[Josh Stevens]

Ours is  reasonably tough course yet we can get a full field of say 130 players around in 4 hours 15 at 7 minute intervals. People are the problem, not the interval

[Paul Gray]

Adrian,

I'm slightly surprised about some of your comments.

I appreciate that you work in a the conveyor belt market but no tee times is certainly not a sign of a stupid club. If clubs can do it, and mine can, the informality of just being able to play as and when you like is very refreshing, particularly compared to my last club where membership exceeded 1,000 and 8 minute intervals and 4.30 hour rounds were the norm. You have your reasons to bemoan the uneven nature of the playing field which arguably contributes to the disparity in options available to clubs but don't knock those clubs which can break even without resorting to marching players on and off the first tee.

Your comments however about play only getting slower are accurate and I think there's a reason almost always overlooked: lessons. We're always too quick to blame Tour pros and certainly part of the blame lies with them but part of a golf lesson these days (and a lot more players have them now) is centred on focusing, pre-shot routines etc. Until we explain to kids that that whole process should be an ongoing one which begins before you reach the first tee and remains switched on throughout your round we'll forever be watching kids stare at golf balls.

[Paul Gray]

Adrian,

I'm slightly surprised about some of your comments.

I appreciate that you work in a the conveyor belt market but no tee times is certainly not a sign of a stupid club. If clubs can do it, and mine can, the informality of just being able to play as and when you like is very refreshing, particularly compared to my last club where membership exceeded 1,000 and 8 minute intervals and 4.30 hour rounds were the norm. You have your reasons to bemoan the uneven nature of the playing field which arguably contributes to the disparity in options available to clubs but don't knock those clubs which can break even without resorting to marching players on and off the first tee.

Your comments however about play only getting slower are accurate and I think there's a reason almost always overlooked: lessons. We're always too quick to blame Tour pros and certainly part of the blame lies with them but part of a golf lesson these days (and a lot more players have them now) is centred on focusing, pre-shot routines etc. Until we explain to kids that that whole process should be an ongoing one which begins before you reach the first tee and remains switched on throughout your round we'll forever be watching kids stare at golf balls.

[Sean_A]

Paul

I agree, no tee times isn't in the least stupid.  That system can work well and I did belong to a club where it did work well.  I am now a member of a club where times are booked and I am happy because its a 1.5 hour drive.  Different systems for different needs.  I visit a lot of clubs without tee times.  Usually the pros know the "tee sheet" very well and offer excellent advice of what times to avoid. I think no tee times can be quite a clever marketing gimmick.  The tee usually seems free even though if times were booked this isn't the case, yet rarely have I run into problems with over-crowding on the first tee. 

Although, at Coxmoor once, we booked a time as part of the winter package.  Members don't have times.  We walked to the tee and it was packed!  I asked a fellow what the story was and he of course said get in line.  I went back to the pro and he marched us to the head of the que and off we went!  He even gave the members a mild rebuke saying they knew better!  It was great stuff.  I whacked an 8 iron to 4 feet and offered a half to my partner 20 feet away in two just to get out of the way!  What a wierd setup. 

Ciao

[Paul Gray]

Sean,

I agree entirely. Horses for courses and all that.

And nice story. I know of a club local to me which happens to be part of a group we've discussed before. Booking through Teetimes always seems easy and you can always get a time 'on the hour.' It's not till you arrive that you realise everyone is booked for the same tee time, i.e. 'on the hour' that the problem becomes evident!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Paul & Sean -  It is not about conveyor golf at all, it is actually the other way. Sean elluded to some of the benifits of booking in that the pro can direct you to quiet times.

We want our golfers to enjoy their round and not have to wait. That is not always possible with competitions and busy weekend days.

With online booking you can see for yourself get there at say 10.00 and you have no one ahead, get there at 10.30 and you are behind a group and can't tee off till 11.30.

A tee time booking system allows the user to go every 16 or 24 minutes in quiet times, the administration angles are many and the patrolling allows far less theft of the green fees. A tee time system is just as useful as CCTV.

Equally with a tee booking system there is nothing to say you cant just pitch up and take your chance, it is win win win with a tee time booking system over turn up.

I need to be directed to benifits of why a turn up system is not (stupid) (dark ages) (incorrectly wired up) then I will withdraw my stupid comment :O) Please alert me to why it is good and can't be achieved via a booking system. We have members that book and some that pitch up. I have never heard of one comment or moan at any of the clubs I have been involved with that would want to go back to 'ball in the shute'.

[Adam Lawrence]

Most of the clubs I have really loved have been no tee times. But thinking about Adrian's point, I suspect the no tee time aspect might be the symptom rather than the cause - what we're actually seeing is a club that is quiet and you can get a game on spec without much waiting. Adrian's right - that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not there is a tee booking sheet.

[Jeff_Brauer]

People who know more than me have studied it and found that 7-8 minute tee times do contribute to backups.  10-12-15 minute tee times are more realistic on busier courses, and do help reduce logjams.

You can blame golfers, but each of us probably loses one ball per round, minimum, or has a buried bunkers shot, key putt for a dime, etc.  At some point, things happen to slow down the round from the "conveyor belt" (great term) And that is to all of us, not just the guy in front of us.....

So, a realistic tee time interval should be established that accounts for the average amount of these.  It will help, but I do agree that all it takes is one guy to gum up the works the rest of the day.

[Paul Gray]

Adrian,

1) It's less formal. I'm there to play golf, not to look at my watch.
2) You meet and play with people that would forever otherwise be strangers if you all found your own little one ball slot for 5 holes after work on a Summers' evening. Think how many clubs run a roll up event and how well that generally works.
3) Tee times are simply not required at more traditional, non-proprietary clubs as the membership levels required to break even are simply not as high. Remember that we don't need to make a profit, you do. Furthermore, taxes and golf on less than ideal soil all add to your burden.
4) Speaking specifically about my club, Hayling, even if a few groups turn up at the tee at the same time, congestion isn't a problem as the natural spacing created by an opening par 3 makes it all work out well. To be frank, they're a pretty well educated bunch that either get round in 3 hours or immediately call quicker players through so slow play just isn't an issue. (Note: The block booking for the small kids on Sunday can be a problem but I'm all for them getting a taste of the game and I'm not likely to start bullying 8 year olds so that I can live with  )
5) Green fee poachers aren't much of a problem at traditional clubs, certainly not like they are at proprieties. Stupid, yes, as you would think a golf thief would at least bother to steal a round from a club with some serious kudos but seemingly those types have a subconscious fear of such places.
6) I rarely get anywhere on time.
7) You simply can't book two tee starts throughout the day. Conversely, I can drive half a mile to the 14th tee and start hitting balls whenever I like. If I'm frequently just playing a few holes after work I don't want to continually see the same part of the golf course so strolling on for a different loop is highly appealing.
Tee times creative a very restrictive concept of playing. Once people have a tee time they tend to think they MUST play strictly from the 1st to the 18th. Cutting from one part of the course to another, even when not affecting anyone, is often seen as one lateral thought too many.

And they're just off the top of my head. If I put my mind to it I'm sure I could think of numerous other reasons.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Paul, those things you mention can still be done with a tee times system, so you have not convinced me 1%.

You are assuming that a tee times system means fully booked, today we probably had 12 tee times booked and that's on 36 holes.

A tee time system is there to help. You can still have your roll ups.

I would be quite astonished if anyone agreed with all your seven reasons, there really is nothing but upside to having one. And if you think that cheating on the green fees does not go on at traditional clubs then you live in a world different to me.

As soon as any club get's a good manager he will want to put a tee times system in.

It is nothing about commercial v private clubs its about doing the job properly or being stupid, sadly there are plenty of stupid clubs because they are run by idiots skilled in many things except running golf courses.

[Pete_Pittock]

Tommy:

I'm afraid that twelve-minute tee times on Tour would make no difference.  Tour players don't take 5+ hours because they are waiting on the group in front of them.  They take 5+ hours because they are slow.

WW

Wade,
The only times you should consider are weekend times when they don't need to wait until the 10th (or 1st) tee clears with a split-tee start.
I might buy into your argument if they take lots of time with eighteen easy hole locations.

[Paul Gray]

..............As soon as any club get's a good manager he will want to put a tee times system in.

It is nothing about commercial v private clubs its about doing the job properly or being stupid, sadly there are plenty of stupid clubs because they are run by idiots skilled in many things except running golf courses.

Adrian,

Firstly, not so long ago we got a new club manager and he's impressed me a lot so far. I would however agree though that for every good club manager there are ten bad ones, usually people that know nothing about the game.

Commercial vs Private - Hmmm, as a member at a private club and a former Crown Golf employee I beg to differ. Certainly the course I worked at would have collapsed without tee times. Hayling, without rejecting the concept of tee times, simply doesn't need to be that restrictive. You can say tee times are there to help and on a busy course you'd be right but, ultimately, putting people on a set tee at a set time is restrictive. Without a hint of poetic licence, I'm genuinely sat, looking out of the window and contemplating popping up the road for a few holes. As a paying member I wouldn't appreciate having to go through a booking process here and now.  

And if I pick the phone up and call, say, Liphook, I can guarantee that they won't need me to be there at a specific time either. I'll be told that the morning will be busy with all the old boys and after 2 o'clock, societies not withstanding, it'll be dead. So why would they want to pay out for something they simply don't need?

And there is a cultural aspect which you're seemingly not considering. Are you really telling me that it would be a smart move to tell the old gents at Swinley Forest that they now had to go online or call the club to book a game of golf, then on the day to go into the Pro Shop and register? Good luck keeping that job!

I've always thought you know your stuff Adrian and I'm not suggesting for one second that you're wrong with regards to your clubs. As I said before, horses for courses.

[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,

many of the smaller courses here in the Highlands operate an honesty box system. So to go to the trouble of tee off times and the expense of paying someone to check it would be silly. I agree that if you get a moderate amount of traffic a booking system will be a positive thing in many ways but to say in a blanket way any course without one is stupid shows a surprising lack of comprehension for the needs of various golf clubs in other areas.

Many players like the informality of just being able to turn up and play though the course.

Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

Paul - Your real argument to me is not about tee times. You want to play golf on a golf course that is quiet.

If its quiet the tees wont be busy anyway, so if Hayling had a tee times system the tees would still be vacant. Tee time systems monitor and patrol. What they can do by allowing booking is ensure when you a treating your best customer to play next wednesday at 12.00 you do not have the embarressment of having to wait 40 minutes before playing, most would see that as a positive. Remember some people will like the fact that they are on a solid time when they play. Tee times caters for both type user, how you like to play and how others do.

The systems are designed to stop theft. I am not accusing anybody but some people do steal money and the temptation to not account for a customer that has not signed the book can be tempting for an 18 year old assistant on five shillings a week.

We live in a world where we need to protect and CCTV and security systems are essential, the tee times systems help you to be more secure. The world is changing all the time, more and more members clubs can see the benifits.

[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,

Arguing that tee times allows a club to take advantage and exploit employees seems a strange way to sell it. If you feel that your 18 year old assistant is going to steal because of a meagre wage then maybe he should be paid at a decent rate .

Jon

[Paul Gray]

Adrian,

You seem convinced that I'm arguing with you when I'm not. Like I said, again, horses for courses. At a busy Crown course with over a thousand members we needed tee times so we had them. Anything else would have been chaos.

And you're absolutely right that I'd rather play at a course which doesn't need tee times, that's why I do. Ask your members if they'd rather that it was quiet enough to not need tee times and I'm pretty sure you know what the answer would be. You have tee times simply because you need them, not because it's a prerequisite to being a good club manager in all circumstances, which is what you suggested when saying that anyone that did anything different would be stupid.

As for your 18 year olds on £4.33 an hour (or whatever it is now for the under 21's), if you're that worried I suggest you make sure that those members that are always a pain about taking stamped cards (or whatever you dish out) do so EVERY TIME. If you don't there will always be plenty of spares floating about. And good luck doing that whilst keeping them just happy enough to not look elsewhere. The lad in the shop will tell you that they just won't play ball, and he'll be right. But good luck anyway.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

All I can say is from experience, no tee times works very well, so does tee times.  I agree with Paul.  Its nice not to have to meet a prescribed time because it allows freedom.  I am not sure why thats hard to understand or not desirable. Once times are in place my movements are on the clock and if I alter my movements, I need to inform someone and maybe seek out another tme.  I would rather not have that hassle - its too much like trying to catch a plane or train.  But I can understand if anal types want to be marched around like soldiers  - we all gotta right.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean

With a tee times system you can do both. I still maintain its dark ages/stupid not to have one. You can still cater for the roll up. The advantages on the administration side are worth lots and the online view means you can check the quietness of the golf course from New Zealand if you want too. If you dont want to use it then just pitch up.

Its an absolute no brainer.

[Jon Wiggett]

Okay Adrian,

how does a club with an honesty box system and no one in the clubhouse do a tee booking system? What about at your place if a member wants to go at say 8pm for half a dozen holes do they need a tee time and if yes does it make sense to pay someone to control it at that time?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Jon -

People can and do just turn up. A tee time system does not stop that. A tee time system is a live diary though so from your phone you can see it is quiet or maybe there is a match on etc.
Honesty box situations are obviously not worth having a tee time system.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon -

People can and do just turn up. A tee time system does not stop that. A tee time system is a live diary though so from your phone you can see it is quiet or maybe there is a match on etc.
Honesty box situations are obviously not worth having a tee time system.

Correct and I fully appreciate that tee time systems are very useful. It is good to see you finally admit that it is not essential for all situations.

Jon

[D_Malley]

I have found that the amount of interval between tee times is crucial to pace of play on a crowded course.

How much interval you have is solely determined by par,yardage, and set-up of the first 3-4 holes on each particular course.

At my club which is a high volume public course we start the day with 8 minute intervals for the first 1-2 hours and switch to 10 minute intervals for the rest of the day.

Par for the first 4 holes is 4-3-5-3 which is far from ideal for spreading out the groups early.

[Paul Gray]

D Malley,

Theoretically at least, whilst people might well be waiting for a bit on the tee, a par 3 second hole should be very useful. Certainly figures show that par 3's are natural points of congestion but that one early on in the round is actually an aid to spacing.

My course begins with an often tough par 3 played straight in to the prevailing wind and it's the perfect start, pace wise that is.

[Matthew Lloyd]

I have a question that's not directly related to the ongoing debate in this thread about tee times v. no tee times, or the exact interval between groups.  And that question is ----

What is the appropriate amount of time to look for a lost ball? 

Most of my own rounds are very informal. I rarely keep score and I expect to hit a decent number of wild shots, so I give up on my own searches quickly in order to keep the pace brisk and to avoid getting frustrated with my own game. But as a result of this, I tend to feel that most people take forever to look for their errant shots.

[Ryan Coles]

What's the best course in Scotland to still operate an honesty box?

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