[Jason Thurman]

I had the good fortune of playing Ballyhack yesterday as part of a whirlwind weekend trip. I wish I could have stuck around a little longer and spent a few days at the club, and I hope to do so in the future (maybe at a George Cup). But playing just a single round there gave an interesting perspective.

For those who haven't played it, Ballyhack really has a ton of options, which makes it unusual among very severe properties in my experience. Like many clubs with a lot of options and/or severe properties, the club prints a tip sheet for first-time players to help them navigate and brief them on some of the strategies of the holes.

What stood out about Ballyhack's tip sheet was its lack of clarity. It never said authoritatively that the play on a hole is to "hit it 230 yards up the left side." Instead, it offers more cryptic messages like "The ideal line is to go right over the middle bunker, if you're a long hitter." In the case referenced, the are actually four visible bunkers and so the player first must use some judgment to determine which is the "middle" one, and then must honestly assess his game to determine whether he's a "long hitter" or not. The result is just a bit of indecision mixed with encouragement to be aggressive, and a recipe for the prideful player to find himself humbled. I found that throughout the round the sheet offered as much confusion as clarity about the proper play, but added immensely to the enjoyment of the round as it helped me to see options I may not have noticed otherwise (even if my awareness of those options only added indecision to my approach).

When I play a complicated course that I don't expect to play often in the future, I don't want a bunch of "spoilers" to be given to me by an experienced player, a caddie, or a tip sheet. I want guidance from that member/caddie/sheet, but I also want to be able to discover the course myself. I'm sure Ballyhack's tip sheet would put off a lot of players who would rather be told what the right play is, but I really enjoyed that it gave just a bit of guidance without taking away the ability to make decisions.

I can't think of another course that has ever produced a tip sheet that I found truly added to my enjoyment of the round. Has anyone else? Does anyone else feel like some courses/caddies/members are too quick to give "spoilers" to the strategies of a course instead of letting the player discover the course themselves? And if so, what is the right amount of information to give to help a player appreciate the architecture without "spoiling" the discovery?

[Bill_McBride]

What I really love is the "Pro's Tip" on the yardage guide that says, "Hit it long and straight on this hole."

Who'd a guessed?   

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't carry a score card let alone a manual.  One of my favorite results was thinking that I had just parred the 12th at Torrey Pines South until we reached the 13th tee and my partners told me that there were not two par fives in a row.

Did you play Ballyhack alone and if so why?

One of the downsides of not carrying a scorecard is that the courses at Streamsong are now a complete fog in my mind.  I have no clue who did what where or really need to know.  Yes, I have teed off and played to the wrong green before, in a junior tournament none the less.

I want to meet the guy who gets to the 15th at Cypress and thinks that the hole is shorter than what he had heard.  Get it...he thinks it is the famous 16th.

[Jason Thurman]

I very nearly played to the wrong green on the second hole at Rustic Canyon. Thankfully I had a scorecard with me, or I likely would have. After looking at the yardage, I figured out that I shouldn't be hitting toward what turned out to be the 5th green.

I ended up playing as a single thanks to a handful of poorly thought out decisions. I RSVP'd for the wedding too early and, after talking my wife out of the trip because she pees way too much, won't let me stop for golf, would have to sit alone while I handled bridal party responsibilities, and gets carsick constantly, I sent back that I would not be bringing my +1. My golf pro buddy and I were planning on traveling and playing together anyways, as we were both slated to be groomsmen until he had to back out at the last minute when he couldn't get the day off. At that point I probably should have sent a PM to a GCAer or two who's a member there, but I didn't want to be an access whore. If I'd have been smart, I'd have gotten one of my golf buddies to travel as my +1. But then again, maybe a dude bringing a dude to a wedding is frowned upon in this particular denomination. The politics of wedding trip golf can be surprisingly tricky. I gotta admit, I felt like a royal jackass in the locker room seeing the names of guys I know from this site and playing their course without checking to see if they would to join me (after securing the access so as not to be a whore, of course).

[jeffwarne]

no tip sheet could ever compare to our cart "path" routing directions

[AKikuchi]

I gotta admit, I felt like a royal jackass in the locker room seeing the names of guys I know from this site and playing their course without checking to see if they would to join me (after securing the access so as not to be a whore, of course).

I can certainly relate to your concern, but isn't Rustic Canyon semi-private?

[Bill_McBride]

Public.   

[Matthew Essig]

The only spoiler or tip I give to guests is the hidden "pull" on the greens that you can't read and which direction it will tend to go. I only remind them a couple of times (once at the beginning and an example at the first green). I only do it because, when I don't, guests have a rough and angry day on the greens.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I don't carry a score card let alone a manual. 

Please tell us you still keep score and have not gone completely architecture-dork native.

[astavrides]

What I really love is the "Pro's Tip" on the yardage guide that says, "Hit it long and straight on this hole."

Who'd a guessed?   

"Make your club selection carefully on this challenging par 3."

[Carl Rogers]

I think a certain number and type of spoilers are needed on a course like Ballyhack, complicated, potentially very penal to the uninformed, you need to know what not to do, many recovery shots not remotely possible, bunkers are more severe than first appearance .... I have played about 8 rounds there now, before, during and after the George Cup.

[Bill_McBride]

I think a certain number and type of spoilers are needed on a course like Ballyhack, complicated, potentially very penal to the uninformed, you need to know what not to do, many recovery shots not remotely possible, bunkers are more severe than first appearance .... I have played about 8 rounds there now, before, during and after the George Cup.

Ballyhack is a very confusing course (damn you Lester!), having a few clues first time around if you aren't playing with a member would be very helpful. 

I say "confusing" in the nicest possible way.   

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't carry a score card let alone a manual. 

Please tell us you still keep score and have not gone completely architecture-dork native.

I always know what I'm shooting I just only have a general knowledge of what hole I am on.  This actually is one of the very few blessings that have come with age.

[Wade Whitehead]

Jason:

Call me next time and I'll tell you as little as you want to know.

WW

[Kevin Lynch]

Ballyhack is a course where the tip sheet really can't be definitive because the options change significantly depending on your teeing ground or your Driver length.  It's not just a matter of distance, but completely different angles.  On the 2nd tee, my intended line changes a good 30 degrees given a 25-30 yard change in teeing ground.  Same goes for the 10th tee.  On top of that, it's hard to quantify the impact elevation change will have on your intended shots.

If I'm playing a complicated course and may only have one shot at it, I want a little bit of guidance, simply because I won't have the chance to apply what I've learned until it's too late.  But if I'm playing several rounds, I'm more willing to play a little more "blind."

In either case, I usually collect yardage books wherever I play. Not so much to be a slave to them or have things explicitly spelled out, but as a tool to recollect holes or evaluate other possible strategies I may have missed during my first play.  And in cases where there's truly blind landing zones, I'd like even a vague idea of what's ahead.

The beauty of the George Cup event (besides the format) is that Wade really mixes up the tees over the weekend so you get to see certain holes play several distinct ways.  I've played roughly 15-20 rounds there and rarely have a "standard" teeing strategy on the 4s and 5s.  Ballyhack is definitely one of the most interesting, option-filled, thrilling courses I've ever played.  I hope you can make it to the George Cup in October.

[Nigel Islam]

I don't carry a score card let alone a manual. 

Please tell us you still keep score and have not gone completely architecture-dork native.

I always know what I'm shooting I just only have a general knowledge of what hole I am on.  This actually is one of the very few blessings that have come with age.

I NEVER write my score down until after the round, but I do carry a scorecard because I play so many different pasture fields in the Tri State area that I'm often not sure what course I am at without the card.

[Scott Weersing]

Ballyhack is a course where the tip sheet really can't be definitive because the options change significantly depending on your teeing ground or your Driver length.  It's not just a matter of distance, but completely different angles.  On the 2nd tee, my intended line changes a good 30 degrees given a 25-30 yard change in teeing ground.  Same goes for the 10th tee.  On top of that, it's hard to quantify the impact elevation change will have on your intended shots.

If I'm playing a complicated course and may only have one shot at it, I want a little bit of guidance, simply because I won't have the chance to apply what I've learned until it's too late.  But if I'm playing several rounds, I'm more willing to play a little more "blind."

In either case, I usually collect yardage books wherever I play. Not so much to be a slave to them or have things explicitly spelled out, but as a tool to recollect holes or evaluate other possible strategies I may have missed during my first play.  And in cases where there's truly blind landing zones, I'd like even a vague idea of what's ahead.

The beauty of the George Cup event (besides the format) is that Wade really mixes up the tees over the weekend so you get to see certain holes play several distinct ways.  I've played roughly 15-20 rounds there and rarely have a "standard" teeing strategy on the 4s and 5s.  Ballyhack is definitely one of the most interesting, option-filled, thrilling courses I've ever played.  I hope you can make it to the George Cup in October.

I would agree with Kevin that the different sets of tees give Ballyhack great variety and appeal. I like that there are short par 4s where you can go for the green, no. 6 and no. 11,  or multiple options to reach the green, no 15. And then there is no. 5 with a blind fairway. I am not sure what the tip sheet would say as there are so many options on no. 5. You can hit a driver through the end of the fairway or layup with a hybrid and then hit a hybrid into the green.

I like Ballyhack because it is the opposite of "the course is right there in front of you." Each hole has a variety of ways to play it and to post a high number.

[Kevin Lynch]

I like Ballyhack because it is the opposite of "the course is right there in front of you." Each hole has a variety of ways to play it and to post a high number.

I've definitely proven the latter half of that last sentence several times, even on holes that are "right in front of you." I came up just short of #2 on my second shot and the new guy we played with said "nice shot - up and down for birdie" while all along I knew "nope - that's dead." 


I guess the question Jason is asking is whether you want someone to put the "huge Red X" on the course guide for you or learn the hard way, like I did.  Of course, that same "Red X" spot is "Position A" once the pin position moves, which makes the hole even more special.

Like everything else, there's probably some balance that needs to be achieved in the level of guidance.  There's a huge difference between an "uncertain blind shot" and a "completely clueless, guessing blind shot."  I like discovering the former, but the latter doesn't give me much joy.

In the case of Ballyhack's second hole, I'd prefer to discover the "Red X" area on my own, because I might have been able to figure it out if I was really in tune with my game (i.e. it shouldn't have been a complete surprise). 

[Kevin Lynch]

When I first saw this topic, I thought it may have been more about "macro" level spoilers regarding the whole feel/vibe of a course, rather than a "micro" approach regarding strategies for specific shots.

I'm into avoiding any spoilers when it comes to a new course, including any photos or vistas.  I was fortunate enough to have pulled into Tobacco Road and Ballyhack without ever seeing a single image of the two courses.  There's nothing like the surprise of seeing the entire front nine at Ballyhack laid out in front of you for the first time, or the repeated "Wow!" shots at Tobacco.  Being freed from any preconceived expectations really allows courses like those to blow you away.

Of course, avoiding any expectations on courses has become more & more difficult with my participation on this site.  I've avoided pictures of the Streamsongs (except the one Par 3 you can't seem to avoid) as well as Dismal (except for rare shots appearing in miscellaneous threads).  Even so, the discussions and comparisons of these courses to others has made it a little more difficult to ever play them without some semblance of expectation, despite fighting as hard as I can to avoid it.

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