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Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
So, this site is devoted to frank discussion of golf architecture. With good reason, we focus mostly on the best that category has to offer. There are plenty of people who bemoan the other side, but rarely a thread that takes a good hard look at it.

It’s often said we learn the most from our failures, right? So let’s have a look at an honest to god Tom Doak zero: “A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, which I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Resrved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.”

Furthermore, as is often the case with a zero, this course may be not long for this world. The university has signed a deal to move their teams to Papago, perhaps keeping the practice range in the current location, and developing the current course into … well, who knows. Anything more profitable than a golf course (housing, a new football stadium, parking for football, and other ideas have all been raised at various times).

ASU Karsten Golf Course, Pete & Perry Dye (1989)

“The worst site I've ever seen is the Karsten GC at Arizona State.  Pete Dye said he was glad to have it, because there was no way anyone could criticize him for not improving the site -- but it isn't a very good course.”
-- Tom Doak, in this thread: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,8421.msg160491.html#msg160491

“0.”
-- Doak rating. The Confidential Guide to Golf Courses.

It’s certainly hard to argue the merits of the site, in any context. As the aerials below show, you have two small parcels of land bordered by busy roads, office buildings, the Ocotillo power plant, a man made lake that you can’t see, and university athletic facilities (some courses provide classic rock music on the range—at ASU, you hear whatever is blasting during football practice).

The holes are squeezed and bordered by large mounding. Dye uses that sometimes effectively to do more than simply block views, but it makes for plenty of strange cart paths, not to mention the prospect of wayward balls that suddenly find an adjacent fairway with little warning. Even despite the mounding and significant “created” features of the course, it’s not hard to discern that the site offered very little natural land movement. (Given how cramped the holes are, maybe it’s better there were no further constraints on the routing possibilities.)

But with all that said, few of the individual holes actually feel especially cramped and if you can focus on the golf and not the surrounds, there are some good holes and shots around here. Maybe what I’m arguing is simply that, while any course on this site was likely to be a zero, this one is still probably better than what some might have done.



The clubhouse, driving range, front nine, and #10 & 18 are on the south side of Rio Salado Parkway.



11-17 occupy a small parcel north of Rio Salado. Even with this road crossing, the course is quite walkable. Appropriate for a course that plays host to many collegiate events.

The course currently plays to a par 70*, 7,002 yards from the “Professional” (ironically, most often played by the ASU men’s team and their opponents) tees. The tips rate out at 73.8 / 131.

But moving up gets much more forgiving. The next set is under 6,300 yards. I’ll give yardages for both sets during the tour.

* The course was designed as a par 72, but two par 5s were converted to par 4s (I guess to make it “harder” for the college kids?) in the mid 2000s. The holes were unchanged, they just play from forward tees.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 11:55:44 PM by Matthew Petersen »

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2014, 11:51:18 PM »
#1, par 4. 402/341

A bit of a “handshake opener,” but still a hole with a lot of Pete Dye in it. It’s a gentle dogleg right with a wide fairway and all the trouble down the right side (bunkers or, way right, OOB). It’s short enough that there’s little reason to challenge the right side, and it provides no better angle to the green sunken among large mounds. But from all but the back tee you can see that flagstick, and the line of charm is strong.

View from just left of the tee:


Approach to the green. A wayward shot in might find a deep grass swale or catch on of the ridges and kick toward the surface. And what a view beyond that green!



#2, par 4. 323/296

A short 4 with lots of options. From the tee, the view is dominated by three deep-faced bunkers. From the tips, it’s about 280 to clear the big one on the right. That’s the preferred line if trying to get it up in front of or on the green. Carrying that “center line” (so it seems) bunker is a bit of a trick. Over the bunker on that line will leave a tricky pitch.



Tee shots played shot of the big bunker on the right get the best angle down the length of the green, but the view is largely blocked by the bunker.

The green is angled away to the left, narrows toward the back, and surrounded by deep grass bunkers. From the bottom of these, to a back pin, it can be difficult to keep a ball on the green (don’t ask how I know).




#3, par 4. 423/373

An almost 90-degree dogleg left, the view from the tee is of mounds and a single bunker left. Again, the play is not to challenge that side, but to try to drive it as far down the right side as possible to open up a view of the green.


This is a view down the fairway, toward the green, taken from the mounds between 2 and 3 (again, please don’t ask why I happened to be there).


A drive down the left side doesn’t offer much of a view (the green is over the tree)


A better look at the large green and put bunker set into the knob front left:


From the right side of the green. It’s circular and divided by a small high’s back dividing the left and right side of the green. When the hole is tucked left behind the knob and bunker, this ridge makes life difficult for those who play safely to the middle of the green.



#4, par 4. 420/389

Water! Railroad ties! Now even the casual golfer knows he’s on a Pete Dye course.

The bunker in the center right of the fairway is out of reach for most players (320 from the tips). The decision is whether you want to drive to the wide part of the fairway there, which leaves a better angle to the green, or challenge the left side, which opens up the view (but only slightly (there’s another big knob in front of this green that blocks the view of the bottom of the flag for most hole locations). Then again, from behind the big bunker on the right, you might have no view of the green at all.



There’s plenty of room short and right of the green, but the lake immediately abuts the surface on the left and wraps around the back.



#5, par 4. 493/462.

Our fifth par 4 in a row to start, this was originally a par 5, and was a much better hole then.

From the tee, the hole turns gently to the right. There are a few trees and a waste area right of the fairway, and big trouble in the form of an incredibly out of place copse of pine trees and a bunker to the left.

Previously, the decision was whether to lay back of where the fairway narrows and turns and avoid all this potential trouble off the tee, or challenge it with the reward of potentially getting home in two. That’s much less of an option now, and not just because they changed the par number on the card. Though listed at 462, I don’t think I’ve ever seen the gold tee back there since the hole was converted. It’s usually up in the 420 range. A layup to the wider first part of the fairway from that tee would be a shot of little more than 140-160 yards. No one is going to play the hole that way (on purpose).



The green is alps style, hidden behind this large mound with two bunkers in it’s face. You can only just see the top of the flag to get an idea of where the hole and green are. What’s not immediately apparent is that these mounds are a good 30 yards short of the putting surface. In fact there’s another set of bunkers immediately fronting the green and many a player has happily seen his ball successfully carry the mounds only to find he’s bunkered, or otherwise not putting.



You can see just the top of the flag for this far right hole location, over the top f the right bunker.



As a par 5, or to the shorter hitting but prudent player, there is plenty of room to play around to the left and get some view of the green for your third shot.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 11:58:22 PM by Matthew Petersen »

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2014, 12:39:01 AM »
I guess one positive is the mounding does create some blind shots and some deception.... But I would expect that knowing it was a Dye course.

Honestly, the course could be worse.... so would that make a course that was a negative?  ;D
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2014, 12:42:01 AM »
The buildings, the powerlines, the mounding, the high blue sky... Did you feel like you were in a fishtank? I feel trapped just looking at the photos through my computer screen.

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2014, 01:02:32 AM »
The buildings, the powerlines, the mounding, the high blue sky... Did you feel like you were in a fishtank? I feel trapped just looking at the photos through my computer screen.

I would say it feels a lot more open than it looks in photos generally. But maybe that deeds on what you're comparing it, too. So many Phoenix-area courses are choked with homes that knowing your wayward tee ball here is merely going into an adjacent fairway, and not someone's back yard, makes a guy feel like he can really stretch his arms.

Or maybe I'm just used to the place.

Certainly the photos help drive home how ugly the surrounds are.

Greg Murphy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2014, 01:22:21 AM »
The mounding is severe. I recall being there once and a mower was stuck on a green side mound - I think it was short left on the second hole - and a tractor was out to tow it off the mound - still - not a zero

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2014, 04:36:11 AM »
Doak '0'.

It would be interesting to use photoshop or something similar to remove all the clutter and buildings and cartpaths and power cables etc from these photos and superimpose the sea and a sandy beach or a mountain range behind the holes instead and then post it as a photo-tour thread.

Or alternatively, change the background in photos of a course that is much loved and highly praised herein and insert industrial buildings, power cables, an oil tank farm, tower block housing etc.

Post the thread(s) under assumed course names and wait for the responses. Maybe 1st April would be a good day for posting such a thread:)

atb

John Percival

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2014, 08:24:28 AM »
It's been a few years, but my rounds at ASU were always enjoyable.
Don't recall those huge powerlines along 5 as being there. Might have been put in over the years. Cant fault an architect for that.
Would like to know if ASU owned the land, if it was donated or if they paid for it (hope not the last!).
 
Understand how Doak holds Pete to a higher standard, but never understood his rating. The course offers proximity to the university. Pete created some interesting holes, especially when you consider the mixed use of college players (outstanding players) and the average player, students and faculty.
Would be interesting to get some former players/students opinions (anonymously) about the facility. Especially from other Pac 10 schools.

Let's face it, AZ doesn't offer the same aura as Columbus (OSU), Ann Arbor (UofM) or almost any other college town. That said, maybe UCLA has it right, playing at BelAir, but would ASU really be able to play at Ppago, where rounds can easily take 5+ hours? How do you schedule for that? How do players fit in practice? Remember, we're talking about one of the nation's premier programs. They've gotta have access.

Maybe a good way to rate a course is like a coach. If you're given something nasty and make it decent, then credit due for getting the most out of them (it).

Sam Morrow

Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2014, 12:55:46 PM »
I've seen much worse.

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2014, 01:18:19 PM »
Reasonably priced golf, and they used to have carts with four bag attachments so that I could walk without having to carry the bag. Certainly neither scenic nor desert golf, but there are much worse ways to spend one's time in the Valley. . .

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2014, 01:19:31 PM »
I've seen much worse.

I think I have, too, but I'm pretty sure I could put together a photo tour of the worst course I've played in the Twin Cities and make it look really appealing. I'll leave it to the Minnesota GCA guys to figure out which course I'm talking about, but I think they'd agree with my premise. Photos don't a golf course justice -- in either direction.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2014, 01:26:51 PM »
Table Rock in Ohio is worse than this.  We need negative Doak scoring! 

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2014, 01:37:40 PM »
I think that the point of the zero rating is sort of almost that it's off the charts--it's barely even a judgement of the course itself, but of the project. The rating is saying this land would have been better off were it never developed into a golf course.

That's what I think is fascinating, because the course and the holes actually have plenty to recommend them. Doak gives Red Mountain Ranch, a Pete & Perry Dye effort from 1987, a 3 rating. I would play Karsten 8-to-2 over RMR, which is choked by homes (maybe less so when Tom played it, I'm not sure) but I suppose has better views beyond the roof tops.

Anyway, on with the tour ...

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye) New
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2014, 01:38:30 PM »
#6, par 3. 209/176.

The first par 3 plays back parallel to the fifth, with the waste area again protecting the right side. What you see is the story here—right is not good at all. The green has a sizable tier in it dividing front and back. Playing into the prevailing wind, it is very difficult to get back to hole locations on the top back shelf.




#7, par 3. 155/134.

Back to back par 3s on an entirely created course. Charming quirk? Necessity based on the limited land available? Either way, these back-to-back one-shotters provide a nice contrast. Six is long and into the wind, 7 is short and downwind. The big bunker is well short of the green. There’s a fairway cut of chipping area short of the green on that line, and a bunker behind the green. But this is a shot par 3 to a big green.



Did you like the via beyond the 7th green? Well, you’ll love what you can catch a glimpse of off to the right!



#8, par 4. 380/323

A tricky little par 4 that is not hard, but certainly plays tougher than it seems on the card. A slight dogleg left, there are bulkheaded bunkers up the left side. A big driver could carry it over all of them, but to little end. The hole is ore uphill than it looks, the fairway narrows the closer you get to the green, and it’s into the wind. There’s also OOB left that’s no threat for a normal the shot, but is closer to the green in a way that it could threaten someone trying to knock it up close.

A good drive in the wide fairway leaves an uphill second to a green that again has a significant tier dividing front and back. Deep bunkers protect short right. Again, it’s harder than you expect to get it on the back their when the hole is cut up there.

My only picture is from the green looking back toward the tee:



#9, par 4. 446/399.

A beast, especially from the back tee. In another ye trademark, 9 and 18 parallel each other around a lake edged with railroad ties.

The bushes obscure that the landing area is quite wide to the left, but the safe route just makes a long hole (again, into the prevailing wind) longer.


Drives to the left side of the fairway must cover mounds and grass bunkers to reach the green. Even a drive that challenges the right side doesn’t get a clear view on account of this rough-covered knob in front of the green. The water immediately abuts the green to the right, with a sand bunker back right.

« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 02:50:58 PM by Matthew Petersen »

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2014, 09:13:23 PM »
I've seen much worse.

I was contemplating whether other courses I have seen were worse or much worse, but after seeing the addition of the rest of the front nine, I can confirm that.......

I've seen much worse.
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Sam Morrow

Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2014, 10:23:30 PM »
I've seen much worse.

I was contemplating whether other courses I have seen were worse or much worse, but after seeing the addition of the rest of the front nine, I can confirm that.......

I've seen much worse.

I don't care if anybody wants to call this a O or whatever, I'd happily play this course. Of course I enjoy playing golf more than I enjoy stroking my nonexistent beard.

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2014, 01:24:02 AM »
I've seen much worse.

I was contemplating whether other courses I have seen were worse or much worse, but after seeing the addition of the rest of the front nine, I can confirm that.......

I've seen much worse.

I don't care if anybody wants to call this a 0 or whatever, I'd happily play this course. Of course I enjoy playing golf more than I enjoy stroking my nonexistent beard.

I wouldn't mind playing it either. Just stating the fact I have seen worse.
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2014, 09:35:26 AM »
Thanks for posting this Matthew.

In a locale with an abundance of cookie-cutter real estate courses, each indistinguishable from the other, Karsten certainly has some character.  It is interesting and sometimes amusing.  While not something I would want a steady diet of, I enjoy playing the course every now and then.  Granted, the periphery is awful but as Matthew pointed out, it is a core routing and it is walkable.

One thing I've noted, they seem to set it up so that local knowledge is key, sometimes growing thick rough on one side of a green, while mowing the other side short, etc., seeming to give a bit of "home field advantage" for the teams. One definitely needs to know where to miss and where not to miss.

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2014, 09:36:26 AM »
Starting the back nine ...

#10, par 4. 498/478

This is the other converted par 5, and it too tends to play from the up tee, despite being on the card at a much longer distance.

The fairway runs straight out from the tee toward those two round bunkers. At that point (about 200 yards from the 440 tee), the fairway jogs left. If you want to hit a longer drive than that, you aim left over those bunkers on the left side (or even further left, the minds over there tend to help kick it down). That’s really the only way to play the hole as a par 4.



The approach is pretty non-descript, to a green that slopes from the mounds left to a low area right. The bunker in this picture is well short of the green.



#11, par 4. 410/363

We ross the road and find an unusual hole, without much to look at off the tee. A good drive would be just right of the bunker you can just see on the left. From that point the hole turns to the right and tumbles downhill …


…through a swale and then back up to the plateau green. The approach is still slightly downhill, but not as much as it seems from the fairway, and you see a lot of people misjudge this shot.



#12, par 3. 209/161

A tough par 3 to an elevated green. Short left is a severe bunker, that dominates your view fem the tee. Longer left find a flatter bunker well below the surface of the green. Right of the green is a very deep grass bunker that may be worse than anything on the left side.




#13, par 4. 350/308

After a mundane start to the back side, we now reach  a stretch of more interesting holes. If you’re looking to score, you have to get it done in the next couple holes—the final four are brutal.

Lots of room right off this tee, but here hugging the left side, which is protected by flat bunkers, is advisable. The further right you go, the more obstructed your view by a large mound short right of the green. It’s a bit tempting to stand on this tee and try to rip a drive as far as you can, but in practice that tends to leave an awkward pitch. Better to lay back to a good distance for a full wedge to this green that sits down among the mounds.

Tee view:


From the left side of the fairway:




#14, par 5. 527/488

The first par 5 of the round is not overly long, but plays uphill on the tee ball and back into the prevailing wind. If you still are going to try to get home in two, you need your most precise drive of the day, a very slight draw that runs up the hill between the very deep bunker left and the grass bunkers right. The further you go, the narrower it gets. Where the cart path crosses the fairway and the hill crests between the two large mounds, the fairway is less than 15 yards wide, with major trouble to either side.

Anything left of the fairway, even if it doesn’t find the bunker, falls well below the level of the fairway and leaves an entirely blind second shot. From down there, you can’t see any tree tops, distant mountains, nothing. You have a little more chance from the right, since you’re at least at fairway level, even if there are very large mounds in front of you.



Right of the fairway:


If you choose to lay back to the wider part of the fairway and play it as a three shot hole, there’s nothing tricky. After the fairway narrows considerably in the landing zone,it’s actually very wide in the lay up area. The green is protected by a grass bunker front left, and another well left of the surface.

Looking toward second shot landing area:



We'll conclude with the trademark tough Dye finish later on.

Chris Mavros

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2014, 10:26:35 AM »
Hard to argue that the site and surroundings are less than ideal.  I played here a couple years ago and remember the traffic noise, power lines and power plant being noticeable distractions.  I thought the design was a fun play though; lots of blind shots with lots of mounds and deep bunkers.  I was in town and looking for a quick cheap enjoyable round.  I thought it fit that bill perfectly and is probably a good place for the local college students to practice and play, even if the college team is moving. 

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2014, 10:31:07 AM »
I find this course doesn't really look like a Pete Dye course. The shaping to me looks like someone trying to copy Dye's style. This leads me to believe that this course was done mostly, if not almost all by Perry. Am I right? I feel like I probably am.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Ivan Lipko

Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2014, 11:12:09 AM »
Not a bad course, by any stretch of imagination. The conditioning is nice, the only gripe being the ugliness of the site (obiously). I have played many courses that are worse than this one in my life (probably negative on the D-Scale).

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2014, 12:05:00 PM »
I believe at the time Tom D. was using a   -4 to 10 scale   :)

Karsten is not as bad as a -0-  I think Perry created an interesting layout. It certainly plays difficult from the tips, which is in ASU's favor when it comes to home course advantage. We did a bit of remodeling there and I got to know the layout quite well. Some of the strategy only comes to light when you get past the abrupt mounding and sleepers. The casual player or just-in-town-player will not have time or energy to see how the angles and terrain works to defend scoring.

My frustration there (during the remodel) was trying to convince the golf coaches that No. 7 (the short par-3) should remain….SHORT! We had been asked to increase the tee space and the "obvious" solution in the coaches' minds was adding it to the back. Not only was there no place to add space to the back, but that would make the hole play so much easier for the macho boys and long-hitting girls of ASU's teams. I argued that a hole of 100-120 yards would be far more testing to the visiting teams because competing players would have a club choice of considerable options…various wedges, 1/2, 3/4 shots, etc.  Whereas, the 130-yard shot would be far less difficult as it is most likely a full swing of an obvious club.

John Low:  "The short hole should not be long…"
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2014, 07:02:17 PM »
I find this course doesn't really look like a Pete Dye course. The shaping to me looks like someone trying to copy Dye's style. This leads me to believe that this course was done mostly, if not almost all by Perry. Am I right? I feel like I probably am.

I tend to assume that's always the case when a course is listed as Pete and Perry ...

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2014, 09:21:06 PM »
What a spoiled lot we have become.  ASU is a fun course and better than many!  Good training course, keep your mind on scoring while seeing and hearing distractions around you.  Good use of bad grounds.  A lot of people would like to be able to play there.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

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