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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #50 on: May 06, 2014, 07:40:35 PM »
Phil:

Perhaps its time for someone with more knowledge than me on the subject to chime in, but I believe I've heard that Ross borrowed several pre-existing playing corridors in his routing.  Would be interesting to know exactly what was his and what he inherited.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Phil McDade

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #51 on: May 06, 2014, 07:55:57 PM »
Phil:

Perhaps its time for someone with more knowledge than me on the subject to chime in, but I believe I've heard that Ross borrowed several pre-existing playing corridors in his routing.  Would be interesting to know exactly what was his and what he inherited.

Sven

He did, and darn if I've misplaced my history of the club somewhere in the clutter of my other hundreds of books around here (I'm blaming the kids, who actually did have it out a few days ago! ;D). Original layout by George O'Neil (including the original corridor of the 1st), but in between O'Neil's first layout and the Ross re-do, the club came into additional land (on both nines), greatly enhancing the ability to route a strong 18. My recollection is that Ross took much more advantage of the front nine ridge line than O'Neil, and had more room to capture some of the interesting terrain of the back nine. Messrs. Crisham and Lavin would know more details.

J_ Crisham

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #52 on: May 06, 2014, 08:03:36 PM »
Phil, I have a copy of the original drawing in my lap as we speak.On the front nine number 1 is about all that is left of George O'Neils work. 2 was a par 3 that went back to the SE above the ridge line . 3 was a dogleg right off the ridge of 450 yds.

Matthew Sander

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #53 on: May 06, 2014, 08:15:49 PM »
Phil:

Its also interesting to note that on each nine, only two consecutive holes run in the same general direction (1 and 2, 11 and 12).

Sven

Sven:

I've always thought Ross' little switchback on the 3rd was the key to utilizing the best features of the land on the front nine. I can imagine him assessing the property and thinking: wonderful elevated tee for the 2nd, perfect natural green site for the 5th, ridge to valley par 3 (6th), abrupt use of the land for 7 (the three-hole stretch that for me is the highlight of the front nine). So how does he get to those? By turning the fairway slightly left on the 2nd (which avoids a long straight fairway running parallel to Western Avenue), and finding room for the 3rd and 4th tee on a relatively undistinguished portion of land. It's not too uncommon to find courses where holes switch directions frequently, but to do so on such a restricted site is the mark of a very good routing. Not surprising to see such thoughtfulness in a Ross course.

One other observation that gets to the quality/intimacy of the routing and the restricted nature of the site - If I'm not mistaken, from every hole (at least from a point on every hole) you can see a perimeter property boundary line. However, rarely (if ever) do you feel at all crowded by hole corridors.

Phil McDade

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #54 on: May 06, 2014, 08:25:30 PM »
However, rarely (if ever) do you feel at all crowded by hole corridors.

Well, that's coming up shortly I believe. ;D


Andrew Lewis

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #55 on: May 06, 2014, 11:16:34 PM »
A few random comments and thoughts:

--The Lavin Transfusion Airstrike is well known at the Bev. In fact, I think that's how I ended up joining the place, although my recollections and all sources who could potentially corroborate are specially sketchy.

--For such a small property, the course for me never feels cramped. I assume Phil's remark foreshadows his view of the fourth hole, which curves inside the northeast corner of the property. I would agree that the space is tighter than other holes and the angle of play is sharp, but I don't find it cramped. There is plenty of room on a more conservative line and less on a more aggressive one. I don't want to scoop my forthcoming post on that hole but I will say that I have seen more balls hit off the property on 5 and 11 thank I have on 4.

--As noted, Beverly was lucky to have come through the winter in excellent shape. I understand that was not the case for many other area courses and am hopeful that the weather and growing conditions improve quickly so that all in the Windy City can finally get into the swing of things...

Terry Lavin

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2014, 06:27:12 AM »
The course got tighter when 87th Street was built, cutting the course into two big rectangles. There is OB on eleven holes, so there's undeniably a feeling of being hemmed in here and there, especially on 4,5 and 9 on the front and 10,11 and 13, particularly if one is a slicer, as the fence line is almost always on the right. Members have grown accustomed and know better how to keep it in bounds, but it gets intimidating for a newbie on a few tee boxes.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Andrew Lewis

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #57 on: May 07, 2014, 07:31:29 AM »
Hole #4 (Par 4, 395 yds / 386 yds)

The drive – After (hopefully!) surviving the third, exiting the green to the left and ascending another built-up pad, the player will pause on the fourth tee in search of a head-clearing moment.  But such moments are scarce at the Bev. 

Set hard against Western Avenue (Is it me, or does “hard against the Firth of Forth” sound much cooler?) and the Dan Ryan Woods on the player’s right, the fourth tee offers a sensory experience unlike any other.  Cars whizzing by just behind the treeline.  Michael Jackson’s “Thriller” blaring from monster speakers in the park.  Aromas of slow-cooked meat wafting through the air.  The 10am PHL-MDW on Southwest banking into its final approach overhead.  Did I mention this is a loud place to play golf?  (Insider’s Tip – The smell of BBQ will make you hungry!)

The hole plays back against the direction of the third to the northwest and takes a sharp dogleg left due west around the third tee and past the second green on the left and inside the property boundary on the right.  The land is flat.  A large, dying tree and a long almost Saraha-like expanse of bunker (Note the obligatory CB Mac reference – this is, after all, the GCA discussion group goddammit!) cover the inner corner of the dogleg.  Rough, some trees, a retaining fence and 83rd Street beyond guard the outside edge. 

The player again has options:  a straight hybrid to the corner leaving around 180 yards on the approach; a 3-wood over the edge of the trap to leave 160 yards; or a high driver over/around the tree to leave a flip wedge.  (Insider’s Tip – If you hit driver, be sure that you draw it, as a block brings 83rd Street most definitely into play!)

The more conservative lines offer a generous target around the bend of the dogleg, with a flat lie in a fairly shallow trap posing the only real danger.  The more aggressive lines require smartly struck ball flights that can navigate the trap/trees on the left and then, like a yo-yo, stop quickly in the thin fairway – trees on the right will normally partially obscure shots that run through to the rough.

Again, the architect poses several questions with the tee shot:   Which shot are you capable of hitting?  In which club do you have the most confidence?  On a firm day can you judge the roll-out?  And how aggressive do you care to be at this point in your match?

The approach – The approach obviously can vary considerably based on what happened off the tee.  With a wedge or short iron in hand, the player can take aggressive aim at the pushed-up green.  With a longer iron or fairway wood, he must take note of the three deep bunkers that flank the front-left, left side and right side of the green, as well as a confounding fourth concealed over the back edge of the green – perfectly positioned to capture over-cooked running shots and aerial approaches that land too deep and skip beyond the green, and one of only two of its type on the course.

The preceding comment assumes, of course, that the player has found the fairway.  Recoveries from the inside corner of the dogleg will require a low, hooking draw; recoveries from the right rough just the opposite.  And in both cases, the perched nature of the green and fronting, side and back traps make for a very difficult shot.

The green – The green is typical of Beverly – back to front slope, a bisecting vertical ridge and a few micro-shelves – and not particularly noteworthy other than its relatively small size.

Other commentary – The fourth hole is one of the more readily criticized on the course, along with the ninth.  Interestingly, both occupy corners of the front nine property and play as doglegs left.

Many take issue with the tee shot due to the sharp angle of play and paucity of runout space before the rough and retaining fence.  Others gripe about the dying tree and trap (double hazard!) guarding the inside corner and how the prudent line both takes driver out of their hands and, even if executed well, leaves a lengthy approach to a small, elevated green.

I initially disliked the hole but have grown to appreciate it more with each play.  True, it remains one of the weaker in the set of 18, but the challenge of judging wind, line and strike on the ball is a good one, and the “bite off as much as you can” nature of the tee shot is unique to the course.

I will be curious to see what happens when the dying tree, ahem, actually dies.  The challenge of a driver or 3-wood over the corner will be lessened considerably.  Perhaps we should consider extending the Sahara-esque bunker out into the fairway on an angled bias?  Or install a companion trap on the other side of the fairway?  In any case, something surely will need to be done.

JC Jones

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2014, 07:40:48 AM »
Andrew,

Why do you say that something surely will need to be done?  I think the combination of bunker and run-out on the other side provide plenty of challenge to the player taking that route. 
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Andrew Lewis

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #59 on: May 07, 2014, 08:58:34 AM »
Andrew,

Why do you say that something surely will need to be done?  I think the combination of bunker and run-out on the other side provide plenty of challenge to the player taking that route. 

I agree that the bunker and run-out provide a challenge, but don't think it would remain sufficient for the better, longer-hitting player without the tree.

That line currently requires height, bend and distance control.  Without the tree, neither height nor bend would matter as much thereby making the shot much easier for better players but similarly difficult for those who are lesser skilled.

I believe it is Pete Dye who likes to talk about introducing challenges that make the better player think twice, but that remain out of reach or mind for the hack.  I find that relevant in this case so that without the tree, the delta in difficulty for better vs average players doesn't needlessly expand.

But who knows.  Things and people at the Bev tend to be survivors -- many buildings have withstood tornadoes over the years -- so perhaps the discussion will be moot when the dying tree outlasts us all.   :)

Terry Lavin

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2014, 09:30:35 AM »
It would be great to see evidence of disease in the big locust on the inside of the dogleg in front of the fairway bunker. It stops balls going in the sand and it shrinks the balls of players contemplating the power drive cutting off the dogleg and leaving a flop shot into the green. The margin of error owing to the angle, narrowness of fairway and OB on the right is the great counterbalance, leading to a perfect risk/reward opportunity. This becomes more appealing if that tree is turned into firewood.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Phil McDade

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #61 on: May 07, 2014, 09:37:10 AM »
When I played the 4th during the Senior Mid-Am outing organized by Lavin and others (referenced in the 2009 thread), this was the one hole one of my playing partners (playing Beverly for the first time, I believe) objected to -- somewhat. He was long off the tee, and although the bland-colored fence bordering the northern boundary of the course is visible, I don't believe he thought he could reach it. He ended up right up against it, with little ability to do anything than punch something out semi-toward the green. He hit it right where he aimed, and just didn't realize (I think) that he could reach the fence (I had no such problems, being the short hitter off the tee that I am). A first-timer's mistake, perhaps. But the golfer who is long -- and unable to work the ball right to left, or unwilling to take on the corner -- has to think about what club to draw here on the tee. I actually like that about the hole; Beverly tends to be a course where pulling driver on the tee often is the right move, because the par 5s are all lengthy, and several of the par 4s provide advantages the longer one is off the tee (notably the next hole coming up). #4 makes you think.

Aside of the drive, I think this is one of the best approach shots at Beverly. It's all there in front of you -- pushed-up green, nearly completely surrounded by sand, OB hard right, and trouble left. As I mentioned in the first thread, this shot is where Beverly (for me) really starts to get its mojo -- the course really takes off from here.

« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 01:00:45 PM by Phil McDade »

Andrew Buck

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2014, 10:06:06 AM »
The course got tighter when 87th Street was built, cutting the course into two big rectangles. There is OB on eleven holes, so there's undeniably a feeling of being hemmed in here and there, especially on 4,5 and 9 on the front and 10,11 and 13, particularly if one is a slicer, as the fence line is almost always on the right. Members have grown accustomed and know better how to keep it in bounds, but it gets intimidating for a newbie on a few tee boxes.

As a player that  is more comfortable playing a slight draw, I also find the OB right one of the more difficult parts of Beverly.  Aiming down the OB line is a surefire way for me to get quick and pull hook a tee shot, particularly on 5, 11 and 13. 

I feel like I would become well acquainted with the left tree line on those holes if I played there regularly. 
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 10:08:08 AM by Andrew Buck »

Andrew Buck

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2014, 10:18:04 AM »
Andrew,

How far is the carry over the bunker on 4?  It's been a few years for me (and I've lost some distance as I age), but I seem to remember a fairway wood that carries 230'ish would pretty safely carry the bunker over the middle-left portion and leave an approach inside 150. 

Andrew Lewis

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #64 on: May 07, 2014, 11:36:03 AM »
He was long off the tee, and although the bland-colored fence bordering the northern boundary of the course is visible, I don't believe he thought he could reach it. He ended up right up against it, with little ability to do anything than punch something out semi-toward the green. He hit it right where he aimed, and just didn't realize (I think) that he could reach the fence (I had no such problems, being the short hitter off the tee that I am). A first-timer's mistake, perhaps.

Phil --

You'll be happy to know that the fence has been painted green -- it's still there, but less of an eyesore  ;)

Best, Andrew

Andrew Lewis

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #65 on: May 07, 2014, 11:41:53 AM »
Andrew,

How far is the carry over the bunker on 4?  It's been a few years for me (and I've lost some distance as I age), but I seem to remember a fairway wood that carries 230'ish would pretty safely carry the bunker over the middle-left portion and leave an approach inside 150. 

Hi Andrew -

From the back tee box, 230-ish or perhaps a little less sounds right for that carry.  And yes, it should leave around 150 coming in.

Best, Andrew

Matthew Sander

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #66 on: May 07, 2014, 11:47:51 AM »

Phil --

You'll be happy to know that the fence has been painted green -- it's still there, but less of an eyesore  ;)

Best, Andrew

Andrew,

While not an eyesore, it can be very loud (and helpful) when whacked from about 280. Not that I would know anything about that...

For me, the 4th green's perched nature and straight lines make it difficult to hit on the approach. I have found that with a midde or back hole location, a miss slightly short is not a bad spot. That back bunker is really no place to be.

I find that the 4th is one of the few holes that absolutely requires a decision based upon club selection, line, and shape. Most of the driving holes will gladly accept a garden variety straight ball. Granted, there are certainly preferred angles of attack for approaches.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 11:49:37 AM by Matthew Sander »

Paul OConnor

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #67 on: May 07, 2014, 01:43:03 PM »
Isn't #4 really just a bad hole? 

Sure it can be fun, and I do like the bunkers around the green, but the first half of this hole is really not very good.  I don't like the tee very much, the wall is really close if the ball goes at all right, the whole left side of the hole is a jungle, the fairway bunkering seems awkward, and I always feel like the guys on the third tee are in the hot zone from a "this drive is gotta hook" swing.

I really enjoy Beverly, but I think we should dispense with all the attempts to lipstick this pig, not a good hole.  IMO.

Let's go to 5, which is a great hole.

K. Krahenbuhl

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #68 on: May 07, 2014, 01:59:27 PM »
It would be great to see evidence of disease in the big locust on the inside of the dogleg in front of the fairway bunker. It stops balls going in the sand and it shrinks the balls of players contemplating the power drive cutting off the dogleg and leaving a flop shot into the green. The margin of error owing to the angle, narrowness of fairway and OB on the right is the great counterbalance, leading to a perfect risk/reward opportunity. This becomes more appealing if that tree is turned into firewood.

Agreed.  I sneaked one over the tree last time out and was just off the front edge.  I've also cracked the tree and had it come straight down.  Would never try that play in a tournament.  It would be long iron/hybrid off the tee and short iron in.  Like Paul said definitely not one of the courses shining moments.  The following hole on the other hand may be one of the best.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 02:17:17 PM by K. Krahenbuhl »

Phil McDade

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #69 on: May 07, 2014, 04:52:36 PM »
Isn't #4 really just a bad hole?  

Sure it can be fun, and I do like the bunkers around the green, but the first half of this hole is really not very good.  I don't like the tee very much, the wall is really close if the ball goes at all right, the whole left side of the hole is a jungle, the fairway bunkering seems awkward, and I always feel like the guys on the third tee are in the hot zone from a "this drive is gotta hook" swing.

I really enjoy Beverly, but I think we should dispense with all the attempts to lipstick this pig, not a good hole.  IMO.

Let's go to 5, which is a great hole.

Paul:

I don't think it's a bad hole so much as an incongruous one. If you're willing to simply aim for the middle of the fairway at the turn with a club that puts the ball about 230-250 yards out there, that's a really terrific approach shot you're left with. I didn't think the OB right was any more troublesome (less so, in some cases) than holes yet to be played (11, 13). The stuff you mention -- jungle left, bunker at the corner, OB right -- shouldn't come into play (or doesn't have to) with a club off the tee that the player is able to hit to a decently wide fairway not that far away.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 05:01:34 PM by Phil McDade »

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #70 on: May 07, 2014, 05:03:42 PM »
Even as someone who plays a draw (pull?), I'm not a fan of the 4th.  For the length of the approach for most players, the raised green is a small target, and is well guarded.  I have to think that many older members play this as a three shotter, as the green isn't really receptive to a long running shot.  Even for the bombers, there's a fine line between making the carry and running through the fairway.  Does this make it a bad hole?  Awkward, maybe, but not necessarily something you'd have to blow up.

I could see moving the tee 30 or 40 yards to the North, making it easier for most players to get around the corner and to carry the bunker.  For the longer guys, they'd be incrementally closer to the green, and might even have a harder time with a 3-quarter wedge as opposed to a full 100+ yard shot.  You still have some issues with the OB fence, but the angle would be such that the line would be closer to parellel to the angle of attack, as opposed to the more perpendicular nature now.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

John McCarthy

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #71 on: May 07, 2014, 06:41:03 PM »
As luck would have it I played my first real round at Beverly today. 

It has never been a light under a basket type of place but I see why now.  The bunkering and green complexes may be the best I ever played.  The staff was low key and right on the mark.  Especially considering this past winter the conditioning was first rate - especially the bunker sand. 

As for my game....unforgettable,  especially on the front nine.  I played that bad.  But with some Antihero swing lubricant between nines things got better.  A fun part was holing out from the front right bunker to a back left location On the Hole of Champions (13? ).  Flew the ball past the pin and landed soft, then turned to rake the trap.  Halfway through my buddy started yelling and I looked up in time to see the ball rattle in!  There is a big mound behind the pin I never saw.

Downside?  Almost 2 hour drive back to Irving Park.   I bet I would get home quicker from Blue Mound.

The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Ken Fry

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #72 on: May 07, 2014, 10:38:11 PM »
Andrew,

I'm just catching up on this thread.

Ironic I catch you on hole #4.  I think when we played last summer my comment after #4 was it's a hole you need to see all the way through to feel somewhat comfortable on the tee.  For a first time visitor, that tee shot is VERY uncomfortable.  As a guest, the last thing you want to do is fly the fence, embarrass yourself and your host and engage one of the locals driving by.  Depth perception on that tee is a challenge.

By the way, speaking of the staff and traditions of Beverly.  What the hell was in that drink?  The ingredients must be a state secret!

Great job so far.  Looking forward to reading more!

Ken

Andrew Lewis

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #73 on: May 08, 2014, 09:25:24 AM »
I could see moving the tee 30 or 40 yards to the North, making it easier for most players to get around the corner and to carry the bunker.  For the longer guys, they'd be incrementally closer to the green, and might even have a harder time with a 3-quarter wedge as opposed to a full 100+ yard shot.  You still have some issues with the OB fence, but the angle would be such that the line would be closer to parellel to the angle of attack, as opposed to the more perpendicular nature now.

Sven -

It's an interesting thought, and I agree that the increased playability for the shorter hitter and added temptation for the longer hitter would be appealing.

However, I disagree with your view that the OB fence would be less of an issue.  Moving the tees forward and creating a slightly more perpendicular angle would reduce the "as the crow flies" distance to the 300-330 yards range, meaning more blasted drivers, more high blocks and more balls on 83rd St.

I continue to like the idea of extending the bunker on an angle into the fairway, after the large tree meets either its natural or Lavin-induced demise.  Continued challenge for the longer hitter, but not much added nuisance for the shorter hitter.

Best, Andrew

Andrew Lewis

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #74 on: May 08, 2014, 09:29:14 AM »
By the way, speaking of the staff and traditions of Beverly.  What the hell was in that drink?  The ingredients must be a state secret!

Ken -

Glad to see you posting on this thread!  I know you had strong initial reactions when we played and look forward to your thoughts.

I believe the drink in question was Ray-Ray or McFloody; probably the former.  I'm not at liberty to divulge a Ray-Ray's contents in such a public forum -- you'll have to inquire when you get up again this season  :)

Cheers, Andrew

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