[Mark Chaplin]

Patrick I doubt many people travel thousands of miles just to spend a few days playing Turnberry. Most would also play Troon, Prestwick and one/both of the Gailes. All of these are around 45 minutes away. From memory there is little luxury accommodation in the area so Turnberry is that option.

I'd say the hotel needs the golf course(s) more than the courses need the hotel.

[Steve Salmen]

Pat,

To answer your questions:

So you think people will fly thousands of miles to play the course and be content to be housed an hour from the course ?

Speaking for myself, I've golfed at Turnberry four times and been to one Open.  Each time I either stayed in Ayr or Prestwick.  If memory serves, the drive was 35-45 minutes.  I would happily drive extra to play a world class golf course.  There is also accommodation in Girvan and Maybole and they are closer.  Please keep in mind that there is also some other excellent golf in the area like Prestwick, Troon, Dundonald, Western Gailes, etc.  I would also guess that many hotel guests make the drive to these courses, some more than once.

It is entirely possible that I would have played Turnberry more times in the absence of the hotel because the green fee would be lower.

And, That there's sufficient capacity to house the same number of golfers who stay at the hotel ?

I don't know how many rooms are at the hotel but the rate starts at 295 GBP/night.  To me, that is 2-4 rounds of golf while paying 35-40GBP/night at a hotel/B&B plus gas.  To answer your question though, yes, I think there is enough housing capacity because Ayr is a decent sized town.

Cruden Bay is a world class course and I don't know anything about accommodations. When I played there I stayed in Aberdeen, which I think is a longer drive than from Ayr to Turnberry.  Maybe they have a hotel now, but I certainly was willing to drive out of my way to play there.  The golf course has been there a long time without a hotel.  Also, the accommodations at Dornoch were relatively sparse until recently and they had no trouble pulling 8000-10000 visitor rounds/year.

What business are you in ?

Property management.

Do you believe that the golf course would disappear in the absence of the hotel?   I do not.

Regards,

Steve

[David_Tepper]

"The same guys who bring us the Rolex Senior Open"

Jeff Warne -

While there is a tab for the "Senior Open Championship" on the Royal & Ancient's website, clicking that tab takes you straight thru to the European Tour's website.

Unlike the Open Championship (and the British Am, British Juniors, Walker Cup, etc.), I do not believe the Rolex Senior Open is organized/administered/sponsored by the R&A. It is a European Tour event.

DT  

[Mark_F]

Why all the fuss?

Surely there was a chance for all of the patriotic British business tycoons like Roman Abromovich, Sheikh Mansour, Stan Kroenke and John Henry to buy the place and keep it British, and they didn't. 

[Bryan Icenhower]

This appears to be a done deal ...

"I’m not going to touch a thing unless the Royal and Ancient ask for it or approve it," Trump said. "I have the greatest respect for the R&A and for (chief executive) Peter Dawson. I won’t do anything to the golf course at all without their full stamp of approval.”

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick I doubt many people travel thousands of miles just to spend a few days playing Turnberry. Most would also play Troon, Prestwick and one/both of the Gailes. All of these are around 45 minutes away.

From memory there is little luxury accommodation in the area so Turnberry is that option. [

Agreed, the hotel is THE place to stay if you're going to golf in the area

I'd say the hotel needs the golf course(s) more than the courses need the hotel.

They enjoy a symbiotic relationship.
Without the golf courses there's little need for the hotel and without the hotel there's no place for golfers to quarter themselves for extended stays/plays

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

To answer your questions:

So you think people will fly thousands of miles to play the course and be content to be housed an hour from the course ?

Speaking for myself, I've golfed at Turnberry four times and been to one Open.  Each time I either stayed in Ayr or Prestwick.  If memory serves, the drive was 35-45 minutes.  I would happily drive extra to play a world class golf course.  There is also accommodation in Girvan and Maybole and they are closer.  Please keep in mind that there is also some other excellent golf in the area like Prestwick, Troon, Dundonald, Western Gailes, etc.  I would also guess that many hotel guests make the drive to these courses, some more than once.

It is entirely possible that I would have played Turnberry more times in the absence of the hotel because the green fee would be lower.

And, That there's sufficient capacity to house the same number of golfers who stay at the hotel ?

Where ?
What quality ?
What Quantity ?

Did you read Mark Chaplin's reply ?

I don't know how many rooms are at the hotel but the rate starts at 295 GBP/night.  To me, that is 2-4 rounds of golf while paying 35-40GBP/night at a hotel/B&B plus gas.  To answer your question though, yes, I think there is enough housing capacity because Ayr is a decent sized town.


Mark Chaplin disagrees

Cruden Bay is a world class course and I don't know anything about accommodations. When I played there I stayed in Aberdeen, which I think is a longer drive than from Ayr to Turnberry.  Maybe they have a hotel now, but I certainly was willing to drive out of my way to play there.  The golf course has been there a long time without a hotel.  Also, the accommodations at Dornoch were relatively sparse until recently and they had no trouble pulling 8000-10000 visitor rounds/year.

Cruden Bay has nothing to do with Turnberry

What business are you in ?

Property management.

Do you believe that the golf course would disappear in the absence of the hotel?   I do not.

I think the amount of play would diminish.
There's a reason they built the hotel

[David Kelly]

Why all the fuss?

Surely there was a chance for all of the patriotic British business tycoons like Roman Abromovich, Sheikh Mansour, Stan Kroenke and John Henry to buy the place and keep it British, and they didn't. 

How do you re-tweet on here?

[Bryan Icenhower]

Why all the fuss?

Surely there was a chance for all of the patriotic British business tycoons like Roman Abromovich, Sheikh Mansour, Stan Kroenke and John Henry to buy the place and keep it British, and they didn't. 

How do you re-tweet on here?

Its the +1 button!

[Steve Salmen]

Pat,

You are a fantastic piece of work.  If you check the dialogue, you would see that I answered all your questions (clearly not to your satisfaction),  you also answered your question to me with three additional questions of your own.

And, That there's sufficient capacity to house the same number of golfers who stay at the hotel ? (Your question to me)

Where ?
What quality ?
What Quantity ? (your three additional questions)

I think you just like to argue for the sake of arguing.  I could not care less if Mark disagrees with me or anyone else for that matter.  Since neither of us is going to purchase the property to prove the other wrong, I bet I can get more votes here on GCA that the hotel needs the golf course more than the golf course needs the hotel.  If you think you have a different way of one upping me, I welcome the challenge.

Your answer to my question was so outgoing: I think the amount of play would diminish.  Why do you think so?  Because there would be no luxury accommodations on premises?  Guess what, there are a lot of people who don't need to spend 295 GBP per night that would happily play the course.  In fact, I'd venture to say that you yourself would play Turnberry in the absence of a hotel were in ranked in the top 100 and you happened to be on golf holiday in Ayrshire.  OK, maybe you would not, admit it one way or another.

No Cruden Bay is not in the discussion but it is a course people travel great distances to play and is a Scottish links course, not unlike Turnberry.  It is also somewhat remote.  Do you happen to have a better comparison?

I stand by my argument that the hotel need the golf course more than the golf course needs the hotel.  I think you and Donald Rumsfeld have a more symbiotic relationship than the course and the hotel. 

[Sean_A]

While the hotel is THE place to stay if playing Turnberry, there is no question the hotel needs the course more than the course needs the hotel.  Its rather dopey suggest otherwise.  Lots of people never step foot in the hotel and yet enjoy the course.  I have been twice and the hotel was a like a big empty cavern, yet the course was full.  In fact, the second time we went nobody wanted to stay in the hotel when it was an option costing no more than the lodges.  The biggest reason for this was folks can bring their own drink to the lodges rather than paying a 5er for a pint.   

Ayr is the obvious hub for golfers on tour in the area becasue its central to many courses and its only 13 miles from Turnberry.  There is a 100+ room Mercure Hotel in town and countless other options.  Malin Court is just down the road from Turnberry and I know it gets a ton of golfer business simply because it is far cheaper than Turnberry. 

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Come and play Deal and Sandwich and there is a lack of big hotels. Salutation is very smart large B&B in Sandwich but from £160 for a "private" bathroom and £195 for an en suite. There is a 5 star B&B in Deal charging from £70 for an en suite single mid week to £97 at the weekends for double with en suite. You can also get a bed in town for around £40 if you don't mind lower standards, there is plenty for the entire market.

I don't know any Brits who've stayed at Turnberry in high season unless on a corporate jolly. Same applies at Gleneagles and TOC Hotel for that matter. Chasing the $ and ¥ is great until exchange rates change drastically or there is a major incident, the overseas market then goes very quiet.

[Mark Pearce]

Muirfield, Carnoustie, Hoylake, Troon, Birkdale, Lytham and, as Chappers says, RSG all appear to survive without an attached luxury hotel.  Perhaps Pat can explain what is so unique about the economy of Turnberry.

[Niall C]

Just listened to a very interesting comment from Peter Dawson on the radio. After making polite noises about how reassuring it was that someone of Donald Trumps stature was willing to invest in golf, Turnberry would still be known as Turnberry irrespective of what any new owner called it and Turnberry would be the name that would be going on the claret jug next time the Open was played there.

Niall,

I feel your pain.

Cape Canaveral, Idlewild Airport and the Triboro Bridge will always be known to me by those names and not any subsequent monikers 

Niall

Patrick

Believe me, there is no pain. Balmedie will always be Balmedie and Turnberry will always be Turnberry. 

Niall

[Niall C]

I have to say that given the choice of lesser evils, that History may very well view Trump as a better steward of the game than Dawson.  Of course, that isn't saying much...

Jud

Possibly one of the dumbest posts I've ever read on here.

Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

Wildings in Maidens is the nicest place to stay in the Turnberry area. Small, friendly, but high quality place with a seriously good restaurant.

[Niall C]

I think folk tend to underestimate the amount of day trippers that play the courses without going anywhere near the hotel. That would include those that are members of the club, corporate members (the banks were huge users prior to the crunch) and other golfers from the west of Scotland and beyond. I would suggest very few of that lot would be paying the headline rate.

Of the foreign visitors, most if not all will be doing the grand tour of golf in Scotland meaning if it’s Monday it must be TOC, if it’s Tuesday it must be Dornoch, if it’s Wednesday it must be Turnberry etc. Given the logistics of travelling about the country and playing a different venue every day, I can understand why staying at Turnberry might not be the best bet when you can stay at the Lochgreen in Troon (better hotel) and also the Marine (probably similar in quality if not grandeur) and various other hotels in easier reach of other golfing destinations.

Assuming a fair proportion of these foreign visitors are American it may be that might be attracted to stay at the hotel rather than somewhere else given the Trump branding but then some may take the opposite view, I don’t know.

Niall

[Jud_T]

I have to say that given the choice of lesser evils, that History may very well view Trump as a better steward of the game than Dawson.  Of course, that isn't saying much...

Jud

Possibly one of the dumbest posts I've ever read on here.

Niall

Actually it pales in comparison to your blind defense of changing contours at The Old Course, at the behest of your boy Dawson.  Trump, tool that he may be, is already displaying more reverence for Turnberry than Dawson did for the most important course in the history of the game.  And we're not even discussing the incompetence shown on technology or the glacially slow movement on single sex Open venues, but I digress....

[Connor Dougherty]

"I’m not going to touch a thing unless the Royal and Ancient ask for it or approve it," Trump said. "I have the greatest respect for the R&A and for (chief executive) Peter Dawson. I won’t do anything to the golf course at all without their full stamp of approval.”

Ironically, this, not the purchase of the course by the Donald himself, is what scares me the most. Giving Dawson the baton could push Hawtree to make several changes to the course, and given that Trump has worked with Hawtree, I would imagine that he would have little objection to it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

You are a fantastic piece of work.  If you check the dialogue, you would see that I answered all your questions (clearly not to your satisfaction), 
Only you think you answered the questions satisfactory

you also answered your question to me with three additional questions of your own.

Wait, I think the method to my perceived madness will reveal itself shortly.

And, That there's sufficient capacity to house the same number of golfers who stay at the hotel ? (Your question to me)

Where ?
What quality ?
What Quantity ? (your three additional questions)

I think you just like to argue for the sake of arguing. 

Please try to footnote when you quote or steal someone else's remarks

I could not care less if Mark disagrees with me or anyone else for that matter. 

I see, so people who live in the UK, who are in the hospitality business, who are far more familiar with the area are to have their opinions ignored in deference to your opinion ?  ?  ?

Since neither of us is going to purchase the property to prove the other wrong, I bet I can get more votes here on GCA that the hotel needs the golf course more than the golf course needs the hotel.  If you think you have a different way of one upping me, I welcome the challenge.

You're too obtuse to understand the issue.
That wasn't Mark's point.
Why don't you try rereading what he wrote.

Your answer to my question was so outgoing: I think the amount of play would diminish.  Why do you think so?  Because there would be no luxury accommodations on premises?  Guess what, there are a lot of people who don't need to spend 295 GBP per night that would happily play the course.  In fact, I'd venture to say that you yourself would play Turnberry in the absence of a hotel were in ranked in the top 100 and you happened to be on golf holiday in Ayrshire.  OK, maybe you would not, admit it one way or another.

Once again, you fail to understand the issue.

If there was so much available, suitable, affordable housing nearby, why was there the need to spend a fortune to build a hotel ?
Did the words "demand" or "need" ever enter your mind.
Did it ever occur to you that there was a lack of quality, convenient housing in the area, contrary to your claim, and that's why they built the hotel ?

And, after the hotel was long operational, why would the owner spend 60,000,000 to build an addition to the facility ?

No Cruden Bay is not in the discussion but it is a course people travel great distances to play and is a Scottish links course, not unlike Turnberry.  It is also somewhat remote.  Do you happen to have a better comparison?

Comparisons are irrelevant.
Isn't there a complex with a hotel, developed by a railroad company, with several golf courses that people travel great distances to play ?

I stand by my argument that the hotel need the golf course more than the golf course needs the hotel. 

That's not the issue.   Try something new, like ........thinking.

I think you and Donald Rumsfeld have a more symbiotic relationship than the course and the hotel. 

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.........., you are a moron

[Howard Riefs]

Done deal.

http://scorecard.golf.com/2014/04/29/donald-trump-purchases-historic-turnberry-resort/

“’Trump Turnberry’ has a nice ring to it, doesn’t it?” said Trump. “We’ll make that decision fairly soon—in a couple of days.”

[BCowan]

''If there was so much available, suitable, affordable housing nearby, why was there the need to spend a fortune to build a hotel ?
Did the words "demand" or "need" ever enter your mind.
Did it ever occur to you that there was a lack of quality, convenient housing in the area, contrary to your claim, and that's why they built the hotel ?

And, after the hotel was long operational, why would the owner spend 60,000,000 to build an addition to the facility ?''

The owner must of been listening to yahoo's on this side of the pond that Luxury is the only way to go!  Demand now is another term for ''loose credit'', ''easy money''.   Obviously the owner can't tell a bubble from a piece of gum.  It is up for sale, so obviously the market deemed him wrong!  Have you ever stayed in a Hampton Inn, or is that slumming it?  If people visit the course for the hotel, I don't want to play behind them on the course, waiting on every shot!

[Niall C]

I have to say that given the choice of lesser evils, that History may very well view Trump as a better steward of the game than Dawson.  Of course, that isn't saying much...

Jud

Possibly one of the dumbest posts I've ever read on here.

Niall

Actually it pales in comparison to your blind defense of changing contours at The Old Course, at the behest of your boy Dawson.  Trump, tool that he may be, is already displaying more reverence for Turnberry than Dawson did for the most important course in the history of the game.  And we're not even discussing the incompetence shown on technology or the glacially slow movement on single sex Open venues, but I digress....

No blind defence. If you’ve actually read any of my posts on the TOC changes you will note that I wasn’t actually defending the specific changes that have been and are being made, and have made little comment on them one way or the other.

What I did was point out to the likes of you that Peter Dawson did not make the decision on the changes, they were made by a committee consisting of members of the Links Trust, the R&A and from memory local politicians. The R&A representation on that body was in the minority and I don’t even know for certain whether Dawson represented the R&A at those meetings. What I think we can readily suppose is that the changes were debated at the relevant R&A committee and the R&A view agreed with the R&A rep on the decision making body reflecting that view. As an aside, I also pointed out that the Old Course has continually evolved since first laid out and including throughout the 20th century and what is happening now might fairly be seen as part of that evolution.
  
For you to suggest therefore that Dawson is responsible for the changes belies your ignorance of the process and that is why I think you are wrong as you are with your comments above.
 
Many of the single sex clubs that you refer to are either partially responsible or directly responsible for the inception, running and hosting of the Open and did so when it was far from a money making venture. The revenue from the Open is now the most important source of funding for the R&A. If you take the time to read the R&A annual review you will note that it provides £5m a year to their Working for Golf programme which undertakes a range of golf education and development activities aimed at grassroots level amongst others and including provision of public access facilities. That’s the organisation Mr Dawson plays a part in running.

The clubs themselves no longer play a part in running the Open but many of them provide their courses for the championship. You describe them as single sex venues when it would be more accurate to say they are single sex clubs. I know of none that don’t welcome women as guests or visitors and many have happily hosted womens events including Royal Troon which recently hosted the Helen Holm Trophy as it does every year. I’d suggest their record for accessibility stacks up fairly well to many a high end country club.

Finally, you may wish to reflect that you are posting on a site that reveres the golden age of golf course architecture. Many of these revered golf course architects including Colt, MacKenzie and Fowler not only were members of the R&A but they took part in the discussions and decisions that decided against limiting the development of the ball amongst other innovations. Without them we would all still be playing with Haskells and many of the classic courses wouldn’t have developed into how we know them now.

Niall

*edited to remove insulting comments

[Paul Gray]

Why all the fuss?

Surely there was a chance for all of the patriotic British business tycoons like Roman Abromovich, Sheikh Mansour, Stan Kroenke and John Henry to buy the place and keep it British, and they didn't. 

I rather like this Mark but couldn't let it go unchecked.

This is not about xenophobia, it's about Trump.

It's a global market place and that's fine by me. I simply struggle to imagine a water fountain looking impressive when served up against the back drop of a stormy Atlantic Ocean.   

[Niall C]

"I’m not going to touch a thing unless the Royal and Ancient ask for it or approve it," Trump said. "I have the greatest respect for the R&A and for (chief executive) Peter Dawson. I won’t do anything to the golf course at all without their full stamp of approval.”

Ironically, this, not the purchase of the course by the Donald himself, is what scares me the most. Giving Dawson the baton could push Hawtree to make several changes to the course, and given that Trump has worked with Hawtree, I would imagine that he would have little objection to it.

Connor

I suspect that Trump would be willing to give the R&A a free hand within reason however what makes you think that the R&A would use Hawtree given they now tend to use Martin Ebert and it was MacKenzie & Ebert who made the changes at Turnberry for the 2009 Open. Also add in that Dawson will be retired shortly and that any changes will presumably be down to the championship committee of the R&A in any case, and assume your comments are just another gratutious attack on Dawson.

Niall

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