[BCowan]

It's all a matter of perspective. For 95% of the people who have ever played the game, the idea of learning "through caddying" would be a complete head-scratcher.

Why?  I had close friends that learned that way and my father did too.  Now many cart boys learn that way through having access from working at upscale pubic.  They first are attracted to the job for the tips, then they try it, they like it or they don't

Right. That's the 5%. Lot of people on this forum live in that world. Most golfers (the 95%) do not so they think it's all just something they saw on Caddyshack or that maybe happened back in the 60's before most of them were born.

   Have you ever caddied or worked in a bagroom/cart boy?  Whatever the percent is, I think golf is served well by having people who learn respect for the game and get free access to Golf.  Almost every private club in even small/big town had large caddie programs.  Just because a guy named Tiger made Golf cool, doesn't mean caddies/cart boys having access to free golf doesn't grow the game.  If your guess of 5% is right, I am sure many courses are in need of that 5%.  I have done those jobs at many courses, again have you Brent?  Any firsthand experience in thee Yard?

[Tim Martin]

It's all a matter of perspective. For 95% of the people who have ever played the game, the idea of learning "through caddying" would be a complete head-scratcher.

 Now many cart boys learn that way through having access from working at upscale pubic. 

Is upscale pubic waxed or 60's style?

[David Kelly]

Twenty20 gave cricket a boost and other sports seem intent on finding their own watered down version, but you either want to play golf or you don't.

Yes but with the exception of a few tweaked fielding rules the major difference between T20 cricket and test or one day is the length of the games.  The equivalent for golf would be just playing 9 holes. 

The 15 inch cup is an admission that a major part of your sport needs changing and shows that desperation is beginning to set in in the world of golf.

[DMoriarty]

Mike,  I agree that the idea would impact all aspects of the game, not just putting.   Strategy works from the hole back to the tee, and if you are starting off with a 15 inch hole, then some of the strategic options are going to play out differently throughout.  Just bashing it up there close and then chipping would seem to be a more viable option with a 15 inch cup.

The 15" cup is marketed to the occasional golfer

This might make sense for Taylor Made, so long as those occasional golfers regularly buy equipment, but I am not so sure it makes sense for golf or golf architecture.  Golf has been trying the make-the-game-easier route for a while now, to no avail.

[Brent Hutto]

It's all a matter of perspective. For 95% of the people who have ever played the game, the idea of learning "through caddying" would be a complete head-scratcher.

Why?  I had close friends that learned that way and my father did too.  Now many cart boys learn that way through having access from working at upscale pubic.  They first are attracted to the job for the tips, then they try it, they like it or they don't

Right. That's the 5%. Lot of people on this forum live in that world. Most golfers (the 95%) do not so they think it's all just something they saw on Caddyshack or that maybe happened back in the 60's before most of them were born.

   Have you ever caddied or worked in a bagroom/cart boy?  Whatever the percent is, I think golf is served well by having people who learn respect for the game and get free access to Golf.  Almost every private club in even small/big town had large caddie programs.  Just because a guy named Tiger made Golf cool, doesn't mean caddies/cart boys having access to free golf doesn't grow the game.  If your guess of 5% is right, I am sure many courses are in need of that 5%.  I have done those jobs at many courses, again have you Brent?  Any firsthand experience in thee Yard?

No. I never set foot on a golf course until I was 33 years old. And to that point in my life I had known exactly two people who played golf. One kid a couple years older than me who lived in the neighborhood played on the high school golf team. And I dated a girl for a while whose father played.

Which is my whole point. I grew up in a context where golf never even came up in conversation. Much less was something one did at a Country Club one belonged to. Millions of people are from the same background. Honest to god I don't think there was a place within 25 miles of my house that employed caddies in my lifetime (OK maybe when I was an infant in the 60's, who knows?).

For lots of golfers, the game is learned as an adult walking out onto some public courses with borrowed clubs and whacking the ball around with some guys from work. And many of them go on to play golf for years or decades without ever setting foot on a property that includes "the Yard" at all.

Sometimes people who grow up in that 5% seem to think the entire game consists of the Country Club world writ large. It's a very, very minority part of the game in most places.

[BCowan]

No. I never set foot on a golf course until I was 33 years old. And to that point in my life I had known exactly two people who played golf. One kid a couple years older than me who lived in the neighborhood played on the high school golf team. And I dated a girl for a while whose father played.

Which is my whole point. I grew up in a context where golf never even came up in conversation. Much less was something one did at a Country Club one belonged to. Millions of people are from the same background. Honest to god I don't think there was a place within 25 miles of my house that employed caddies in my lifetime (OK maybe when I was an infant in the 60's, who knows?).
first of all caddying is very big in the midwest and N East (presume)  Millions grew up just like you and many others that their parent's didn't play golf but they did these weird thing ''dropped their kids off to actually work''.  It is funny for i txted and went through all my friends that learned through caddying.  So because no one within 25 miles of where you grew up caddied means that it wasn't huge in many regions of the country?

For lots of golfers, the game is learned as an adult walking out onto some public courses with borrowed clubs and whacking the ball around with some guys from work. And many of them go on to play golf for years or decades without ever setting foot on a property that includes "the Yard" at all.That is one big sector, company leagues are big now.  but many did through caddying and now through shlepping carts at upscale public that weren't prominent 25 years ago!

Sometimes people who grow up in that 5% seem to think the entire game consists of the Country Club world writ large. It's a very, very minority part of the game in most places.I didn't grow up in the 5%, I am from Toledo,OH.  John Denver wrote a song ripping on the city, so nice class warfare tactic.  I included many other aspects of the CC world (for it seems to be shrinking).  Most of my friends didn't grow up at CC, and they all learned through looping.  Also many cart shleppers in Florida learned that way too.  This is all prior to Tiger woods becoming a world wide phenom.  Your outlook is so cynical, I think you have watch caddie shack too many times.  Many who I caddied for were caddies growing up, it wasn't blue blood.  Again many courses would gladly take that 5% number you came up with

[Tim Martin]

No. I never set foot on a golf course until I was 33 years old. And to that point in my life I had known exactly two people who played golf. One kid a couple years older than me who lived in the neighborhood played on the high school golf team. And I dated a girl for a while whose father played.

Which is my whole point. I grew up in a context where golf never even came up in conversation. Much less was something one did at a Country Club one belonged to. Millions of people are from the same background. Honest to god I don't think there was a place within 25 miles of my house that employed caddies in my lifetime (OK maybe when I was an infant in the 60's, who knows?).
first of all caddying is very big in the midwest and N East (presume)  Millions grew up just like you and many others that their parent's didn't play golf but they did these weird thing ''dropped their kids off to actually work''.  It is funny for i txted and went through all my friends that learned through caddying.  So because no one within 25 miles of where you grew up caddied means that it wasn't huge in many regions of the country?

For lots of golfers, the game is learned as an adult walking out onto some public courses with borrowed clubs and whacking the ball around with some guys from work. And many of them go on to play golf for years or decades without ever setting foot on a property that includes "the Yard" at all.That is one big sector, company leagues are big now.  but many did through caddying and now through shlepping carts at upscale public that weren't prominent 25 years ago!

Sometimes people who grow up in that 5% seem to think the entire game consists of the Country Club world writ large. It's a very, very minority part of the game in most places.I didn't grow up in the 5%, I am from Toledo,OH.  John Denver wrote a song ripping on the city, so nice class warfare tactic.  I included many other aspects of the CC world (for it seems to be shrinking).  Most of my friends didn't grow up at CC, and they all learned through looping.  Also many cart shleppers in Florida learned that way too.  This is all prior to Tiger woods becoming a world wide phenom.  Your outlook is so cynical, I think you have watch caddie shack too many times.  Many who I caddied for were caddies growing up, it wasn't blue blood.  Again many courses would gladly take that 5% number you came up with

Ben-As usual you have gotten far away from the original topic and at this point your ramblings have absolutely nothing to do with 15 inch cups and green strategy. We know from you repeating ad nauseum that you think caddies and cart boys are the backbone and savior of our great game. You seem to work it into every thread and it is tiresome at best. There are plenty of ways to get interested in and learn about golf/golf architecture and not all all of them start and finish in the "yard".

[Matt MacIver]

The strategy would come from a 4'25 inch wide cup but 15" long. Placing the cup parallel or perpendicular to the fairway would dictate your approach, as would green contours, etc.

Probably would end up taking the same time for high handicappers and possibly longer for good players (over-analyze?).

[BCowan]

No. I never set foot on a golf course until I was 33 years old. And to that point in my life I had known exactly two people who played golf. One kid a couple years older than me who lived in the neighborhood played on the high school golf team. And I dated a girl for a while whose father played.

Which is my whole point. I grew up in a context where golf never even came up in conversation. Much less was something one did at a Country Club one belonged to. Millions of people are from the same background. Honest to god I don't think there was a place within 25 miles of my house that employed caddies in my lifetime (OK maybe when I was an infant in the 60's, who knows?).
first of all caddying is very big in the midwest and N East (presume)  Millions grew up just like you and many others that their parent's didn't play golf but they did these weird thing ''dropped their kids off to actually work''.  It is funny for i txted and went through all my friends that learned through caddying.  So because no one within 25 miles of where you grew up caddied means that it wasn't huge in many regions of the country?

For lots of golfers, the game is learned as an adult walking out onto some public courses with borrowed clubs and whacking the ball around with some guys from work. And many of them go on to play golf for years or decades without ever setting foot on a property that includes "the Yard" at all.That is one big sector, company leagues are big now.  but many did through caddying and now through shlepping carts at upscale public that weren't prominent 25 years ago!

Sometimes people who grow up in that 5% seem to think the entire game consists of the Country Club world writ large. It's a very, very minority part of the game in most places.I didn't grow up in the 5%, I am from Toledo,OH.  John Denver wrote a song ripping on the city, so nice class warfare tactic.  I included many other aspects of the CC world (for it seems to be shrinking).  Most of my friends didn't grow up at CC, and they all learned through looping.  Also many cart shleppers in Florida learned that way too.  This is all prior to Tiger woods becoming a world wide phenom.  Your outlook is so cynical, I think you have watch caddie shack too many times.  Many who I caddied for were caddies growing up, it wasn't blue blood.  Again many courses would gladly take that 5% number you came up with

Ben-As usual you have gotten far away from the original topic and at this point your ramblings have absolutely nothing to do with 15 inch cups and green strategy. We know from you repeating ad nauseum that you think caddies and cart boys are the backbone and savior of our great game. You seem to work it into every thread and it is tiresome at best. There are plenty of ways to get interested in and learn about golf/golf architecture and not all all of them start and finish in the "yard".

   Timmie, as usual you are trolling.  Adding nothing to the 15 inch cup thread yourself.  You remind me of Timmie in Seinfeld that tells George not to double dip, not that I would.  Were you a tattle tale in school growing up?  I never indicated caddies and cart boys being majority of the game.  The funny thing is I bet many on here did start in the yard..  The fact that we are talking about 15 inch cups on here is pretty sad..  Those are my sentiments 

[Tim Martin]

No. I never set foot on a golf course until I was 33 years old. And to that point in my life I had known exactly two people who played golf. One kid a couple years older than me who lived in the neighborhood played on the high school golf team. And I dated a girl for a while whose father played.

Which is my whole point. I grew up in a context where golf never even came up in conversation. Much less was something one did at a Country Club one belonged to. Millions of people are from the same background. Honest to god I don't think there was a place within 25 miles of my house that employed caddies in my lifetime (OK maybe when I was an infant in the 60's, who knows?).
first of all caddying is very big in the midwest and N East (presume)  Millions grew up just like you and many others that their parent's didn't play golf but they did these weird thing ''dropped their kids off to actually work''.  It is funny for i txted and went through all my friends that learned through caddying.  So because no one within 25 miles of where you grew up caddied means that it wasn't huge in many regions of the country?

For lots of golfers, the game is learned as an adult walking out onto some public courses with borrowed clubs and whacking the ball around with some guys from work. And many of them go on to play golf for years or decades without ever setting foot on a property that includes "the Yard" at all.That is one big sector, company leagues are big now.  but many did through caddying and now through shlepping carts at upscale public that weren't prominent 25 years ago!

Sometimes people who grow up in that 5% seem to think the entire game consists of the Country Club world writ large. It's a very, very minority part of the game in most places.I didn't grow up in the 5%, I am from Toledo,OH.  John Denver wrote a song ripping on the city, so nice class warfare tactic.  I included many other aspects of the CC world (for it seems to be shrinking).  Most of my friends didn't grow up at CC, and they all learned through looping.  Also many cart shleppers in Florida learned that way too.  This is all prior to Tiger woods becoming a world wide phenom.  Your outlook is so cynical, I think you have watch caddie shack too many times.  Many who I caddied for were caddies growing up, it wasn't blue blood.  Again many courses would gladly take that 5% number you came up with

Ben-As usual you have gotten far away from the original topic and at this point your ramblings have absolutely nothing to do with 15 inch cups and green strategy. We know from you repeating ad nauseum that you think caddies and cart boys are the backbone and savior of our great game. You seem to work it into every thread and it is tiresome at best. There are plenty of ways to get interested in and learn about golf/golf architecture and not all all of them start and finish in the "yard".

   Timmie, as usual you are trolling.  Adding nothing to the 15 inch cup thread yourself.  You remind me of Timmie in Seinfeld that tells George not to double dip, not that I would.  Were you a tattle tale in school growing up?  I never indicated caddies and cart boys being majority of the game.  The funny thing is I bet many on here did start in the yard..  The fact that we are talking about 15 inch cups on here is pretty sad..  Those are my sentiments 

Ben-Although I don't ever remember being a tattle tale I was a caddie. It's a shame that for a fairly young guy you have such a narrow view of the world and our great game.

[BCowan]

''Ben-Although I don't ever remember being a tattle tale I was a caddie. It's a shame that for a fairly young guy you have such a narrow view of the world and our great game.''

   I consider myself very in tune with the world and have met many great people ingrained in Golf.  Have fun with those 15 inch cups. 

[DMoriarty]

Let me try to bring it back to topic. Caddy programs have about as much chance of growing the game as 15 inch cups.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Let me try to bring it back to topic. Caddy programs have about as much chance of growing the game as 15 inch cups.

David-
Would you mind expanding?
Thanks,
MS

[Matthew Petersen]

I think the 15" cups are dumb.  It still does nothing to address the fact that the full swing is the most difficult part of the game.

15" cups don't do much for the guy or girl that can't hit the ball more than 5 yards off the tee.

This is where I think the issue lies.

Putting is hard, but for a beginner it's the easiest part of the game. Really growing the game needs to involve bringing new people in, not just getting the casual player to play more. The barrier to that is that learning the golf swing is really, really hard.

And I'm not at all sure that 15 inch cups even make the game more popular among casual players. The people who might find that attractive are probably not guys sweating out their 4 foot putts. The kind of person who isn't taking gimmes on a 4 footer is likely to not consider this "real" golf, no matter how much he plays.

[Greg Murphy]

The strategy would come from a 4'25 inch wide cup but 15" long. Placing the cup parallel or perpendicular to the fairway would dictate your approach, as would green contours, etc.

Probably would end up taking the same time for high handicappers and possibly longer for good players (over-analyze?).

Now that is a game changing concept. An oblong rather than round hole. Could potentially add more relevance to angles of play than any hazard between tee and green. I have nothing against the cup as is and I have my doubts changing the cup would bring a lot of people to the game who wouldn't already play. But I also have my doubts that a target once arbitrarily chosen in a time when the playing surfaces barely resemble what is played on today is necessarily the most interesting way to conclude a hole. Change the hole and everything changes, which is the scary part. Mike asked whether it would reduce strategy. Yeah, if nothing else changes. But why wouldn't a change to the hole lead to other changes, for example, far more dramatic undulations within greens?

[DMoriarty]

David-
Would you mind expanding?
Thanks,
MS

Sure. I assume you were asking for me to expand re caddy programs because I already gave my thoughts on the Big Gulp Golf^TM above.

I have absolutely no issue whatsoever with caddies or caddy programs and I have no doubt that some limited number of kids are introduced to the game through caddying. Nonetheless, I just don't see caddy programs by as a realistic solution to grow the game.  It is purely a numbers issue.  I don't remember where, but I read recently that over 5 million golfers have given up the game since 2000.  There aren't enough caddies or caddy programs to make a dent in that, are there?  

More generally, there are a relatively small number of clubs have caddy programs, as compared to the number of courses that don't.  And many of those employ professional caddies who are already into golf, don't they?  So, each year, how many new caddies are exposed through caddying programs?   And of these how many would not be exposed to the game otherwise? (Caddying seems like hard work, so my guess is that some kids who want to caddy have an interest in the game.)  Whatever the number it must be minuscule when compared to the number of golfers nationwide (around 25 million), or even the number of golfers leaving the game.

In short, it would take many million caddies to grow the game, and there just aren't that many caddy programs.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think you guys cannot even see the point.  Golf works great for about 8M old white guys like us, for whom it is great just the way it is.  Why change?  Why should anyone ever want something different that what is traditional golf?

Does the NBA fight street basketball?  Stop anyone from playing in the driveway?  Does the MLB fight softball?  Why shouldn't there be cheaper, easier versions of golf to access for the masses?  Heck, if there were, more folks would enjoy the essense of the game - hitting a ball with a club.  Maybe some (like Japan) never get out of the Top Golf driving range, and others never get off the 12 hole challenge courses with big cups.  So what?

Well, tradition is great, and change is constant.  While we all love golf as it is, it is not out of the question that it will be forced to change with the times to survive, even having done quite well for 500 years without a lot of change (although, we can all argue that, and often do when it comes to tech, turf and whatever else)  For that matter, is the "golf is meant to be tough?" really true?  Or was golf meant to be fun?

I think what the USGA gets stuck on is the "one rules" setup.  However, its not like every course will have 15" (or pick a more reasonable size) but that some will offer an alternative.  I see a lot of housing courses converting parts of golf to more residential for profit, but also horseshoes, dog parks, skateboard parks, whatever, leaving the 9-12 hole challenge course (or whatever the site dictates) as one recreation option, not the only one.  We have so many more recreation options, it could be the "market" will tell developers.

More than that, just as modern courses got more visual because we were the TV generation, I fully expect some design changes for the next "play station" generation.  Not sure what it may be, but will center on more tech and more "instant information" to reflect life as it is and will be.  Probably more like Top Golf, with computer chips embedded in the ball for total shot link type info on every shot in the players Google Golf Glasses, or something like that.

Of course, none of us can say, but it may be that golf has a tough choice - remain an old world game that a few play in secret, and a few others try every few years on a lark, or get with the times.  Most here will protest, but again, none of us can say if golf can stick its head in the sand and survive.

Or, with 15K golf courses, some blend of both.  Now, you might be like the USGA guy who said Hack Golf can do whatever they want, but we won't call it golf.  Fine, although I think keeping the loose affiliation with golf as the ancestor is probably inevitable (Top Golf.......I am your father......)  Or not. Maybe the generations of minorities and poor that have a bad image of golf might be more likely to take it up in some other version called something totally different.

[BCowan]

''Of course, none of us can say, but it may be that golf has a tough choice - remain an old world game that a few play in secret, and a few others try every few years on a lark, or get with the times.  Most here will protest, but again, none of us can say if golf can stick its head in the sand and survive.''

Jeff,

   Please. Golf was booming and goes hand in hand with the economy.  I am sure you miss the artificial boom times, but you r insulting many people with the idea of 15 inch cup, and I don't look at things through GCA eyes.  People are either going to Frisbee golf or they are not, and I love Frisbee golf.  9 hole courses are popping up and money is getting put into them.  Do you really believe the diatribe you just wrote?  I find it funny shack wrote about this, after finishing the first two chapters of one of his books talking about his pure intentions for golf.  

''Maybe the generations of minorities and poor that have a bad image of golf might be more likely to take it up in some other version called something totally different.''

   Tiger Woods or through caddying (which i have caddied with inner city kids) great to watch them succeed, but of course you can't mention caddying on here.  Jeff, when was the last time you played an inner city muni?

[Brent Hutto]

There are 100 things I can think of that might make golf more attractive to a working class non-white kid coming along today. Making the holes in putting greens 15" hole instead of 4-1/2" one doesn't even make list. Doesn't come close.

Where does an idea like that start? Is there some consultant's report somewhere saying that putting to a small hole is a major barrier to golf participation.

I hate to quit pulling my punches because I like and respect you guys and your intentions are honorable but it's sheer nonsense. The size of the hole has nothing to do with nothing.

As for the sidetrack concerning pitch-and-putt courses, if someone wants to build them and someone wants to play them then I think they are a great idea. But again, little to do with golf and I can't see it having any impact beyond creation of a presumably fun activity, pitch-and-putt. At most it's a competing alternative to golf. More likely it's not even operating in the same market.

[jeffwarne]

Random thoughts

Here's what really cracks me up.
15 inch cups are going to have kids roaring out of the ghetto to embrace golf.?
presumably because they have the yips on conventional greens?

Can you be anti anchoring and pro large cups?
new slogan
"conventional and traditional technique to untraditional targets"
that will get the new players pouring in.

Frankly I'd like to finish wringing out the remaining excess players who jumped in because golf was "cool",
and focus on growing the game the way it's always grown, through junior programs, caddie and employee programs,First Tee and similar  in school programs, and make room for those who REALLY want to play and embrace all that golf can do for someone, rather than wasting limited resources on players who aren't biting or into other things.
Hold onto the kids we have and provide MORE opportunities for them, rather than trying to appeal to everyone.
Golf is not for everyone-still

[Dave Doxey]

Market forces are a beautiful thing.

When (if?) a course tries 15 inch cups, we’ll see if it sells or not.

No reason to try to prevent it.

Golfers will vote with their greens fees.

[Brent Hutto]

Dave,

I don't think they're pitching this to "golfers". The whole idea seems to be that there are non-golfers who would be attracted to a game much like golf except for putting being much, much, much easier.

It's akin to taking the famous Hogan comment about putting ought to be less important and making that the core of an outreach plan to grow "the game" (in the sense of "game" being an activity that takes place with golf clubs and golf balls on golf course-like venues using some but not all of the same rules as golf).

[M. Shea Sweeney]

David-
Would you mind expanding?
Thanks,
MS

Sure. I assume you were asking for me to expand re caddy programs because I already gave my thoughts on the Big Gulp Golf^TM above.

I have absolutely no issue whatsoever with caddies or caddy programs and I have no doubt that some limited number of kids are introduced to the game through caddying. Nonetheless, I just don't see caddy programs by as a realistic solution to grow the game.  It is purely a numbers issue.  I don't remember where, but I read recently that over 5 million golfers have given up the game since 2000.  There aren't enough caddies or caddy programs to make a dent in that, are there?  

More generally, there are a relatively small number of clubs have caddy programs, as compared to the number of courses that don't.  And many of those employ professional caddies who are already into golf, don't they?  So, each year, how many new caddies are exposed through caddying programs?   And of these how many would not be exposed to the game otherwise? (Caddying seems like hard work, so my guess is that some kids who want to caddy have an interest in the game.)  Whatever the number it must be minuscule when compared to the number of golfers nationwide (around 25 million), or even the number of golfers leaving the game.

In short, it would take many million caddies to grow the game, and there just aren't that many caddy programs.  

David-
What you wrote is not wrong--but that doesn't mean that caddie programs are not a form of growing the game.

Your post to me is ironic because its merits are inherently why the "Big Gulp" cups have come about. Golf has never been meant to support housing developments and TaylorMade's 1 year product cycle. But housing developments and 1 year product cycles do need those 5 million golfers we lost to survive.

How many ice hockey housing developments are there? Don't see them trying to make the size of the goal 10 feet wide....

Circling back--- bottom line is if each caddie program out there got 2-3 kids a year access to a golf course, and the lessons learned from working at one, then I think they are doing their job.

Did you caddie as a child, or have any friends or family who did?

Thanks,
Mike Sweeney

[jeffwarne]

So Im  a new golfer.
I nervously whiff twice, top three more, whiff twice moe and my buddies scream pick it up 200 yards from the green
Thank God for those 15 inch cups.
Here's one vote for pitch and putt

[George Pazin]

Mike,  I agree that the idea would impact all aspects of the game, not just putting.   Strategy works from the hole back to the tee, and if you are starting off with a 15 inch hole, then some of the strategic options are going to play out differently throughout.  Just bashing it up there close and then chipping would seem to be a more viable option with a 15 inch cup.

This is what I was trying to say initially, it's just much much clearer and to the point. I think the 15 inch cup would remove most strategy and everyone would move to bomb and gouge.

Most people don't understand strategy now, at least not consciously, and 15 inch cups would only reinforce their ignorance.

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