[Sean_A]

#7 Rye.  Its easy on the eye, but when downwind, there is nowhere to hit the ball and the only miss is short.  A ton of rough needs to be cleared away to accomodate the wind. 

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

#7 Rye.  Its easy on the eye, but when downwind, there is nowhere to hit the ball and the only miss is short.  A ton of rough needs to be cleared away to accomodate the wind. 

Ciao

Sean:

True enough, but could not the same thing be said for the Postage Stamp, the 17th at Sand Hills, and many other famous one-shotters?

We did build a bit of fairway on the 11th at Pacific Dunes to accommodate downwind play.  Some people think that makes the hole too forgiving!

[Sean_A]

#7 Rye.  Its easy on the eye, but when downwind, there is nowhere to hit the ball and the only miss is short.  A ton of rough needs to be cleared away to accomodate the wind. 

Ciao

Sean:

True enough, but could not the same thing be said for the Postage Stamp, the 17th at Sand Hills, and many other famous one-shotters?

We did build a bit of fairway on the 11th at Pacific Dunes to accommodate downwind play.  Some people think that makes the hole too forgiving!

Tom

I don't know, haven't seen PS in many years.  It wasn't too bad when I was there.  In any case, aren't the bunkers the miss except for the left one?  At Rye its just deep rough.  At least the knocked the bushes down shy of the green - its a start.  The 7th is Rye's most famous 3 and I think its the worst of the lot - though its should be the best.  

Another over-rated hole: 16 at TOC.  No left fairway means no Principal's Nose means its just another hole squeezed between trouble with an interesting green.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

18th at Wentworth?
atb

[Jerry Kluger]

Pat brought up the cost to play PB and my question is architecturally is it worth more than 3 times as much to play than Bethpage Black?

[BCowan]

Ben,

# 4 is a spectacular hole.

I'll pass commenting on # 5 since it's new.

# 6, 7, 8, 9 & 10 may be one of the great stretches of golf in the world.

# 17 and # 18 aren't bad either.

#17 really? 

Yes, reallly.
It's a fabulous hole with a very interestingly configured green, with peril left and long.

#6 blind shot with an ocean to the right?

What's wrong with a blind shot ?
And, you have a tremendous amount of room to the left.
Usually, you get a directional assist from a caddy or friend.

Senior Mucci,

    You seriously are going to defend the current #17 at Pebble.  I am curious as to how many of the best players in the world missed that green in regulation when the pin is on the left part of the green.  It is un-hittable during summer and or F&F (Open) like conditions.  I told you that i loved blind shots (without large bodies of water in play) just a man's opinion.

[John Percival]

The key word here is OVERRATED.
Not bad, but ranked too highly based on....hype, or marketing, or history, or tournament.
And lets face it, the ocean does have an effect.
One thing many people do when assessing a hole/cse is look at it thru their game. Fair enough, we're human. But a great hole/cse allows players of many levels to enjoy its quality.

In Ben's defense, when Laura and I played Pebble about 6 years ago, she was a 7 playing out of Indianwood (tough cses).
At the sixth, she piped a drive and flushed a 3 wood second, but couldn't carry the rough onto the upper fairway. Coulda hit a bucket and not made it. And the wind was down as it was very early. So, if she couldnt carry the flat, how do avg women AND SHORTER MEN play the hole?

And, since no one else will say it, remember OVERRATED, not bad, PB18 is the game's most overrated hole. Great closer visually. No. The greatest visually. But the shot qualities are average. OK, water along the entire left, but there is little to no reason to challenge that side. Since the hole is beyond reach in two for 99% of players, a simple 3 wood and lay-up leaves a wedge into a mostly benign green. Not a bad hole, just overrated. As you read this, off the top of your head, you could probably list at least 10 greater 5 pars.
A few others...
The 5 pars at Riviera - probably keep the cse off the top 10
17 at TPC - GREAT tournament hole. Unplayable and unmerciful for many resort guests
18 at Harbour Town - they should just put tees at 185 and play it as a three. Great lighthouse though.

[BCowan]

If Pebble Beach charged $ 100 green fees, golfers would be lined up to Omaha to play it and it would be declared one of the top ten courses in the country...................... universally.

Like Donald Trump's hair, price is the primary objection to the architectural substance of the golf course.

    It has nothing to do with green fees.  I'd rather play any of the Bandon courses, sorry.  The green complex sizes aren't big enough imho.  Again i don't go by the ''Group Thinkers''.  I have friends that have played ANGC and don't have it in their top 10, and that is against the status quo...

[Jim Hoak]

Let's stop berating the 17th at PB.  The left side of the green has shrunk from the bunker encroaching on it, there are plans to restore soon the green and the bunker to their original size, and any problem will be fixed.  #14 green is also being fixed soon.  Let's talk about other things.  It's a magnificent golf course all in all with a couple of blemishes that are being fixed.  These things only happened because of too much play.  Why is there too much play?  Because it's worth every penny charged.

[BCowan]

Jim,

    We know that #17 is being restored.  #6 and #18 were brought up and you failed to address them.  So other things were discussed.  Lemmings line up to play Arcadia Bluffs, people like holes on water.  Yes, it is worth a Continental....

[Craig Disher]

#7 Rye.  Its easy on the eye, but when downwind, there is nowhere to hit the ball and the only miss is short.  A ton of rough needs to be cleared away to accomodate the wind. 

Ciao

Sean,
I thought you had made a typo and really meant #17. #7 really? The rough is a good bit away from the putting surface and a miss long will probably run up a steep bank and roll back into the semi. Where do you miss short? The distance between the sleepers and and the putting surface is just a few feet and below them is the last place on the course you'd want to be. The bushes short right were removed a while ago and a ball hit in that area is actually playable. I think 17 is a far weaker hole.

[Bill_McBride]

The inland holes would be all stars anywhere else, just overshadowed by the ocean holes. 

Enough hyperbole.  I think Pebble is a great course -- a 9 in my book -- but the inland holes are a mixed bag:

2nd, 3rd, 13th, 14th, 16th -- good to very good
1st, 11th, 12th, 15th [as recently butchered] -- fair to poor

Many of these holes would be all stars at a Florida muni.  None of them would be all stars in Bandon or the Hamptons, or on any other top-100 course.

Nothing wrong with a little hyperbole every now and then!

[Niall C]

Sad to say but I think the 1st at Machrihanish may have to come down from it's lofty perch of best opener in Scotland. These days the big headed driver with its ease of hitting and the amount of carry the ball gets has pretty well taken the terror factor out of the opening tee shot. It's still a pretty special hole though.

Niall

[Niall C]

Brian

Let me tell you I heard about the Machrihanish's 1st hole long before I ever saw it. As described to me by my pal who was a much better golfer than me he described playiong over the beach to a series of posts marking the boundary of the beach/fairway and the trick was picking the correct post to go over to cut the corner. Now bear in mind I'm talking about 20 plus years ago when we played with small headed drivers and the ball might have gone similar distances than today but a fair proportion of that was run. Consequently judging how far you could carry the ball and how confident you were of getting a good enough contact with the smaller headed club really was what it was all about. Very easy to bail out to the right which is what I did the first couple of times I played it.

Fast forward 15 or so years to the next time I played it and I'm standing there with a big headed driver that probably didn't go much further than my old one but had a lot more carry and was far easier to hit and suddenly the fear factor had disappated. It just wasn't there. Not only was there no fear but neither did you have to think about the line, you could simply go straight for the green.

Agree about the rest of the course, terrific fun.

Niall

[Jud_T]

18 at Whistling Straights.  Faux hole with a faux clubhouse backdrop.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian S,

Some moron has hacked into your computer and has been posting under your name.
The moron identified himself as such by declaring that the 4th hole at NGLA is overrated.

Josh Stevens,

How can you say that the fairways of the inland holes are nothing special ?
13 ? 14 ? 15 ? & 16 ?
How are they "not special" ?

Which greens, specifically, lack sophistication ?

Which bunkers aren't strategic ?

[Jud_T]

Pat,

You have to at least admit that 12 is a dog.  Like 17 at Crystal Downs, Pebble is the exception that proves the rule that truly great courses don't have bad holes.

[BHoover]

17 at TOC, I mean, who put the cart path so close to the green that it's very much in play?  And why did they build it so close to that hotel?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

You have to at least admit that 12 is a dog. 

Why is it a dog ?

What are it's architectural deficiencies that make it a dog ?

When was the last time you played it ?



Like 17 at Crystal Downs, Pebble is the exception that proves the rule that truly great courses don't have bad holes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Senior Mucci,

    You seriously are going to defend the current #17 at Pebble. 

Absolutely, it's a terrific hole.

I am curious as to how many of the best players in the world missed that green in regulation when the pin is on the left part of the green. 

Is that how a hole is to be judged, by how the PGA Tour Pros play it in January from the back tees ?
Is that the new criteria ?

It's a terrific hole that provides a good deal of variety

It is un-hittable during summer and or F&F (Open) like conditions. 

I didn't have any problem hitting it last August and neither did the fellows I played with.

I told you that i loved blind shots (without large bodies of water in play) just a man's opinion.

To which you are certainly entitled, but, we disagree on the merits of # 17.

[Philip Caccamise]

The key word here is OVERRATED.
Not bad, but ranked too highly based on....hype, or marketing, or history, or tournament.
And lets face it, the ocean does have an effect.
One thing many people do when assessing a hole/cse is look at it thru their game. Fair enough, we're human. But a great hole/cse allows players of many levels to enjoy its quality.

In Ben's defense, when Laura and I played Pebble about 6 years ago, she was a 7 playing out of Indianwood (tough cses).
At the sixth, she piped a drive and flushed a 3 wood second, but couldn't carry the rough onto the upper fairway. Coulda hit a bucket and not made it. And the wind was down as it was very early. So, if she couldnt carry the flat, how do avg women AND SHORTER MEN play the hole?

And, since no one else will say it, remember OVERRATED, not bad, PB18 is the game's most overrated hole. Great closer visually. No. The greatest visually. But the shot qualities are average. OK, water along the entire left, but there is little to no reason to challenge that side. Since the hole is beyond reach in two for 99% of players, a simple 3 wood and lay-up leaves a wedge into a mostly benign green. Not a bad hole, just overrated. As you read this, off the top of your head, you could probably list at least 10 greater 5 pars.
A few others...
The 5 pars at Riviera - probably keep the cse off the top 10
17 at TPC - GREAT tournament hole. Unplayable and unmerciful for many resort guests
18 at Harbour Town - they should just put tees at 185 and play it as a three. Great lighthouse though.

18th at Harbour Town would be much better if it played downwind. Great hole, but too much for most players with the typical sea breeze in your face. It's one thing if you're capable of hitting driver 8 iron into there like the Tour guys... it's another if you're hitting 3 wood or hybrid.

[Connor Dougherty]

And, since no one else will say it, remember OVERRATED, not bad, PB18 is the game's most overrated hole. Great closer visually. No. The greatest visually. But the shot qualities are average. OK, water along the entire left, but there is little to no reason to challenge that side. Since the hole is beyond reach in two for 99% of players, a simple 3 wood and lay-up leaves a wedge into a mostly benign green. Not a bad hole, just overrated. As you read this, off the top of your head, you could probably list at least 10 greater 5 pars.

John,
I'd agree that there are better par 5's in the game, but I don't think for 99% of players it isn't reachable. That's where the 18th becomes one of the only holes in all of golf to be improved by technology. Having played the course a few times since I've been able to hit the ball further, I've put it on the beach twice trying to get it to where I can get it to the green in two and managed to put it in the green side bunker in two the 3rd time. If that number reduces to say, 30% of golfers reaching it in two, then we immediately start complaining that the hole has lost all its teeth when Dustin Johnson is hitting a 9 iron into the green.

It's not the insane world beater some people make it out to be, but it's a pretty darn good hole still.

As for 17, I'm probably somewhere between Ben and Patrick. In soft conditions it's very playable and still a pretty good hole. Given that is how Pebble is 90% of the time now (even in the summer) it sets up quite well. But watching the 2010 US Open turned that hole into a cruel joke. That bunker ate way too much into that green and in that state it was vastly overrated. This thread is the first I've heard of any renovation on that hole and for that I'm grateful.

But this wouldn't be complete without putting my input, so I'm going to go in a slightly different direction: The 15th at Cape Kidnappers, also known as "Pirate's Plank". There's nothing wrong with the hole, in fact, I think the way it's placed in the round is terrific. It's incredible how walking down that fairway, with nothing to focus on but the cliff to the left and the ravine to the right, your knees shake. That subtlety makes it a very intriguing design, and in my opinion, one of the only "Penal" par 5's in the world that actually works. But when people claim that's the greatest hole on the golf course I struggle to think how they came to that conclusion. I wouldn't even put it in the top half of holes at Cape Kidnappers.

[Paul Gray]

17 at TOC, I mean, who put the cart path so close to the green that it's very much in play?  And why did they build it so close to that hotel?

Absolutely. They should get rid of that old wall as well and put a lake in!  

On a more serious note, not one that too many will know but the 4th at Liphook receives, in my opinion,  far too much love.

[Bill_McBride]

On a more serious note, not one that too many will know but the 4th at Liphook receives, in my opinion,  far too much love.

Why?  I loved that hole!   Long par 4 with a carry over heather and a sunken road out into a wide fairway, followed by a long shot into a green that's guarded by an insidious hollow left front of the green.   You don't want to hear the ugly details of my triple bogey after tugging a pitch into that pit of despair to lose the hole to Chappers with a stroke in hand.  

[J_ Crisham]

18 at Whistling Straights.  Faux hole with a faux clubhouse backdrop.

+1 , worst finishing hole by Pete Dye IMO -  it's a shame because it is otherwise a very solid course. The par 5 ,  #5? Is pretty pedestrian as well.

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