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David_Tepper

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« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 12:01:28 PM by David_Tepper »

Ronald Montesano

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Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2014, 12:08:20 PM »
I'm guessing Mr. Whitten means us when he writes:

"Some present-day golf architecture fans might scoff at the Trent Jones legacy, but without it, their heroes, from Pete Dye and Jack Nicklaus to Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw, Tom Doak and Gil Hanse, would probably not be in the profession. Trent made it an important and lucrative business in the first place. Indeed, Hansen subtitled his book, Robert Trent Jones and The Making of Modern Golf."

Quite the honor, GCADG!
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2014, 01:38:30 PM »
Finished it last week.  It kind of reads like golf's version of Robert Caro's The Power Broker, about the life of Robert Moses. 
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2014, 03:02:07 PM »
David:

Did you find the book interesting?  Did you learn much?

Joey Chase

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2014, 03:05:39 PM »


Quite the honor, GCADG!

I'm guessing Mr. Whitten could care less about "us".  I look forward to reading this book.  While I was working for Roger Rulewich, he gave me many different perspectives and insights on Mr. Jones that told me both that he was a great lover of golf and the ultimate salesman.  Maybe he had a different idea as to what made a golf course great as to the greater group think that exists here, but he did love the game and worked very hard to help expand it globally.

Peter Pallotta

Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2014, 03:34:53 PM »
Interesting - first, "Robert Trent Jones made golf course design into a genuine profession"; next, he's at the forefront of a new phenomenon, i.e. tell-all biographies about the lives of professional designers. Our modern day architects have a lot to thank him for... :)

Peter


Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2014, 03:37:35 PM »
If tell alls on designers will be the trend, I guess I am glad I am not that famous.....and really, I don't have much to hide.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2014, 04:29:10 PM »


Quite the honor, GCADG!

I'm guessing Mr. Whitten could care less about "us".  I look forward to reading this book.  While I was working for Roger Rulewich, he gave me many different perspectives and insights on Mr. Jones that told me both that he was a great lover of golf and the ultimate salesman.  Maybe he had a different idea as to what made a golf course great as to the greater group think that exists here, but he did love the game and worked very hard to help expand it globally.

Joey:

After meeting Mr. Jones many years ago, I remember telling my mom that there were only two similarities between him and Pete Dye:  they both loved golf, and they were both master salesmen, though with very different approaches to the latter.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2014, 04:39:15 PM »
It is nice to see a meaty book related to golf architecture published. 

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2014, 05:52:07 PM »
David:

Did you find the book interesting?  Did you learn much?

I found it moderately interesting but I learned a ton. It is first an American success story.  RTJ was an immigrant who came through Ellis Island as a five year old and before his career was over he was working for and with men like Juan Trippe, Laurence Rockefeller President Eisenhower and the King of Morocco (with whom he was briefly held prisoner during a coup attempt) and was the preeminent practitioner in a field he almost single-handedly professionalized.  If he had a genius it was in his ability to realize his lofty ambitions.

There is a lot of information about how his various projects came to be, who were the owners and how Jones was hired but less information on the designs themselves.  It was interesting to me how virtually all the course owners and members would defer to Jones on basically all decisions.  It was in that way that he most reminded me of Robert Moses.  Preserving the courses he was hired to renovate took a distant second to Jones' ideas on making the courses "modern and demanding"  and it seems that RTJ didn't spend much time thinking about original design intent.  Like the NYC neighborhoods that were in the way of Robert Moses' highways, if some of Maxwell's greens at Southern Hills were too severe for modern green speeds or Ross' holes at Oak Hill couldn't defend par against the best golfers in the world for 4 days each decade then they had to go.

There family stuff was interesting but not particularly compelling.  Jones might have been a great salesman but he was a pretty poor businessman and it was his wife who was really responsible for building and running his business.  As his wife aged and then passed away the family kind of came apart.  It basically boiled down to RTJ and RTJII vs. Rees and RTJ's wife and it was never really settled in RTJ's lifetime. 


« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 05:58:05 PM by David Kelly »
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2014, 06:23:17 PM »
David:

Did you find the book interesting?  Did you learn much?

I found it moderately interesting but I learned a ton. It is first an American success story.  RTJ was an immigrant who came through Ellis Island as a five year old and before his career was over he was working for and with men like Juan Trippe, Laurence Rockefeller President Eisenhower and the King of Morocco (with whom he was briefly held prisoner during a coup attempt) and was the preeminent practitioner in a field he almost single-handedly professionalized.  If he had a genius it was in his ability to realize his lofty ambitions.

There is a lot of information about how his various projects came to be, who were the owners and how Jones was hired but less information on the designs themselves.  It was interesting to me how virtually all the course owners and members would defer to Jones on basically all decisions.  It was in that way that he most reminded me of Robert Moses.  Preserving the courses he was hired to renovate took a distant second to Jones' ideas on making the courses "modern and demanding"  and it seems that RTJ didn't spend much time thinking about original design intent.  Like the NYC neighborhoods that were in the way of Robert Moses' highways, if some of Maxwell's greens at Southern Hills were too severe for modern green speeds or Ross' holes at Oak Hill couldn't defend par against the best golfers in the world for 4 days each decade then they had to go.

There family stuff was interesting but not particularly compelling.  Jones might have been a great salesman but he was a pretty poor businessman and it was his wife who was really responsible for building and running his business.  As his wife aged and then passed away the family kind of came apart.  It basically boiled down to RTJ and RTJII vs. Rees and RTJ's wife and it was never really settled in RTJ's lifetime. 

If the last part is true, then that's three things Mr. Dye and Mr. Jones had in common -- strong women who helped run their businesses.

I had dinner with Mr. and Mrs. Jones in 1983 or 84, a couple of years before she passed away.  She certainly didn't seem much like Mrs. Dye, at least not the golf background part, but she was obviously a devoted spouse and fully engaged with her husband's career.

Your notes made me think how different it is in our day and age.  My generation would never expect our spouses to be so involved in our careers, but that is one thing that some of the older generation had to their advantage [an advantage that Hogan and Nicklaus had over Tiger Woods, as well].  Also, it seems that much of the family stuff must be based on personal correspondence, and the odd part about the "information age" is that without a subpoena for emails, you probably won't find much personal correspondence for generations going forward.

I do find it odd that a career golf course architect gets the full celebrity treatment, including invasion of privacy -- I guess it goes with the territory of fame now, but I'm not sure where one crosses the magic line in a business like ours.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2014, 06:32:07 PM »
Wonder if they found a copy of his very encouraging letter to 12 year old me........I would love to get it back!

I lost my copy in one office move or another, or one Xmas office cleaning or another, probably with an associate not understanding the memories he might have been throwing away.

While it is highly unlikely that anyone would want to write a book about me, the fact that RTJ did save all his papers (or most) and they are archived is a neat historic find.  As TD says, I wonder how much of our digital correspondence will be saved going forward?  The good news is, digital plans would in theory be more likely to be kept, since they take up such little space on CD's and even less in "the cloud."
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2014, 06:55:30 PM »
Jeff B. -

As far as I know (which isn't very far at all), Cornell U. has made very little progress in archiving the trove of RTJ material that landed on their doorstep. It is certainly possible your letter to him and his letter to you are there waiting to be found.

Should you ever find yourself passing thru Ithaca, NY (centrally located in the middle of nowhere ;)), you should stop in and take a look.

DT 

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2014, 07:09:32 PM »
If the last part is true, then that's three things Mr. Dye and Mr. Jones had in common -- strong women who helped run their businesses.

I had dinner with Mr. and Mrs. Jones in 1983 or 84, a couple of years before she passed away.  She certainly didn't seem much like Mrs. Dye, at least not the golf background part, but she was obviously a devoted spouse and fully engaged with her husband's career.

From the Bancroft Library, I've seen a picture and short description from the Los Angeles Herald of William and Ada Watson, where the picture is captioned and Mrs. Watson described as "An Executive Wife"...running the "William Watson, Golf Accessories" business, and handling supplies for her husband's architecture business...visiting sites and going out with him to watch construction.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2014, 07:29:27 PM »
I intend to read the book, but I'm not sure I accept the premise put forth in the author's Q and A from the website:

Q. Of all the golf course architects, why did you choose to focus your attention on Robert Trent Jones, Sr.?

A. No golf architect is more historically significant than Robert Trent Jones, Sr.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2014, 07:39:20 PM »
As far as I know (which isn't very far at all), Cornell U. has made very little progress in archiving the trove of RTJ material that landed on their doorstep.

There is a long section at the end of the book where the author discusses his sources, how he gained access to the RTJ material at Cornell and how he went through it and how both RTJII and Rees helped him and cooperated with him. 
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2014, 08:26:42 PM »
It is definitely not a picture book, so it will require some considerable attention, though unfortunately it's only 1/4 the length of "The Power Broker." A very fine piece of research with a lot of fascinating inside stuff on the business side of Jones, Inc., including the stormy relationship between Rees and Bobby Jr. and why it was founded in real financial and professional differences. It is a very well told story.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 09:06:08 PM by Brad Klein »

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2014, 08:34:03 PM »
I do find it odd that a career golf course architect gets the full celebrity treatment, including invasion of privacy -- I guess it goes with the territory of fame now, but I'm not sure where one crosses the magic line in a business like ours.

I don't think it is an invasion of privacy, after all he gave all of his business records (over 400 cubic ft. I think) and much of his personal correspondence to a research university. 

Jones' family dynamic was different in that all four members of his family were engaged in the same business and it seems that most of the conflicts within the family arose from business conflicts.  Ione Jones left all her tangible property to her husband and upon his death to Rees.  Nothing went to RTJII.  She gave the family home to Rees as well as all the shares and interests in the various Jones companies. 

Jones sets up a score of different companies in which to do business and even with his wife organizing it the best she could RTJ was nowhere near as well off at the end of his career as people would have suspected.  He had a lot of failed deals when trying to develop courses with his own money on the line.  He lost a lot of money on the Vidauban course  in  France and despite being in on the land deal for the Robert Trent Jones Golf Club in Virginia ended up not making any money on the project including having his design fee used to pay debts incurred on the project.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 08:43:21 PM by David Kelly »
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Bryan Icenhower

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2014, 08:50:02 PM »
I intend to read the book, but I'm not sure I accept the premise put forth in the author's Q and A from the website:

Q. Of all the golf course architects, why did you choose to focus your attention on Robert Trent Jones, Sr.?

A. No golf architect is more historically significant than Robert Trent Jones, Sr.

This author is (was?) a professor at Auburn, and the RTJ Golf Trail is a big deal in those parts.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2014, 09:08:33 PM »
To paraphrase 19th century California explorer (and subsequent presidential candidate) John C. Fremont, "only in America is it possible to arrive in this country penniless and end up owing $20m."

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2014, 10:24:42 PM »
I intend to read the book, but I'm not sure I accept the premise put forth in the author's Q and A from the website:

Q. Of all the golf course architects, why did you choose to focus your attention on Robert Trent Jones, Sr.?

A. No golf architect is more historically significant than Robert Trent Jones, Sr.

This author is (was?) a professor at Auburn, and the RTJ Golf Trail is a big deal in those parts.

I'm sure the RTJ Trail doesn't enter into it for Hansen.  The entirety of the mentions of the RTJ Trail take up pages 414-423 in the book and as the author points out Jones had virtually nothing to do with the designs. 
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Bryan Icenhower

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Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2014, 10:30:19 PM »
I obviously have no idea if the Trail played a part. But I can tell you that many golfers in the region would name RTJ as the first golf course architect in an unaided survey.

Mike_Young

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Re: The New Robert Trent Jones Biography......
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2014, 11:01:58 PM »
Interesting - first, "Robert Trent Jones made golf course design into a genuine profession";  :)

Peter


Peter,
That did stand out.  How often is a craft turned into a profession?  My wife's family ( father some and uncle his entire working career) worked for RTJ's construction arm, Florida Golf.  So much BS was thrown around pertaining to golf design that we are still not over it..and it has cost golf dearly.  For years "professional" golf architects would not build their projects.  they had their other company do it for them ;D ;D
BTW, the author is coming to the Dixie Cup this year and will do a question and answer one evening.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

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