[Brett Wiesley]

Jason, agreed really deep bunkers are a disproportionate hazard for ladies and likely some elderly.  As mentioned by others, much of this is a practice issue.  My wife steers around ALL bunkers, and also doesn't practice out of them either.  Experience is everything.

I personally find the biggest issue with deep bunker playability is the grounds crew maintenance practice.  Clubs that rake sand up to the upslopes provide for more plugged balls.  I think the best are firm upslopes on the bunkers, and balls funnel to the base.  The firmness may also allow a poorly struck/thin bunker shot to at least bounce out over the lip.

[Patrick_Mucci]

For my game I find really deep bunkers to be very interesting hazards.   If they are fairway bunkers, they provide a fearsome hazard and, a continuim of interesting recovery shots ranging from a pitch out backwards all the way to an attempt to hit the green.  Greenside - they up the stakes for an aggressive iron shot while providing an opportunity for recovery with an excellent bunker shot.

However - I have watched many women in such bunkers and, unless they are very good players, they have absolutely no chance of getting out of them.  

Should a designer ignore this issue?  Do the advantages outweigh this disadvantage?  Does the conclusion vary depending on the course?  Can a course be all things to all people?  

Should it attempt to be all things to all people?

If you're implying "dumbing it down to the lowest common denominator"  NO

Nope -  I am not.  I am raising the question of whether the advantages of deep bunkers offset the disadvantages.  
I do not think the answer to that question is a clear answer.  

The biggest advantage of deep green side bunkers is that they look cool or,

Then you don't understand their inherent function, end of story.

as Joel's picture shows, required by the topography.

That's also not true.
GCGC is relatively flat,  yet it has very deep, steep bunkers, requiring ladders to enter and exit.

Other than that, I do not see much benefit to them.

That's apparent  

I disagree with any suggestion that they are significantly more difficult to play from than shallow green side bunkers for the competent bunker player.

Again, then you don't understand their inherent value.
If you think the bunker on the 18th green at GCGC are not significantly more difficult to play from, then shallow green side bunkers, for the competent player, then I think you have to be deemed "ignorant" on the subject.

Try getting your ball close to the hole from the left side bunker on # 18 at GCGC.
You'll be lucky to get it out of the bunker, and, I'm talkling about scratch golfers, not hackers.

Again, you've probably never played really deep, really steep bunkers, greenside or fairway.

If you get the right thump, it really does not make a significant difference other than when you are short sided.

Jason, do you know how foolish you sound ?

If you want bunkers to be fearsome hazards, just add some sand, or remove some, or use beach sand, stop watering them so they firm up, or design them so the player faces a bunch of sidehill and downhill lies.

Yikes, stop typing, you're detracting from the total sum of human knowledge on this subject.

Downhill lies in bunkers ?
So, let me ask you, where is the water going to go when it rains ?
Where is your ball going to go when it enters that bunker.
Assuming of course that "gravity" remains operational.  

Such bunkers will give good players more fits than the manicured deep ones we see on many courses today.  

Stop typing

Some of the posts on this thread seem to reject or dismiss the idea that some bunkers are so deep that they will result in an X for a significant portion of the female playing public.  

Have you ever heard of the Devil's Asshole on the 10th at Pine Valley ?
Do you think that a few X's have been taken there ?
Should that bunker be removed according to your standards ?

I have had many experiences of seeing someone go into a bunker and knowing they will never get out.

Then that bunker is incredibly relevant in the play of that hole and is to be avoided at all costs.

Perhaps that is ok if it inspires improved play.  From what I have seen it is more likely to inspire one to pick up the ball and throw it.

Shouldn't it inspire a golfer to avoid that bunker at all costs ?

NO WHINING

[Jason Topp]

For my game I find really deep bunkers to be very interesting hazards.   If they are fairway bunkers, they provide a fearsome hazard and, a continuim of interesting recovery shots ranging from a pitch out backwards all the way to an attempt to hit the green.  Greenside - they up the stakes for an aggressive iron shot while providing an opportunity for recovery with an excellent bunker shot.

However - I have watched many women in such bunkers and, unless they are very good players, they have absolutely no chance of getting out of them.  

Should a designer ignore this issue?  Do the advantages outweigh this disadvantage?  Does the conclusion vary depending on the course?  Can a course be all things to all people?  

Should it attempt to be all things to all people?

If you're implying "dumbing it down to the lowest common denominator"  NO

Nope -  I am not.  I am raising the question of whether the advantages of deep bunkers offset the disadvantages.  
I do not think the answer to that question is a clear answer.  

The biggest advantage of deep green side bunkers is that they look cool or,

Then you don't understand their inherent function, end of story.

as Joel's picture shows, required by the topography.

That's also not true.
GCGC is relatively flat,  yet it has very deep, steep bunkers, requiring ladders to enter and exit.

Other than that, I do not see much benefit to them.

That's apparent  

I disagree with any suggestion that they are significantly more difficult to play from than shallow green side bunkers for the competent bunker player.

Again, then you don't understand their inherent value.
If you think the bunker on the 18th green at GCGC are not significantly more difficult to play from, then shallow green side bunkers, for the competent player, then I think you have to be deemed "ignorant" on the subject.

Try getting your ball close to the hole from the left side bunker on # 18 at GCGC.
You'll be lucky to get it out of the bunker, and, I'm talkling about scratch golfers, not hackers.

Again, you've probably never played really deep, really steep bunkers, greenside or fairway.

If you get the right thump, it really does not make a significant difference other than when you are short sided.

Jason, do you know how foolish you sound ?

If you want bunkers to be fearsome hazards, just add some sand, or remove some, or use beach sand, stop watering them so they firm up, or design them so the player faces a bunch of sidehill and downhill lies.

Yikes, stop typing, you're detracting from the total sum of human knowledge on this subject.

Downhill lies in bunkers ?
So, let me ask you, where is the water going to go when it rains ?
Where is your ball going to go when it enters that bunker.
Assuming of course that "gravity" remains operational.  

Such bunkers will give good players more fits than the manicured deep ones we see on many courses today.  

Stop typing

Some of the posts on this thread seem to reject or dismiss the idea that some bunkers are so deep that they will result in an X for a significant portion of the female playing public.  

Have you ever heard of the Devil's Asshole on the 10th at Pine Valley ?
Do you think that a few X's have been taken there ?
Should that bunker be removed according to your standards ?

I have had many experiences of seeing someone go into a bunker and knowing they will never get out.

Then that bunker is incredibly relevant in the play of that hole and is to be avoided at all costs.

Perhaps that is ok if it inspires improved play.  From what I have seen it is more likely to inspire one to pick up the ball and throw it.

Shouldn't it inspire a golfer to avoid that bunker at all costs ?

NO WHINING

Patrick - I need a little time to simmer down on this one.  [edit - I need to simmer down more]

[Jason Topp]

"Downhill lies in bunkers ?
So, let me ask you, where is the water going to go when it rains ?
Where is your ball going to go when it enters that bunker.
Assuming of course that "gravity" remains operational."

I guess I cannot leave this one alone.  Are you really saying downhill lies do not exist in bunkers?  Are you claiming that bunkers do not drain, either through a drain tile or naturally depending on the soil.  If your statement had any validity pot bunkers would not exist, gathering bunkers that you have lauded in the past would not exist and the world would be flat.

And I am "ignorant"?

[cary lichtenstein]

I love really deep bunkers

The Ritz in Jupiter when I was a member had great big  deep bunkers. JAck  Nicklaus  dimmed them down so my dismay

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Downhill lies in bunkers ?
So, let me ask you, where is the water going to go when it rains ?
Where is your ball going to go when it enters that bunker.
Assuming of course that "gravity" remains operational."

I guess I cannot leave this one alone. 

Are you really saying downhill lies do not exist in bunkers? 

To answer one of the dumbest questions I've been asked:
1.    Not in flat bottomed bunkers.
2.    Not in upsloped bunkers

That you don't understand how a bunker would have to be configured in order to produce a downhill lie for every ball that enters it is beyond belief.

Are you claiming that bunkers do not drain, either through a drain tile or naturally depending on the soil. 

The questions get dumber.
Have you ever seen standing water in a bunker ?
Did you ever ask yourself how it got there ?

Did you ever consider where the low point would be in a bunker that can only produce downhill lies for every ball that enters it ?
Did you ever consider which portion of the bunker would accumulate water first ?
Do you think before asking dumb questions or do they just come naturally to you ?

If your statement had any validity pot bunkers would not exist, gathering bunkers that you have lauded in the past would not exist and the world would be flat.

Unfortunately,It's to late to edit your reply.
Next time I'd suggest proof reading and thinking before you hit the reply button. 

And I am "ignorant"?

Beyond belief !

[Jason Topp]

Patrick -

Do you honestly believe I was suggesting a bunker that only produces downhill lies?  I cannot even imagine what that would look like. 

[Sean_A]

Patrick -

Do you honestly believe I was suggesting a bunker that only produces downhill lies?  I cannot even imagine what that would look like. 

I spose its a bit like trying to imagine how Mucci's brain works 

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick -

Do you honestly believe I was suggesting a bunker that only produces downhill lies? 

Here's what you stated in your reply # 22.
I can only go by what you type

design them so the player faces a bunch of sidehill and downhill lies.

That's what you stated, am I not to take you at your word from now on ?

I cannot even imagine what that would look like. 

I can, a bunker that's sloped toward the green instead of away from it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick -

Do you honestly believe I was suggesting a bunker that only produces downhill lies?  I cannot even imagine what that would look like. 

I spose its a bit like trying to imagine how Mucci's brain works 

In mysterious ways, ways beyond your comprehension.

Did you not take Jason at his word when he typed:

design them so the player faces a bunch of sidehill and downhill lies.

[Joe Hancock]

Earlier today we had to watch an (unwarranted and unjustified)access train-wreck, now we get to see how morons can't differentiate between "a bunch" and "all".

[Sean_A]

In mysterious ways, ways beyond your comprehension.  You got that right brother.  

Did you not take Jason at his word when he typed: design them so the player faces a bunch of sidehill and downhill lies.  Of course I did, only I interpreted "a bunch" in a more sensible manner than you did - how Jason intended  

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

In mysterious ways, ways beyond your comprehension.  You got that right brother.  

Did you not take Jason at his word when he typed: design them so the player faces a bunch of sidehill and downhill lies.  Of course I did, only I interpreted "a bunch" in a more sensible manner than you did - how Jason intended  

Good,

Then you can tell us how you'd configure and build bunkers that provide sidehill (not uphill, but, sidehill) lies and bunkers that produce downhill lies to the balls that enter them.

Would you also quantify the term, "a bunch" for us ?

[Sean_A]

Good, Then you can tell us how you'd configure and build bunkers that provide sidehill (not uphill, but, sidehill) lies and bunkers that produce downhill lies to the balls that enter them.  I don't build or design courses.  I spose, we can always say a bunker shot is uphill if we don't worry about which direction we intend to hit.  Same for sidehill lies 

Would you also quantify the term, "a bunch" for us ?  Think of grapes and you are getting close.  

Ciao

[Joe Hancock]

Pat,

Think of a general saucer shape to the bottom( not the outline or shape) of a bunker. If it functions in such a way that it doesn't funnel all balls to the bottom(a maintenance practice I detest), wouldn't it give you every conceivable shot.....uphill, downhill, sidehill? Seems like simple geometry to me.

Joe

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Think of a general saucer shape to the bottom( not the outline or shape) of a bunker.

Joe,

The moment you describe the bunker configuration as "saucer" like, you've predetermined the possible lies.

If it functions in such a way that it doesn't funnel all balls to the bottom(a maintenance practice I detest),
wouldn't it give you every conceivable shot.....uphill, downhill, sidehill?

Sure, but then it's not a flat bottomed bunker, it's a saucer bottomed bunker.

Seems like simple geometry to me.

It's a bunker where the perimeter sand is continuously sloped toward the surrounding turf and depending upon where your ball ends up, you'll have those lies.
You also have to consider the direction upon which the ball is entering the bunker and the probability of the lie created, based upon the momentum of the ball

[Patrick_Mucci]

Good, Then you can tell us how you'd configure and build bunkers that provide sidehill (not uphill, but, sidehill) lies and bunkers that produce downhill lies to the balls that enter them.  

I don't build or design courses.  I spose, we can always say a bunker shot is uphill if we don't worry about which direction we intend to hit. 
Same for sidehill lies 

Cute, but evasive.  And, not so on a flat bottomed bunker.

We know the intended direction, it's toward the hole/green

Would you also quantify the term, "a bunch" for us ?  

Think of grapes and you are getting close.  

Ahhh, more evasiveness.

Like 18-24 grapes in a bunch ?

[Jim_Coleman]

   I believe that deep bunkers are what often distinguish a great course from a pedestrian one.  I suppose a bunker could be so deep as to be preposterous, but even bunkers that border on preposterous usually allow for a sideways or backward escape.  When the devil's asshole was impossible to escape (which I believe it has been on occasion), it functioned as an unplayable lie and a re-tee - not the end of the world.  Deep bunkers are often the defining characteristic and most memorable architectural feature of a great course.  I can't think of a single great course with deep bunkers that wouldn't be "pedestianized" by having shallow bunkers instead.  And, I really can't think of a great course that has shallow bunkers, although I am sure there are a few.  (I know, Royal Ashdown Forest has no bunkers.  But it doesn't have shallow ones.)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

The 4th and 18th holes at Sand Hills would seem to reinforce your position.

Those are cavernous bunkers by any measure.

[Kevin_Reilly]

However - I have watched many women in such bunkers and, unless they are very good players, they have absolutely no chance of getting out of them. 

This is our youngest last year (he was 11).  He was about 4'9" 70 lbs in the video (assuming he had lead weights in his pockets).  As the guy with the camera told him, "don't try to do anything special" out of these bunkers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqJBoIgfvwU

[Sean_A]

Good, Then you can tell us how you'd configure and build bunkers that provide sidehill (not uphill, but, sidehill) lies and bunkers that produce downhill lies to the balls that enter them.  

I don't build or design courses.  I spose, we can always say a bunker shot is uphill if we don't worry about which direction we intend to hit.  
Same for sidehill lies  

Cute, but evasive.  And, not so on a flat bottomed bunker.

We know the intended direction, it's toward the hole/green

Would you also quantify the term, "a bunch" for us ?  

Think of grapes and you are getting close.  

Ahhh, more evasiveness.

Like 18-24 grapes in a bunch ?

Not evasive at all.  I really don't understand why you claim there can't be downhill lies in bunkers.  However, you keep mentioning flat bottom bunker. What is it, where is it and how prevalent is it?  I think my club and most links have flat bottom bunkers (or very near flat), but they are usually called pot bunkers or revetted bunkers.  Its not uncommon to get downhill lies at my club, though usually the design of the bunker leaves a flatish or uphill shot.  But this sort of bunker is quite rare in the world of golf.  

Ciao    

[Joe Hancock]

I wonder how different this discussion might be if it were of a match play context? I know we Americans have difficulty in thinking that way, but do deep bunkers affect match play in a way that differs from stroke play?


Joe

[Patrick_Mucci]

Not evasive at all. 

Yes you were, you avoided answering the questions, directly

I really don't understand why you claim there can't be downhill lies in bunkers. 

I never made that claim, that's your disingenuous representation.
Why don't you try rereading my replies to regain context and intent.

However, you keep mentioning flat bottom bunker. 

What is it,

It's a bunker with a flat floor

where is it and how prevalent is it?  

I thought you claimed you played a lot of golf ?
Are you telling us that you've never come across flat bottomed bunkers in your extensive travels ?

Where are they ?
GCGC and NGLA would be a good start.

How prevalent are they ?
Very, throughout the golf course

I think my club and most links have flat bottom bunkers (or very near flat), but they are usually called pot bunkers or revetted bunkers.  


So you'd call a bunker that's 45 yards by 10 yards a "pot" or "revetted" bunker ? ? ?

Its not uncommon to get downhill lies at my club, though usually the design of the bunker leaves a flatish or uphill shot.  

That would seem to be Joe's saucer or concave bunker

But this sort of bunker is quite rare in the world of golf.  

Not sure what sort of bunker is rare in the world of golf, could you clarify ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I wonder how different this discussion might be if it were of a match play context? I know we Americans have difficulty in thinking that way, but do deep bunkers affect match play in a way that differs from stroke play?

Joe,

I think that's a good point.

I believe that the trend away from match play to medal play has impacted bunker design and degree.

I believe bunkers would be more formidable if medal play wasn't so prevalent


Joe

[Scott_Burroughs]

Jason pop down to Deal on a Wednesday morning and you'll find plenty of 15 handicap ladies getting out of deep bunkers. You'll also notice the majority of them are better at avoiding bunkers in the first place!

15-handicap women are pretty decent players, certainly not your 'average' female player that Jason might be talking about.  In the U.S. at least, only 11.69% of women who keep handicaps have a handicap below 15 (as an index, not as their club handicap, which usually means their index is even lower.  The average handicap of women in the U.S. is 28.9 (men in 16.1).

Here is the dispersion of female handicaps in the U.S. (I'm guessing the UK isn't much different):

http://www.usga.org/Content.aspx?id=25510

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