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Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
350 yard Par 4's
« on: April 22, 2014, 11:22:44 PM »
The last decade has yielded many interesting par fours of a semi-drivable nature.  Most new courses have one or two of them.

What seems to me to have diminished are holes in the 350 yard range from the back tees.  Regardless of the actual yardage of the hole, its nature is that the green cannot be driven, but nearly everyone can have a short-iron approach with a good tee shot using driver. 

Ideally such a hole offers a short pitch if one is willing to hit driver off the tee, but provides a layup option that carries the drawback of (1) being 150 yards or more and (2) being more difficult because the green is small or something about the green demands precision on the approach.

Last year, Greg Tallman identified the 14th as his favorite hole at Cabo del Sol Ocean.

http://www.cabodelsol.com/content/golf_ocean_courselayout14.html

The choice surprised me, but after playing it a number of times, I see much wisdom in Greg's viewpoint.  The green is pretty small with a stream nearby, thereby incenting the player to hit a driver or longer club to shorten the approach.  The tee ball with a driver is very tight, with a wash to the left and bunkers and a hillside to the right.  You can avoid most of that mess by leaving the tee ball short of the bunkers but you then face a demanding shot of 150 yards uphill with a bunch of trouble on the perimeter of the green. 

350 yard holes carry the advantage of being reachable by everyone in two shots and can be set up in such a way to pose a series of interesting decisions on the player. 

If I were a new architect seeking to create my own style, I might look for these type of holes.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2014, 11:37:34 PM »
Jason:

I agree that short par-4's are an important piece of great courses.

I think the emphasis on "drivable" par-4's in recent years has been promoted beyond reason.  For the great majority of golfers, none of these short par-4's are ever drivable, even the sub-300-yard ones I built in Australia.  Most golfers don't hit it 300 yards, and a lot of these holes were not really designed with that in mind ... but if a couple of yahoos with their Big Berthas get up there and knock a ball somewhere around the green, the hole is portrayed as "drivable" because that's the "in" thing now.  The 16th at Pacific Dunes, for example, was not meant to be drivable, and actually winding up on the green from the tee is a matter of luck, even for long hitters.

I do think the drive-and-pitch holes are getting unfairly pushed to the side as a result.  But I think there are several architects who place an emphasis on them, myself included.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2014, 11:43:29 PM »
One of the great things about older landlocked courses: some par 4s can't be lengthened.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2014, 11:48:46 PM »
One of the great things about older landlocked courses: some par 4s can't be lengthened.

Mike:

That's true, but by the same token there are a lot of 320-yard par-4's that could use a slightly longer back tee nowadays, to stop idiots from trying to drive them.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2014, 12:17:11 AM »
Or a few deep bunkers 20 yards short to discourage such behavior

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2014, 12:28:27 AM »
There's a good hole of this sort at a course NW of Phoenix called Trilogy at Vistancia.

It's #4, 364 from the back tees, 344 from the whites. You play to what is probably the widest fairway on the course, but there are some drawbacks to just bombing driver.

If you hit driver, there's a good chance you'll catch a small downslope in the fairway. Then your wedge approach is from a downhill lie. Or you can lay back a bit further and have a flat lie. But the fairway is a bit tighter ... and it's a downwind hole with a wide fairway, mentally it's just tough to not pull driver on that tee.

What really makes the hole is the green, which is sort of triangular with a sloping front portion, a higher shelf left that's perched above a bunker, and an even higher back right location guarded by a deep bunker right and a high bunker long left.

It's just a drive and pitch hole, but there are plenty of options and little things that make it interesting.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2014, 07:11:08 AM »
Tom Doak,

How heavily do you defend the short drive and pitch holes ?

Is a green at a 45 degree angle a reasonable defense ?
Does that make driving it far more difficult ?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2014, 07:51:46 AM »
One of the great things about older landlocked courses: some par 4s can't be lengthened.

Good example is the sixth at The Valley Club, about 310 from the can't go back tips.  It's a great little hole with a devilish green.  The flat bellies there have successfully lobbied to make the short par 5s, 1 and 10, par 4s on the "championship" card.  I'm sure they'd love to able to lengthen 6. 

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2014, 08:26:24 AM »
When we were working on Laval. We were very conscious of having multiple short fours just to get variety. I always admired Oakmont's interesting mixture of hole lengths and wanted that to play out at Laval. While we knew we were going to host a Canadian Open, we also decided from the outset to limit the yardage to approximately 7,100 and make sure we had mid length fours.

We have three between 350 and 375 at the full tournament length.
(one is made to be set up shorter if they want)

It allowed us some complicated choices from the tee and the opportunity to develop some very tough green contours (think crowns and fall away slopes rather than elephants). I think this architectural idea needs more latitude/lenience with yardage to work. At least in my opinion.


This conversation has helped me understand what I struggled with most on the Red at Streamsong. It was either very short or very long on the fours. I was clearly missing the middle length holes. Or felt I was in that wind and that day.
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Keith Grande

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2014, 08:44:54 AM »
Short Par 4's can provide many strategic options that aren't simply hit driver as far as possible.  Sometimes preferred landing areas could be 100 yards out, driver could put bogey or double bogey in play based on hazards in the landing zone.  There is a par 4 at my local course where, depending on wind conditions, pin placement, and confidence on that particular day, it could be 4 iron through driver. 

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2014, 08:56:13 AM »
I totally agree with what's been said so far.  350 yard par 4s are probably some of the most strategic (generally speaking) in golf.  I've found a lot of "drive-able" par 4s aren't so much strategic as they are bang driver as close to the green as possible.

Par 4s in the 340 - 360 offer far more options.  Short enough to make iron off the tee a viable play, but long enough to give hitting driver a significant advantage.  Although sometimes hitting too far is not good, as half pitches are difficult shots.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2014, 08:58:57 AM »
Tom Doak,

How heavily do you defend the short drive and pitch holes ?

Is a green at a 45 degree angle a reasonable defense ?
Does that make driving it far more difficult ?

Pat:

Certainly, a green at 45 degrees to the line of play will work as a defense; the 16th at Pacific Dunes has the angle you describe, plus a couple of very nasty hazards to boot.  But I have to admit that I rarely build such a green.  While the angle makes it difficult for anyone to drive the green, it opens up for the long hitter (unless he is very greedy) much more easily than for the short hitter.

The great thing about these holes is that it isn't always about defending the green ... you can get away with almost anything on holes of this length, because the player always has the option to lay back off the tee if they don't want to take on trouble with the tee shot.  The 2nd at Pacific Dunes is one of my favorites for that ... there are lots of different places you can try to hit your tee shot, and two or three places you'd better NOT hit it.


Kevin_D

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2014, 09:07:58 AM »
We have two such holes at Wykagyl.

#15 is ~340 yards from the tips.  From the whites, depending on where the tee is, is can be about 300 (though usually more like 310-320) so possibly reachable for the boomers, but not so for the vast majority of us (the green is elevated so very hard to roll a drive up).  The hole has the smallest green on the course, with a false front, so it requires an accurate approach.  There is plenty of room to the right, but trouble (rough and a creek) left...and yet seeing that green straight ahead seems to just such balls to the left side from the tee.

#17 is ~355 yards from the tips, starts slightly uphill, then sharply down and dogleg left, then back up slightly to an elevated green.  Unless you can draw your driver with great accuracy, you can't play a driver off the tee (right has hazards, rough and trees, left is dead), although if you can, you will end up with a flat lie and a 50-60 yard pitch.  Otherwise, you need to either try to leave your shot at the top of the hill for ~160-170 yards in, or hit it over the hill and leave yourself something between 70-120 yards, but with a fairly sharp downhill lie, and maybe a side hill one.  The green is pretty big, but has some of the toughest bunkers from which to get up and down on the course if you miss.

I think they're great holes.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 09:22:02 AM by Kevin_D »

Keith Grande

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2014, 09:19:30 AM »
Is the paucity of 350 yard holes a result of the quest for 7,000+ yard "championship" courses?  If you're trying to pump up the yardage, the par 4's need to be in the 425 average range to get to your "number".



Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2014, 09:33:11 AM »
One of my favorite holes at Kingsley is the 8th, which is 360 from the tips (349 from the member tees).  A true drive and pitch hole, the preferred approach is from the right side, but it's a pretty small target if you hit it past the big center fairway bunker.  Long and left is no bargain as you're approaching from the more difficult angle over a large bunker.  Even if you hit the perfect drive up the right side past the fairway bunker you're left with a very precise pitch to a wonderful green that repels shots from 3 sides.  You can use the hill in back as a backstop, but you better have your short game dialed in.  Holes like these are wonderful for all abilities, and for variety and flow in the round, but as Ian mentions they depend on very good, strategic greens.  As most things in golf, they function much better on F&F turf where a short approach which isn't executed precisely is punished by short grass as a hazard.

P. S.  See my quote below...
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 09:42:54 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2014, 09:34:41 AM »
I think one thing working against the proliferation of drive-and-pitch holes is that 99% of golfers are terrible at hitting pitch shots (e.g. 20-75 yards) and so if they play a hole where they hit driver and are left with a shot of that length, they're going to complain that the hole is too long to be drivable but too short to leave them a "full shot" without hitting less than driver. And asking an average golfer to voluntarily hit less than driver off a tee is pretty much heresy.

I'm not arguing against these holes, because they're great, but maybe it explains why we aren't seeing many more of them.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2014, 09:40:32 AM »
At our club we have seven par 4’s between 320 and 376 yards (total length from the tips just 6,800 yards, but can be stretched to 7,000).  They are the key holes to playing well.  Get out of position and you can inflate your score.   They are great equalizers for long hitters as they have to choose wisely.  The thing that I most admire about this length of holes is the many ways you can play them.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2014, 10:02:20 AM »
I like shortish par-4's, especially those with a bit of cunning about them, but players are getting longer these days and when there are players on the course, even in the same group, of multiple abilities, waiting for the green to clear so Mr Bomber can have a go at the green from the tee doesn't half effect pace of play, and not in a good way either.
atb

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2014, 10:23:17 AM »
I love these holes, particularly the ones with options off the tee as well as the approach.

My favorites are Ballyneal #7, and White Bear #14.

The 2 at Kingsley -  #8 and #13 - are very good and their green complexes demand good approach shots.

Didn't Ran say somewhere that there hasn't been a better built short 4 since Riviera #10.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2014, 10:52:19 AM »
Morgan,  #13 at Kingsley is only 292 from the back and, while uphill, is driveable for many big hitters.  So while it's a wonderful hole and does play as a drive and pitch for guys like me, I'm not sure it's really relevant to the discussion.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2014, 10:55:00 AM »
After 26 years I have been able to convince even a few members that the 13th at Shinnecock Hills is the best hole on the course.

350 yds par 4

Elevated tee, into a prevailing wind, 30 degree right bend to the hole, Stingray back green slanted left to right, large fairway bunker at about the 270 mark on the right side, plenty of room to the left. Seemingly 'amber waves of grain' framing the fairway and fairway bunker.

Brutal approach from the left side with many of the US Open contestants ending up in the right green side bunker due to the green cant and extra spin due to the wind. Or just dumping their pitch directly into it saving themselves the indignity of repairing the ball mark.

False front, tightly mowed chipping areas in back and back right. 'Elevated' bunker left side at apex of stingray hump.

Oh, and the Shinnecock clubhouse close within view during play of the entire hole and the best panoramic view of surrounding golf courses/clubhouses.

Pure Flynn genius
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 10:58:18 AM by Gene Greco »
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2014, 11:02:25 AM »
When thinking about this issue before starting this thread, I lumped Doak and Coore together as both abandoning this type of hole. 

However, based on checking the actual courses, it appears Doak features these holes more regularly than Coore/Crenshaw.

Streamsong Red – 0 (4 does not qualify to me. I lump it more in the driveable category, even though, as Tom notes above, most people have no chance at doing so)

Streamsong Blue – 2 (1, 6) (13 fits within the driveable category for me.  12 might fit the profile in the manner it played when I visited)

Bandon Trails – 0
Pacific Dunes - 2/3 (depending on how you classify 16)


David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2014, 11:07:46 AM »
#5 at Royal Dornoch is a great short par-4. The angled & well defended green really makes the 2nd shot a challenge.

Peter Pallotta

Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2014, 11:41:58 AM »
I have to say that this is one topic that I really don't understand, i.e. I don't understand the assumption that a short 4 (say 320-360 yards) is almost by definition more interesting than one of standard length, or that it almost automatically provides a much wider range of options/choices.

I must be missing something, because so many experienced golfers and top flight architects around here seem to think so. But to me: given than nothing in the world precludes an architect from finding/creating an interesting and challenging green on a hole of ANY length (any short/long Par 4, any Par 3 or Par 5), what sets the short 4 apart seems to be simply and solely the choice to hit less than driver off the tee.

Is that indeed it - is that the option most are praising? Because if it is, it doesn't seem to me all that interesting or difficult a decision -- and it's a decision made less and less interesting and difficult with each passing year, as technology has led to drivers (even the 10-15 year old driver I have) that are easier than ever to hit, and to golf balls that seem to keep driver shots as straight (or even straighter) than those hit by 3 woods or hybrids.

So, unless there's a centreline bunker right at the 250 yard marker, most of us will fire away with a driver (easy decision); and if there is such a centreline bunker 250 yards out, most of us will hit 3 wood or a hybrid (no choice at all). What's left then is basically an easier hole, which I'm certainly not against -- over the course of a round, and in terms of flow and feeling and pacing, it's good to have a mix of challenging and less challenging holes, including holes that an average golfer of average length might birdie as often as his more accomplished opponent. But then, let's look at short 4s in THOSE terms, i.e. (relatively) easier holes, rather than in terms of being strategically more interesting in and of themselves.  

But again, I must be missing something, because I find little 'automatic' appeal to a short 4.

Peter      
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 11:56:33 AM by PPallotta »

Brent Hutto

Re: 350 yard Par 4's
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2014, 11:49:39 AM »
Even if driver is the obvious play off the tee, there are different options at the green end that one can present when the player is hitting a 9-iron or wedge than if the player will be hitting a 5-iron or longer.

A green that's purposely NOT super-difficult for a long iron approach may well be sort of boring with a sand wedge in your hand. And a green that offers interest and challenge to the player wielding a pitching wedge might be ridiculously difficult for a play approaching with a 3-iron or 5-wood.

Then of course you can add in various features on the tee shot to possibly make other than driver a safe choice. But I have a soft spot for the idea of letting the player go ahead and have at with the driver to an open fairway but then face a difficult challenge on the short second shot. This sort of "short Par 4" offers Par 5-like design options at the green end without having to accommodate the strong player who will reach it in one less than regulation (assuming it's too far to be "drivable").

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