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Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Name 3.  Not sure I can.  Lousy is the wrong word, but rather which courses are built on sand with really good links turf that could have been significantly better?

Old Head?-  probably not enough land to begin with.  Could it have been the world's best 9-holer?
Bally Cashen?-  probably too severe of a property to begin with?
Tralee?- was an opportunity for greatness missed here?
The European Club- did the desire for a top tournament test lead to a design misstep?
St. Andrews Castle?

Discuss...
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 09:07:37 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lousy courses built on sand with fescue
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2014, 08:14:12 AM »
Not sure Old Head is built on sand,or with fescue/links turf, or for that matter that it's lousy

Tralee is lousy? :o :o
I happen to think it's a fantastic course.
I will say my opinion went up after my more recent visit.


Bally Cashen-tough/severe property-pretty good course-if it was located elsewhere it would get better reviews

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lousy courses built on sand with fescue
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2014, 08:17:19 AM »
Hi Jud,

Perhaps one or two could be classed a missed opportunity... but only at a push... None are even close to lousy

Don't believe Old Head or Castle Course were built on good soil though...

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lousy courses built on sand with fescue
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2014, 08:21:09 AM »
Ally/Jeff,

"Lousy" was a bit of a joke to grab viewers.  But if you have a 4/5 course that could have been a 7/8 that's a missed opportunity in my book.  Not sure all these qualify.  Interested to hear other candidates...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lousy courses built on sand with fescue
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2014, 08:28:16 AM »
I'd suggest that Dundonald isn't all it could be but wouldn't necessarily put that down to Kyle Philips, I think his client managed to hamper his efforts pretty well.

Niall

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lousy courses built on sand with fescue
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2014, 08:47:41 AM »
Wasn't the Castle Course built on farmland?
Cave Nil Vino

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses built on sand with fescue that could have been more
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2014, 09:08:10 AM »
Renamed for the politically correct...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Charlie Gallagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses built on sand with fescue that could have been more
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2014, 09:52:51 AM »
     I would be interested in the perceived flaws the poster finds in the identified courses. I can anticipate based upon past critiques. Trallee  gets whacked for a supposedly mediocre front 9. The Cashen is often said to be too unforgiving and narrow. Old Head gets it for being shoe horned into the site. I agree with some of those slights, but not all of them. What are others perceptions of the flaws in these links or hybrid courses?
    I like all of these courses. I have played only one links in Ireland I didn't care for, Doonbeg, and even that one has a number of holes I think are very good. It has a couple however, that I  don't think were at all well thought out. The flat 12th, the par 4 with the bunker in the middle of the green is just a lousy golf hole. 14 plays directly into the prevailing wind and even though it is short, its green is too narrow for the shot required given the wind that is omnipresent. One more from that course, I think its the 3rd hole, a par 5 of about 575 yards, the landing area for the drive is partially blind and Norman saw fit to put an enormous bunker in the middle of it. That would be ok if the fairway there was wide enough to present options to more average players, but it isn't and unless you can hit it 300+ over the bunker you are better off laying off driver and staying well short. It's just really crummy design, having the safe play take driver right out of your hands on a par 5 of that length.
    Ok, so I've added a links course where the architect didn't get nearly what he could have out of the site. I'd like to see Trump bring in an architect to fix some of those flaws, and I do think the bad holes can be repaired and made much more enticing. One more thing to add, I'm well aware of the restrictions that were put on Norman due to dune preservation and the snail protection issue. With the possible exception of 14 green, I don't believe the site restrictions impacted the mediocre holes I have identified.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses built on sand with fescue that could have been more
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2014, 09:55:24 AM »
The soil at the Castle course was _decidedly_ not sand. Horrible stuff. The quality of the turf is pretty remarkable given the stuff it grows on.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

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Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses built on sand with fescue that could have been more
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2014, 10:44:48 AM »
St. Andrews Castle is not on sand.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lousy courses built on sand with fescue
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2014, 10:47:27 AM »
Ally/Jeff,

"Lousy" was a bit of a joke to grab viewers.  But if you have a 4/5 course that could have been a 7/8 that's a missed opportunity in my book.  Not sure all these qualify.  Interested to hear other candidates...

What if that 4/5 could've been a 1/2? ;D ;D
How do we know the course could've been better when all we see is the end result?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses built on sand with fescue that could have been more
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2014, 10:54:50 AM »
Carne
Princes
Royal Porthcawl

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses built on sand with fescue that could have been more
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2014, 11:06:24 AM »
Interestingly this is a thread where a bunch of amateurs state they have would done better than a bunch of professionals.
Jud's opening either consciously or unconsciously reflects the CG on at least two courses, so it seems to me he is on safer ground than the rest of you.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses built on sand with fescue that could have been more
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2014, 11:07:34 AM »
Carne
Princes
Royal Porthcawl

Given what I've read of your posts, I'll take these as high praise, and will have to make an effort to see them. ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses built on sand with fescue that could have been more
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2014, 11:14:28 AM »
Carne
Princes
Royal Porthcawl

Well I won’t comment on Carne because my view may be seen as biased…. Princes I’ve never seen in the flesh but I understand it’s on pancake flat land and I’ve never heard it described as a missed opportunity… Porthcawl I think you’ve lost your marbles – Some great design there…

Niall – Be interested on your take on Dundonald.

Charlie – There may be elements of the Doonbeg design that people don’t like… I may even agree with them… But at least they are bold design decisions and I’d rather a course was bold than bland…

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses built on sand with fescue that could have been more
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2014, 11:19:14 AM »
Carne
Princes
Royal Porthcawl

Given what I've read of your posts, I'll take these as high praise, and will have to make an effort to see them. ;D


Oh they're no Blue Monsters but certainly worth seeking out.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses built on sand with fescue that could have been more
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2014, 11:23:48 AM »
Is this thread an example that free-draining soil, firm & fast conditions can negate even the worst design or is it an example that people are more willing to look past poor design on long-standing courses?


Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses built on sand with fescue that could have been more
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2014, 11:26:15 AM »
Carne
Princes
Royal Porthcawl

Well I won’t comment on Carne because my view may be seen as biased…. Princes I’ve never seen in the flesh but I understand it’s on pancake flat land and I’ve never heard it described as a missed opportunity… Porthcawl I think you’ve lost your marbles – Some great design there…

Niall – Be interested on your take on Dundonald.

Charlie – There may be elements of the Doonbeg design that people don’t like… I may even agree with them… But at least they are bold design decisions and I’d rather a course was bold than bland…


Ally

I only played the original 18 at Carne. And whilst being very good. I felt it could have been great and having made the long journey, it left me somewhat underwhelmed.

Porthcawl has some fantastic holes, I agree. It also has a fair few that are mediocre and I'm not sure the recent alterations are improvements. Porthcawl would not be so highly regarded if it wasn't in Wales.

It's all relative, I'd love to be a member, but these are the courses that spring to mind, in response to the question.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses built on sand with fescue that could have been more
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2014, 12:25:52 PM »
Interestingly this is a thread where a bunch of amateurs state they have would done better than a bunch of professionals.
Jud's opening either consciously or unconsciously reflects the CG on at least two courses, so it seems to me he is on safer ground than the rest of you.


Actually its a thread where a bunch of amateurs think that the professional could have done better. There's a difference.

Niall

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses built on sand with fescue that could have been more
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2014, 12:29:34 PM »
Interestingly this is a thread where a bunch of amateurs state they have would done better than a bunch of professionals.
Jud's opening either consciously or unconsciously reflects the CG on at least two courses, so it seems to me he is on safer ground than the rest of you.


Actually its a thread where a bunch of amateurs think that the professional could have done better. There's a difference.

Niall

It seems logical to me that if you say the professional could have done better, then you have seen something that could be better, so if you were given the job you would have done what you see and it would have been better than what the professional did.  ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses built on sand with fescue that could have been more
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2014, 12:40:53 PM »
Is this thread an example that free-draining soil, firm & fast conditions can negate even the worst design or is it an example that people are more willing to look past poor design on long-standing courses?



Josh,

That's essentially what I was getting at.  There's really not much links golf that sucks.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses built on sand with fescue that could have been more
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2014, 12:44:27 PM »
Ally

Re Dundonald, I saw this during construction and the site was pure sand with room to spare and no real constraints such as SSSI (at least on the main part of the site) so it had huge potential.

What's there isn't a bad course and indeed has some pretty decent holes but overall there is something lacking particularly in comparison to Philips other Scottish course. At Kingsbarns it looks as though they created a landscape and then lay a course over it whereas at Dundonald its just another modern design with relatively flat fairways, a row of containment mounding/dunes down the side of the fairway playing to slightly raised greens. Even where they have tried to be bold it hasn't quite come off. It has been a number of years since I last played there so maybe the passage of time would give me a different perspective, I don't know. If there are any GCA's up this way looking to play it, give me a shout and I might be tempted to make up the fourball.

As an aside, I was playing golf with a member recently and he told me the club actually made a profit last year, which I took to mean that they covered their running costs (minus interest charges on capital possibly) from visitor fees.

Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses built on sand with fescue that could have been more
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2014, 12:46:18 PM »
The soil at the Castle course was _decidedly_ not sand. Horrible stuff. The quality of the turf is pretty remarkable given the stuff it grows on.

Adam

I've not played the Castle, only walked a number of the holes and spoken to those that have played it. Ignoring the question of soil, do you think they fluffed the opportunity ?

Niall

Brett Hochstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses built on sand with fescue that could have been more
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2014, 01:01:21 PM »
If you modified the title to "Courses built on sand that could have had fescue and been more," you would really have a lot of candidates.  You've got probably most of Northern Michigan alone, especially as one gets closer to Lake Michigan (temp regulation for fescue).  I don't want to get started on that rant though.

As far as what's mentioned, I can't really comment not having seen all of them, and I can't think of new ones.  It's hard to have a truly bad day whenever the opportunity to play on fescue presents itself.  Surely, stuff can often be better, and my eye does have that tendency to analyze features.  But I can't say I've ever had something of a "lousy" experience on fescue.
"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses built on sand with fescue that could have been more
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2014, 01:06:35 PM »
Carne
Princes
Royal Porthcawl

I really don't know about Carne because its a wild site.  I suspect that if there was a bigger budget, perhaps some land could have been shifted to create a better course, but that is a guess.  

Porthcawl uses the land pretty well I think.  I always think the features are not terribly adventurous, but for all that, its a very good course.  

I like Princes a lot, but I am sure if it were only 18 holes a better design could be had.  The land is actually quite good but because of the squeeze for 27 holes, I get the feeling there is no room to run holes contrary to the dunes system.  as it holes, many holes run between the low lying dunes.  Good stuff for sure, but man, if they could go for a restoration of the original course it may be a world beater.

I think more could have been had out of Hillside.  I think more could be had out of Burham. The course is based around what was the available land, but things have changed.  There is an entire dune ridge practically untouched and a few holes on the Channel Course which are outstanding.

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 01:09:12 PM by Sean_A »
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