, but just the journey there alone, on top of what would probably be some time spent in the mountains, would be incredible. To this day, the most I learned about myself was on a 26 day backpacking trip in Death Valley in high school. I'd probably do something similar while out there.

SFGC: It's painful to dream of a course, be geographically so close to it (growing up in the San Francisco area) and feel so far away from even thinking of seeing/playing it. For me, I'll always feel like my understanding of Tillinghast will never be fully understood until I get to see SFGC. That has probably as much to do without GCA as it does with GCA.

So much travel, so little time.

[Scott Warren]

Kingston Heath: The course that got me into golf course architecture was Pasatiempo. While MacKenzie's course in Santa Cruz has been encroached on by homes, particularly on the front 9, that wasn't originally the case when it opened, which is why I find the old pictures of Pasatiempo so fascinating. Seeing how MacKenzie handled such a small site would be interesting.

Let me save you the flight - he didn't! Dan Soutar designed Kingston Heath.

[Rich Goodale]

Kingston Heath: The course that got me into golf course architecture was Pasatiempo. While MacKenzie's course in Santa Cruz has been encroached on by homes, particularly on the front 9, that wasn't originally the case when it opened, which is why I find the old pictures of Pasatiempo so fascinating. Seeing how MacKenzie handled such a small site would be interesting.

Let me save you the flight - he didn't! Dan Soutar designed Kingston Heath.

Take that flight, Connor!  Kingston Heath is much more instructive from a GCA point of view that either RM East or West.  It's also much more fun to play.

Rich

[Scott Warren]

Rich,

Kingston Heath is wonderful and educational, but it won't tell you anything about how Mackenzie routed a small site. How he bunkered one, on the other hand...

More fun to play than RM West?  I disagree there.

[Ronald Montesano]

10) Bethpage Black.  What are the greens really like?  Can you have a great course without a great short four?

Juan (tanamera), I was at BB the last two days for State High School Federation championships. I played a practice round (1-14) on Saturday with my golfer, then served as a walking scorer on Sunday. Here is what I can tell you about El Negro:

1. The second is a short par for the pros. If they like, they could go over the trees on the left and put it in the front bunkers. The 6th is also a short par four for the pros, as is the 19th. So, you have three SP4s on the course, but here's the rub: none of them is a classic, risk-reward, driveable par four. There's no reason to go up and over on 2, no reason to have the 18th on the course, as it is still a wretched hole. For the upcoming PGA Championship at the black, I would love to take the fairway on 6 all the way out to the edges of the fescue and say "go, lads." It would come on the heels of the 5th (an unbelievable par four) and the 4th (greatest inland par five I've played) and just before the reachable yet challenging 7th (also a par five-is it a four for the pros?) If you were to play 7 as a par five, you would have eagle potential on three of four holes on the front.

Hold on there, cowboy...the 6th is fronted by bunkers, with no real way to run it on the green. Correct. Pros hole out pitch shots and explosion shots all the time~that is the eagle potential on the 6th.

2. The greens at El Negro are not commensurate with the topography of the property. For a course that goes out and back in the classic way, occupying an immense tract of land, you are often surprised at the flatness of some of the greens. My experience with muni courses in western New York is that they have simple, one-dimensional breaks to them. None of the tricky, double break or subtle break greens that you find at the private clubs. For the majority of the round, the greens at El Negro break simply and not nearly as much as you read. By the by, I think they've returned the 15th green to its former "oh, oH, OH, OOOOOHHHHHHH" glory, with the lower front.

[Ronald Montesano]

My offering. If things go according to plan, I'll see these courses this summer:

Glens Falls
Yahnundasis
Scranton
Teugega
Merion West
CCBuffalo (my first full round since the restoration)
Sagamore
Saranac
Merion East
Tupper Lake

GF, T, Sag and CCB are Ross courses.
Yah and Scr are Travies courses
Sar is a Seymour Dunn course
TL is purportedly Ross
MW and ME are kinda known around here, but I've yet to play them.

I want to play The Bridge after the braintrust over there completes its in-house projects. That's a pipe dream, as is any, east-end course outside of Montauk.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Couldn't actually name them, but I have always wanted to play some sand green courses to see what that was like.  I have driven by a few in KS, but never stopped with clubs in the trunk, so it was just a tour.

[Michael Felton]

Juan (tanamera), I was at BB the last two days for State High School Federation championships. I played a practice round (1-14) on Saturday with my golfer, then served as a walking scorer on Sunday. Here is what I can tell you about El Negro:

1. The second is a short par for the pros. If they like, they could go over the trees on the left and put it in the front bunkers. The 6th is also a short par four for the pros, as is the 19th. So, you have three SP4s on the course, but here's the rub: none of them is a classic, risk-reward, driveable par four. There's no reason to go up and over on 2, no reason to have the 18th on the course, as it is still a wretched hole. For the upcoming PGA Championship at the black, I would love to take the fairway on 6 all the way out to the edges of the fescue and say "go, lads." It would come on the heels of the 5th (an unbelievable par four) and the 4th (greatest inland par five I've played) and just before the reachable yet challenging 7th (also a par five-is it a four for the pros?) If you were to play 7 as a par five, you would have eagle potential on three of four holes on the front.

The 7th was played as a par four for the US Open in 2009. I think it was a 5 for the Barclays though. I'm not sure which way they'd do it for the PGA.

I hear that for the Ryder Cup there may be a plan to play from the 18th tee on the Black to the 18th green on the Red. Would be a 480 odd yard par four and the bunkers on the 18th Red fairway would be right at driving distance for the pros. Could make for a much more interesting finish than the current 18th.

[Nigel Islam]

Couldn't actually name them, but I have always wanted to play some sand green courses to see what that was like.  I have driven by a few in KS, but never stopped with clubs in the trunk, so it was just a tour.

Yeah there is a 9 hole course south of Terre Haute with sand greens that I tried to play one time. Unfortunately they were closed, but I did get out and hit a few putts.

[Mac Plumart]

10 courses I want to play (that I haven't) in which I want to learn something from...

Royal Melbourne...Haven't played in the Australian sandbelt.  The turf and sand are supposed to be unique.  And this is one of the very best designs in the world, I need to play it.

Sunningdale...I haven't played in the heathlands.  This is supposed to be the first really great non-links course.  I need to see it.

Pine Valley...always ranked #1, there's got to be a reason.

Cypress Point...Mackenzie's best?  In an ideal golf setting.  I've got to play it.

Highlands Links...supposed to be one of the best/most unique routings in the world.

Prestwick...lots of holes and features stolen from this course.  There's got to be a reason why.

Old Town...It was supposed to be good before the renovation, not it is supposed to be off the charts.

Desert Forest...first desert golf course. 

Essex...golfing minds that I respect say it might be Ross' best.

Penny Branch...a mom and pop in the low country (or on the way to it), it will be neat to see a course of this genre.

[Ronald Montesano]

I hear that for the Ryder Cup there may be a plan to play from the 18th tee on the Black to the 18th green on the Red. Would be a 480 odd yard par four and the bunkers on the 18th Red fairway would be right at driving distance for the pros. Could make for a much more interesting finish than the current 18th.

To do that, they would have to play across the Red 1st fairway and take down trees that serve as a buffer for the 4th (?) green on the Red and the 1st Green/Fairway on the Red. Officials could easily shuttle the golfers from 17 green Black to 18 tee Red if they wanted. They could go below the 18th tees, in front of the Red first green to the Red 18th fairway and up the hill. That seems more likely.

[Ronald Montesano]

golfing minds

Is this an oxymoron?

[Eric Smith]

Cypress Point Club That Mackenzie summoned Doak 10 golf out of this epic setting is reason enough for me to want to see for myself.
Cal Club They said California (Golf Club) is the place I ought to be...all the guys I know who have played here are always super happy when talking about it. Seems the perfect members club. I want to see why.

Sunningdale The textured landscape haunts me. Is it real?  Seems almost a fantasy this place. and 36 holes of it? Oh my..
Swinley That it is Mr. Sheehy's favo(u)rite is good enough for me.
Notts Seems it may be in a league of its own? I want to see what that means. Hopefully in the company of the estimable, Mr. Boon.
Huntercombe Ditto for Huntercombe? I yearn to see those visually striking and rather unusual land forms.
Kington I have no doubts whatsoever that I would love it up there.

Tralee I want to see a modern archies take when working with what appears to be an epic landscape.
Ballybunion In a word: Iconic...Always wanted to play here.

Machrie I love remote. Was so close a couple of years ago I could see it (Islay, from Machrihanish). Next time I'm going all the way.

Noordwijkse Course seemed kind of controversial following the BUDA there. I want to see for myself...but mostly I want to make good on a home and home with my friend, Mr. Davis.

[Adam Lawrence]

Eric, Swinley is a wonderful place, but you have to remember that Sheehy is a snob, and the posher the membership, the more he likes it