[Jim Hoak]

I was getting ready to answer the question of the best course within 50 miles of my home, and I realized that there are several pretty good courses nearby, but none really good or great courses.  If pushed, I'd say Colonial is the answer--but while I think it is a fine course, it doesn't bowl me over.  Whispering Pines is good, but doesn't rise to the great level. 
There are few if any Texas courses on the golf magazine lists, certainly not in keeping with our percent of the US in people or economy.  Few courses are mentioned on this site as worthy of national attention.  We are the second largest state by population.  We are in the top 3 of great golfers, many resident pros, good college teams, many legends of the greatest golfers of all times.  Yet we are deficient in truly great courses.
Is it purely that the topography of Texas does not lend itself to great courses?  Is the clay-based soil not conducive to producing great conditioning?  Do the wild weather swings limit courses?  Or what is it?
I'm sure some will say that I'm being too hard on my home state, but why do we have to travel out of state to find really great golf courses?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Jim
I agree
I answered your question verbally in my first interview 9 years ago:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/mike-nuzzo-april-2005/

And a later answered with a new golf course, Wolf Point, that was built on what some would call a poor site.

I'd like to think we could improve on both, the original written answer to your question, and Wolf Point.

Cheers
Mike

[Jim Hoak]

We are also the second biggest state in land size.  And have great geographic and geologic diversity.  We have deserts, we have mountains, we have great coast line.
We have wonderful amateur golf.  We have good junior programs.  We have a huge number of golfers.
We have business successes and wealth.
But, still, we don't have any world-class golf courses.

[Bill_McBride]

We are also the second biggest state in land size.  And have great geographic and geologic diversity.  We have deserts, we have mountains, we have great coast line.
We have wonderful amateur golf.  We have good junior programs.  We have a huge number of golfers.
We have business successes and wealth.
But, still, we don't have any world-class golf courses.

Yes you do.  Wolf Point. 

[Tim_Weiman]

Jim,

I can honestly say that I was about 2-3 years old when I fell in love with golf courses. As a result, whenever I travel or am just driving around I look at the land and try to imagine a golf course.

About four years ago I moved to Houston. So far I haven't seen a single piece of land that makes me imagine a golf course. People here hate it when I say so, but there simply is no land in Houston.

[Peter Pallotta]

Jim - I wonder if some of it is 'cultural' for lack of a better term. It strikes me that the early stories about golf/golf courses in, say, the northeast were about the great amateur architects and leading amateur golfers, and the private monied clubs that came with them; while when I think of the great old Texas stories, they seem to be mostly the rags to riches tales of caddies like Hogan and Nelson finding their games in the dirt. I guess what I'm suggesting is that maybe it has to do with a underlying ethos in Texas that (with a few exceptions) didn't manifest itself in trying to build private courses that (invariably) were dubbed the finest in the land aimed at a very well established and wealthy leisure class.
In short, maybe it's because Texas has had different kind of rich people than in New York/New Jersey, Chicago and Pennsylvania.

All just guessing out loud.

Peter

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

I've always asked myself that question.

Certainly it can't be a lack of money.

AWT and PM made forays into Texas, but, given the size of the state and population centers, there seems to be a paucity of world class golf courses..

And, in Texas, traveling a half an hour to an hour to play a great golf course wouldn't seem to be an impediment.

As to topography, I don't see that being an impediment.

Could it be that Texas really didn't get the "golf bug" as did other areas of the country.
Washington, DC also suffers from a lack of quality courses, but, that area is minute in comparison to the vast area known as Texas.

[Joel_Stewart]

Jim,

I've always asked myself that question.

Same here especially considering the professionals that have come from Texas.

They have had some decent attempts in recent years, Newport Dunes looked promising especially considering its Palmer.  Dallas National was a huge disappointment for me.

The same could be said for Hawaii.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel,

In my interactions with folks from Texas, including my uncle Tony who became a transplanted Texan, there was always a "biggest and best" attitude exuded by Texans, a pride in everything they did, hence, the paucity of great courses is a mystery to me.

Texas went through an economic boon that brought great wealth to cities like Dallas, Houston and others, and while AWT, PM and others ventured to Texas, they didn't seem to create courses in quantity and quality.

Given the enormity of the state, and the variety in topography, combined with the wealth, you would have thought that the state would have an abundance of great courses.

But, from 1920 to 1960 how many good to great courses were introduced.

If you go to Mammaroneck, New York, within a few blocks of each other there are four world class golf courses.
Winged Foot West, Winged Foot East, Fenway and Quaker Ridge.
And, AWT was the man.
With all the wealth in Texas, why wasn't he lured there to produce great courses.

I don't have the time now, but, it would be interesting to create a time line to see when the good courses in Texas came into being.

It could be that golf, recreational golf, just wasn't the sport of interest.
I've also thought the same thing about Kentucky and other Southern States.

[Ben Malach]

This thread is fitting for me as I see the same problem in Alberta. Maybe the oil and gas industry does not invest in golf courses in the same way as other industries.

[Lou_Duran]

Nonsense.  Plenty of excellent golf courses all over Texas.  Just not the type by the ODGs that some of you are so imprinted on.

[Jim Jackson]

One of the big opportunities for Texas golf may have been around 2000-2001, when Tom Fazio designed four big budget courses in Texas, among them Dallas National.  This is 5+ years after the completion of Sand Hills.  Wonder what would have transpired if Mr. Crenshaw, based just up the road in Austin, would have gotten those jobs?

AWT was mentioned previously, and although he made a cameo appearance in Texas, of his 15+ designs here, only 4 are originals (Oak Hills, Brackenridge Park, Ft. Sam Houston - all in San Antonio; Brook Hollow in Dallas).  The others are modifications, consultations, etc.  Oak Hills is a solid golf course.  A few modifications over the years have tempered some of the Tillie, but still well worth a round if you're in the San Antonio area.

[mike_beene]

Let me throw 4 Dallas courses out there that are seldom mentioned: Brook Hollow is a sandy soiled traditional course ; Dallas Country Club has been the recipient of the best redo I have seen with Fought building green complexes that feel like Pinehurst 2 with a little Chicago Golf Club thrown in; Lakewood is under the knife from Coore and Crenshaw and every bunker has been changed added or subtracted and I think will be looked back at as a fine redo(both DCC and Lakewood were staked by Bendelow in 1912); Northwood is very fine and while the US Open never came back the course has to be much improved from the 4 year old that hosted the Open. Throw in the great bunker redo by Colligan at Ridgewood in Waco with its site on the lake. How does Colonial in the river bottoms come close to these 5 courses. When I hear that Colonial is all there is it seems the person making the statement has little knowledge of these courses or last saw them years ago. Just my opinion.

[Sven Nilsen]

We covered this same topic a couple years back:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53650.0.html

Its interesting to look at the 1930 census numbers cited by Kyle Krahenbuhl in that thread:

Boston - 780,000
NY - 7 million
Chicago - 3.5 million
Philly - 2 million

Dallas - 260,000
Houston - 300,000

As for Texas courses of note from that era, here are some of the early architects working in Texas prior to 1940:

Findlay:  Beaumont, San Antonio
Bendelow:  Corpus Christi, Dallas, El Paso, Fort Worth, Glen Garden, Lakewood, River Crest, TCC (San Antonio)
Tillinghast:  Brackenridge Park, Brook Hollow, Cedar Crest, Corsicana, Dallas, Fort Sam Houston, Fort Worth, Oak Hills (a/k/a Alamo), San Antonio
Bredemus:  Austin, Cherokee, Colonial, Ebony Hill, Galveston, Glen Garden, Odessa
Maxwell:  Brook Hollow, Colonial, Mount Pleasant, Walnut Hills
Mungo Park:  Galveston
Ross: Galveston Municipal, River Oaks, Sunset Grove
Langford/Moreau:  State Line
Loeffler:  Willow Springs

And here's the list of courses that Tillie visited in the '30's:

Houston - River Oaks, Houston CC
San Antonio - Brackenridge Park, Riverside
Austin - Austin CC
Waco - Spring Lake, Glen Garden, Worth Hills
Fort Worth - Colonial, Ridglea, Z Boaz, River Crest
Dallas - Lakewood, Dallas, Bob-O-Links, Brook Hollow, Glen Lakes, City Park Municipal, Cedar Crest
Corsicana - Corsicana CC
Tyler- Willowbrook (described by Tillie as a "terrible layout")
Galveston - Brae Burn, River Oaks, Houston CC, Galveston CC
Lufkin - Memorial Park Municipal

[Randy Thompson]

Itīs not for lack of money, there were plenty of projects that spent the bucks, big bucks! Natural land in general is not the best but Austin had some pretty good sites. Hard to gain any respect on this site with in general flat land. Florida and Texas are always being beaten down on this site. Both are pretty much flat.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Nonsense.  Plenty of excellent golf courses all over Texas.  Just not the type by the ODGs that some of you are so imprinted on.

Lou,

Can you name ten (10) great courses built in Texas between 1920 and 1960 ?

[Nigel Islam]

Nonsense.  Plenty of excellent golf courses all over Texas.  Just not the type by the ODGs that some of you are so imprinted on.

Lou,

Can you name ten (10) great courses built in Texas between 1920 and 1960 ?

I think Sven just covered what was built in that time frame. Never played in Texas, but it would seem Brook Hollow and Colonial would be the best candidates for "great."

[mike_beene]

If you take the 1920 limitation off and go back to the teens then I named 5 in my list,you say Colonial which makes 6.Add the Blue Course at DAC.Preston Trail was probably 1964 so it won't qualify. There are 7 just from the Dallas area. Not sure the definition of great but if golf were a winter ,spring or fall sport you would have heard of them.They are not top 10 but so what?There are only a few Pine Valleys. I think just because it is in Texas people assume it is no good. Pick any course and put it on its identical property in Texas and it falls 100 places in rankings.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Nigel,

I've played Brook Hollow and it's a nice course, but, I wouldn't put it in the "great" category.

I had friends and clients who were members of Colonial, and was invited numerous times, but, I never got a chance to play it.

Posting the names of existing courses that AWT visited has no bearing on the quality of courses in Texas.
I'm sure that AWT visited many courses throughout the country in the course of his project with the PGA.

Of the courses Sven listed, which ones were "great" ?

[Jason Topp]

While it is a broad generalization with some notable exceptions, the courses in Texas tend to look more artificial than courses in other areas.  The first image that popped in my head when seeing the thread title was of concrete and sharp edged water hazards that look like the work of the Army Corps of Engineers.  It is a striking contrast to North Carolina which seems to have a similar climate.       

[Patrick_Mucci]

If you take the 1920 limitation off and go back to the teens then I named 5 in my list,you say Colonial which makes 6.

Add the Blue Course at DAC.Preston Trail was probably 1964 so it won't qualify.

I've played Preston Trail and liked the course, clubhouse and everything about it, but, I wouldn't classify the course as "great"

There are 7 just from the Dallas area.
Not sure the definition of great but if golf were a winter ,spring or fall sport you would have heard of them.


The fact is that we haven't heard of them.
It's a rare day when a "great" course remains unknown, especially in Texas.

They are not top 10 but so what?
There are only a few Pine Valleys.

Yes, but there are top 50's and top 100's and top 200's and Texas is woefully lacking in those categories.

I think just because it is in Texas people assume it is no good.

I'd disagree, I think people expect there to be good to great courses in Texas.
Why do you feel otherwise ?

Pick any course and put it on its identical property in Texas and it falls 100 places in rankings.

That's sheer nonsense.

[Sven Nilsen]

I think it comes down to a matter of timing.

When golf hit its biggest boom in the 20's, the fact is that they were building golf courses in Texas.  But at the time Texas had a much smaller population than it does today, especially when considered on a relative basis with the other major US cities of today.

If you track the growth of cities like Dallas and Houston, they really blew up after World War II, seeing their greatest growth between 1940 and 1970.  This time periods happens to correspond with the dark days of golf course construction in this country.  It seems to me like there's been some catching up going on in the last 30 years or so, but if you compare the bigger cities in Texas to other major US cities, they don't have the dearth of classic era courses that you'd see in the likes of Boston, New York, Chicago, San Francisco and Los Angeles.

As for why none of the classic era courses that were built are considered truly "great," it probably has to do with where the architects and construction teams of the day were located.  If you map out the locations of the "great" classic era courses, you'll find that they're concentrated around the historic population centers, all of which were a good ways away from the Lone Star State.  It was one thing to move a construction team from Westchester County to New Jersey, it was a completely different proposition to get your best guys all the way down to Dallas.

Sven

[Nigel Islam]

Pat to answer your question with regards to Kentucky earlier. Kentucky just doesn't have many courses period. I forget the number, but its somewhere in the neighborhood of 275. I think that includes par 3 and executive courses. The state has a single Ross, a single Travis and a smattering of Langford's. (and a few faux Maxwells)  Tennesse is a similar story. Georgia ad the Carolina's fared better probably due to ocean and climate. Not sure what happened to Virginia in the Golden Age.

[mike_beene]

Here are my only points: I cringe when Colonial is offered as the best course in Texas and offer the original 5 plus Preston Trail as  just in the metroplex. I put them all behind Oakmont ,Muirfield, The Old Course, cypress,etc but so what? Their absence from a too 200 list is just opinion often from people who played Brook Hollow a few times and see Colonial on TV. Not worth arguing about. I am just saying that we have old courses you would enjoy very much that are as good as anything else save a few Pine Valleys. I agree we don't have the depth of quality courses but that seems to be changing.I agree on Preston Trail,especially the back 9 which gets real estate feeling and flat.

[Sven Nilsen]

Nigel:

If you look at the numbers, there's a bit of a mystery as to why some states seemed to build a course in every small town, while others were a bit more hit and miss.  Kansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Wisconsin and Texas are five examples of states that saw a ton of development in the 20's, while the number of courses in the states you named (and also states like Alabama and Mississippi) is a bit less impressive.

It probably just comes down to population sizes and density, as well as where the money was.

Sven

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