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Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
I wouldn't be in favor of it because that would be implying that price is the best thing we have to offer and would attract members accordingly.  Golf clubs aren't a commodity.  It's not like searching for the cheapest gallon of milk in town.  If it is you're wasting a lot of time on the wrong website. :)

I disagree with this. I can find the list price on everything from milk, to a rolls royce to a private jet to a small island. It's only the petty minded who think it adds kudos to have things clouded in secrecy. Some Clubs wise up, some don't and the top 1% don't need to.

Costs are facts and do not enhance or reduce exclusivity in any way. The Club either wishes to receive applications for membership or it doesn't.

You're assuming that everyone equates value with price. Give people the facts, they will either see it as good value or they won't. It is terrible business to lose a potential member/visitor because he or she wrongly "assumes" that the cost is higher than it is.


Ryan,

You disagree that a singular club is not a commodity?  A commodity is a widget.  A 2014 Rolls Royce is the same regardless of which dealer you buy it from.  If a club is missing out on members because they wrongly overestimate the costs of membership that means that 1) that person has likely never played the course with a member 2) probably doesn't know any members well 3) is more concerned about price than anything else.  If price is the most important variable, the vast majority of private clubs are not for you.  Generally speaking you'll find better value at a modestly priced public or semi-private track.  If price is only one of the things that you factor into your "value equation", then you aren't going to find those other key elements out without VISITING THE CLUB AND PLAYING THE COURSE WITH A MEMBER.  If that's the case, then finding out pricing is a trifling matter and you're thesis is out the window.  Sorry, I would have responded sooner, but I was busily crafting a GolfNow special for today for a club that panicked after reading this thread... 8)

Sorry but you clearly come here to write, rather than to read.

It is not my thesis, nor my value equation, it is yours which you advanced earlier in the thread and again have done so above. I disagree. In your rather narrow view, anyone who doesn't know one of your precious members, is ONLY interested in price and will base his golf expenditure sole on what is cheapest. I disagree with this. Not everyone equates value with price.

If a Club only wants members to be introduced by existing members only, that's fine. Their website is purely a vanity exercise and the issue of putting the costs in the public domain via the site is a moot point.

P.S. A Rolls Royce price does indeed vary between dealer.

P.P.S. There is plenty of golf played well between your extreme ends of the spectrum between bargain basement and exclusive memberships. That's just immature hyperbole.

Ryan, I'm under 35 and not a member of any guard so I am curious to know why, if you were interested in joining a particular club, you'd let the lack of pricing on the internet cut off your desire to be a member of the club?

I'm under 35 and manage a golf club.

I never said it would put me off.

I said that if a Club is seeking new members and has a website to promote the Club, it makes little sense to shroud the subscription/joining fee in secrecy. It makes no commercial sense. Give people the facts in a way that is easy for them, or don't bother having a website or pretending you're interested in recruiting new members.

No more, no less.

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Clubs can do whatever they want, relative to sharing rates & other information.  Clubs not in need of new members have no incentive to share anything.

My interest in this discussion is on thinking about ways to stem the current decline in private course membership.  Having been a long time private club member and having to change clubs as I moved around the country, I try to look it from the consumer angle.

If I were running a club that wanted to new members, some things that I would do:

Publish as much information on the club as I could.  Photos, rates, amenities, tournaments, clubhouse, pro shop, lessons, junior golf, food menus & whatever else I could think of.  Publish the club’s mission statement. Extra credit if I could craft a clever message that showed the club to be in good financial health (not sure how I’d do that…)

Publish a clear description of the membership application process and requirements. A contact name, phone & email for more information.

Hold open house days a couple of times a year. Perhaps require a request for invitation, perhaps not.  Include facility and course tours, a chance to meet & talk to members & staff, maybe even a chance to play, or a group lesson from the pro.

The idea is not “click & join” – it’s marketing and information sharing in a new age when people expect easy access to information online.  The joining requirements and process need to change little, if at all.

Not finding the information easily available, I will assume that the club is full or not interested in new members outside of a select network, which is fine.  That is also information to be taken into account when making a selection.



Spot on.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
I've not followed this tread closely, but here's my argument, which seems to me to make sense.  Clubs have real differences.  Clubs have different membership needs.  Clubs have different ideas about how to "market" themselves, if at all.  Some may want to publish prices because they think that will help the club.  Others don't see the need -- don't think it will help their club.  In either case, time may tell whether they were right or wrong.  What I take from this is that it is very hard to read much into the publish vs. not-publish decision made by any particular club.  

Makes sense to me.  Well said.

Adam Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
One, I never said under 35.  I said under 50 is the target.  Most people under 50 that would have an interest in joining a club probably have become familiar with the internet, smart phones, etc and their benefit.

I do agree the clubs I mentioned havent succeeded because they put their rates online.  I thought my post would have been understood to say that it is because they actually embraced, technology, the internet, social media, etc that the world today has moved toward for everything. 

Additionally, regarding the courses I mentioned.... the one with the waiting list that I like is THE most active social media presence in my area.  The one with the "old money" uses nothing except for the home page of the website with the login.  In that business article I mentioned in another post they were the most profitable club in my area of member owned clubs.  I'd be willing to wager a guess they have 100's of thousands of dollars in the bank as well. They don't NEED to put the info out there, and I respect that.  It's like someone mentioned earlier, if you are going to put information out there on your website for all to see, why not put your rates out there.  At the very least, like many do, put a questionnaire or email address on there to obtain information. 

Also, several talk about each club as though they are all full and thriving financially.  I'd say for 75% or more of the private clubs out there in the U.S., that is not the case.  As things have changed over the last couple of decades, in not only this but also in other areas of it, the golf business has been one of the slowest to adapt.  A big part of that is probably due in part to the fact that clubs give junior members basically no say in how the board operates the club, but the old board yearns for the "good ol' days" and tries to recapture that instead of moving forward and trying something new.

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Here's a private golf club model to be discussed.
From a CharlotteObserver.com photo gallery today.

Dan Burrell was one of about seven protesters picketing in front of The Tradition Golf Course on Friday. Lifetime members of the Carolina Trails golf group paid thousands of dollars for a lifetime of fee free golf. When the Carolina Trails owners went into foreclosure and the courses purchased by a new company.... poof..... lifetime memberships would no longer be honored. Seven "members" who lost about $55,000 as a group, some whose memberships would have extended for years. protested at The Tradition Golf Course along Prosperity Church Road Friday april 11, 2014.

Ron Bruzzese (left) and Dan Burrell try to flag down an arriving golfer at the Tradition Golf Course to convince them not to play Friday. Lifetime members of the Carolina Trails golf group paid thousands of dollars for a lifetime of fee free golf. When the Carolina Trails owners went into foreclosure and the courses purchased by a new company.... poof..... lifetime memberships would no longer be honored. Seven "members" who lost about $55,000 as a group, some whose memberships would have extended for years. protested at The Tradition Golf Course along Prosperity Church Road Friday april 11, 2014.

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/04/11/4834314/golfers-protest-carolina-trail.html#storylink=cpy

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
So let me get this straight.  You move to town.  There are two private clubs.  1 is an Art Hills course from the 90s that posts fees online.  The other is an old Tillinghast gem that embodies everything you love about GCA and have been reading about here for the past decade.  They are currently undergoing a sympathetic restoration documented extensively here.  Their website says "for membership inquiries contact Jane Doe".  You guys choose the Hills track cause mommy never taught you to pick up the phone and have an adult conversation.  This has to be the single funniest thing I've read here. 
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Here's a private golf club model to be discussed.
From a CharlotteObserver.com photo gallery today.

Dan Burrell was one of about seven protesters picketing in front of The Tradition Golf Course on Friday. Lifetime members of the Carolina Trails golf group paid thousands of dollars for a lifetime of fee free golf. When the Carolina Trails owners went into foreclosure and the courses purchased by a new company.... poof..... lifetime memberships would no longer be honored. Seven "members" who lost about $55,000 as a group, some whose memberships would have extended for years. protested at The Tradition Golf Course along Prosperity Church Road Friday april 11, 2014.

Ron Bruzzese (left) and Dan Burrell try to flag down an arriving golfer at the Tradition Golf Course to convince them not to play Friday. Lifetime members of the Carolina Trails golf group paid thousands of dollars for a lifetime of fee free golf. When the Carolina Trails owners went into foreclosure and the courses purchased by a new company.... poof..... lifetime memberships would no longer be honored. Seven "members" who lost about $55,000 as a group, some whose memberships would have extended for years. protested at The Tradition Golf Course along Prosperity Church Road Friday april 11, 2014.

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/04/11/4834314/golfers-protest-carolina-trail.html#storylink=cpy

Bruce, I'm not sure I put these courses in the "private club" column.  I'd call them daily fee courses that sold "memberships."  The "memberships," as I understand it, were sold by the ower and/or course manager, Carolina Golf Trails, and would give the player a right to play at any of the CGT courses.  I think there were different "membership" deals, with different rights as to numbers of rounds, but I never really looked at what was involved - no need, in my case.  I thought it was more like purchasing the right to X tee times in advance.  Of course, I do feel sorry for those whose money seems to now have gone down the drain.

Carl
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 05:02:45 PM by Carl Johnson »

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
So let me get this straight.  You move to town.  There are two private clubs.  1 is an Art Hills course from the 90s that posts fees online.  The other is an old Tillinghast gem that embodies everything you love about GCA and have been reading about here for the past decade.  They are currently undergoing a sympathetic restoration documented extensively here.  Their website says "for membership inquiries contact Jane Doe".  You guys choose the Hills track cause mommy never taught you to pick up the phone and have an adult conversation.  This has to be the single funniest thing I've read here.  

It can work, believe it or not.  A fellow member of my club told me that when he moved to our town a number of years ago he wanted to join a local private club.  He didn't know anything about the clubs here, but made a list of what he thought looked like the best options.  Then he picked up the phone.  The first club he called was at that time (unbeknownst to him) THE exclusive old money club in town.  He said he was politely told that they were not looking for new members at that time.  He then called other clubs, and eventually found and joined our club.  He seems to have had no problem with the process.  (By the way, this was pre-website days - he used the phone book.)

I'll add that my own club does not put initiation/dues info on our website, but does invite inquiries.  Of the ten current candidates for membership/wait list this month, three began the process through such an "inquiry," while the others were introduced initially through existing members.  So that approach is viable too, at least in our case.  Public portion of our website: https://www.carolinagolfclub.org/Home.aspx
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 05:03:37 PM by Carl Johnson »

BCowan

So let me get this straight.  You move to town.  There are two private clubs.  1 is an Art Hills course from the 90s that posts fees online.  The other is an old Tillinghast gem that embodies everything you love about GCA and have been reading about here for the past decade.  They are currently undergoing a sympathetic restoration documented extensively here.  Their website says "for membership inquiries contact Jane Doe".  You guys choose the Hills track cause mommy never taught you to pick up the phone and have an adult conversation.  This has to be the single funniest thing I've read here. 

  Having a conversation with a secretary from a Tillie or Ross course is excruciating.  Listing to some old broad tell me all the platitudes as if I've never experience a great course.  Hill's had 6-8 associates working for him at that time, possible Foster did the design....  Prob a lot of tools at the tillie course and I may opt to join the Hills course, but then again we are using extremes as examples which is typical on GCA...  Usually the clubs that are hurting and don't want to post their costs in the 21st century are in debt up to their eye balls, but debt is taught as a good thing in most college economics classes.. 

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
So let me get this straight.  You move to town.  There are two private clubs.  1 is an Art Hills course from the 90s that posts fees online.  The other is an old Tillinghast gem that embodies everything you love about GCA and have been reading about here for the past decade.  They are currently undergoing a sympathetic restoration documented extensively here.  Their website says "for membership inquiries contact Jane Doe".  You guys choose the Hills track cause mommy never taught you to pick up the phone and have an adult conversation.  This has to be the single funniest thing I've read here.  

  Having a conversation with a secretary from a Tillie or Ross course is excruciating.  Listing to some old broad tell me all the platitudes as if I've never experience a great course.  Hill's had 6-8 associates working for him at that time, possible Foster did the design....  Prob a lot of tools at the tillie course and I may opt to join the Hills course, but then again we are using extremes as examples which is typical on GCA...  Usually the clubs that are hurting and don't want to post their costs in the 21st century are in debt up to their eye balls, but debt is taught as a good thing in most college economics classes..  

BCowan, take a look at my post above (just now modified by the addition of the second paragraph) in response to Jud's comment.  Our club is a very nice Ross course.  I really, sincerely, doubt that a conversation with [whoever] at our club, if you were to inquire about a membership, would be excruciating.  I'd suggest you may be overstating it a bit here.

BCowan, also, keep in mind that the "old broad" has no idea who you are.  If she did, she would not get into the platitudes.  Instead, she'd . . . . I'm not going there.

Carl
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 06:48:43 PM by Carl Johnson »

Dave Doxey

  • Karma: +0/-0
So let me get this straight.  You move to town.  There are two private clubs.  1 is an Art Hills course from the 90s that posts fees online.  The other is an old Tillinghast gem that embodies everything you love about GCA and have been reading about here for the past decade.  They are currently undergoing a sympathetic restoration documented extensively here.  Their website says "for membership inquiries contact Jane Doe".  You guys choose the Hills track cause mommy never taught you to pick up the phone and have an adult conversation.  This has to be the single funniest thing I've read here. 

Let's help you 'get it straight'...

You move to a metro area for a job.  There are 27 clubs within reasonable distance from your new house.  You've only ever heard of 2 of them.  You have no idea of who the architects were for most of them.  Your wife would make use of tennis if available. Your kid is interested in competitive swimming.  You may need to join a health club, unless you find a course with  one.  You're trying to get your wife to play golf more seriously and think that lessons might help.  Saving for college tuition requires that you limit club membership expenses to a set amount.

Which clubs are in your price range?  Which have waiting lists?  What are the practice facilities like?

Your friend dropped $50K initiation at a club that went Chapter-11 2 years later, eliminating his membership after being sold at auction.  That will be in the back of your mind when you write that joining check.

People at your new office play a few times per year at various CCFDs. They take turns picking a course & setting it up. One guy is a member at a course & invites you.  It's a dull course.

You've got a few clients who love golf & would gladly accept an invitation to join you for a day and dinner after.

It's March and the season will start soon.  Better start dialing....

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Dave,

It would take about 15 seconds to find out who designed every course in town on Golflink.  If you're more concerned with Country Club amenities than golf then why wouldn't you simply take a season to figure it out, particularly in light of your friend's experience (and why waste time slumming it here?)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
So let me get this straight.  You move to town.  There are two private clubs.  1 is an Art Hills course from the 90s that posts fees online.  The other is an old Tillinghast gem that embodies everything you love about GCA and have been reading about here for the past decade.  They are currently undergoing a sympathetic restoration documented extensively here.  Their website says "for membership inquiries contact Jane Doe".  You guys choose the Hills track cause mommy never taught you to pick up the phone and have an adult conversation.  This has to be the single funniest thing I've read here.  

Let's help you 'get it straight'...

You move to a metro area for a job.  There are 27 clubs within reasonable distance from your new house.  My advice, for whatever you may think it's worth.  You're fortunate to have so many options.  Most would envy you.  You've only ever heard of 2 of them.  You have no idea of who the architects were for most of them.  Focus on the course, not the architect, unless name dropping is important to you.  Your wife would make use of tennis if available. Your kid is interested in competitive swimming.  You may need to join a health club, unless you find a course with  one.  You're trying to get your wife to play golf more seriously and think that lessons might help.  It's not going to be a simple process as you have lots of interests to satisfy.  As I said at the outset, it's great that you have so many options to look at.  Saving for college tuition requires that you limit club membership expenses to a set amount.  I think that we've all (or most all) been there.  I started with a little swim club when my kids were small.  Then we switched to a tennis and swim club.  Finally, when my kids' educations were taken care of, I felt like I could move to a golf club.  So, how much you value where you put you money is a critical decision, your first step.  No big deal if you've got it to burn, but if not, don't be hasty.

Which clubs are in your price range?  Which have waiting lists?  What are the practice facilities like?  With all of the options you have, and all of your interests, I'm with Jud on taking your time.  But I'd say you should take a couple of years, not just one.  And it's just not practice facilities, course architect, etc., but what's the culture of the club?  Cultures can change over time, but what's there now is what's there now.  You need some time in your new city to get that figured out.

Your friend dropped $50K initiation at a club that went Chapter-11 2 years later, eliminating his membership after being sold at auction.  That will be in the back of your mind when you write that joining check.  That's why you don't want to be hasty.  Calm down and take your time.

People at your new office play a few times per year at various CCFDs. They take turns picking a course & setting it up. One guy is a member at a course & invites you.  It's a dull course.  Unless the swimming and tennis (after all, it's not all about you) are superior, forget this club.

You've got a few clients who love golf & would gladly accept an invitation to join you for a day and dinner after.  That can wait.
 
It's March and the season will start soon.  Better start dialing....  Bad idea.  First, check out the websites for what they do or don't tell you.  Then talk to folks, lots of folks.  Be cool.  Try to visit as many of the clubs as you can, one way or another, in the next couple of years.  Then start dialing, if you must.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 08:42:02 PM by Carl Johnson »

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think a good number of clubs don't put their pricing online so that they can get you on the phone and hit you with a sales pitch. I am not saying that this is bad but just the way of the world. Additionally the vetting process from both the club representative and prospective member can play out better than with a string of emails. Even if the pricing is online I can't imagine that any real due diligence is accomplished without a live conversation where both parties can ask what they feel are pertinent questions of the other.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 08:35:31 PM by Tim Martin »

BCowan

So let me get this straight.  You move to town.  There are two private clubs.  1 is an Art Hills course from the 90s that posts fees online.  The other is an old Tillinghast gem that embodies everything you love about GCA and have been reading about here for the past decade.  They are currently undergoing a sympathetic restoration documented extensively here.  Their website says "for membership inquiries contact Jane Doe".  You guys choose the Hills track cause mommy never taught you to pick up the phone and have an adult conversation.  This has to be the single funniest thing I've read here.  

  Having a conversation with a secretary from a Tillie or Ross course is excruciating.  Listing to some old broad tell me all the platitudes as if I've never experience a great course.  Hill's had 6-8 associates working for him at that time, possible Foster did the design....  Prob a lot of tools at the tillie course and I may opt to join the Hills course, but then again we are using extremes as examples which is typical on GCA...  Usually the clubs that are hurting and don't want to post their costs in the 21st century are in debt up to their eye balls, but debt is taught as a good thing in most college economics classes..  

BCowan, take a look at my post above (just now modified by the addition of the second paragraph) in response to Jud's comment.  Our club is a very nice Ross course.  I really, sincerely, doubt that a conversation with [whoever] at our club, if you were to inquire about a membership, would be excruciating.  I'd suggest you may be overstating it a bit here.

BCowan, also, keep in mind that the "old broad" has no idea who you are.  If she did, she would not get into the platitudes.  Instead, she'd . . . . I'm not going there.

Carl

Carl,

   I had dinner tonight with the GF's parents who were in town from Chicago.  I asked them if dtown Chicago restaurants 30-40 years ago used to not put prices of items on the menu.  The said yes, that it was much more prevalent than today.  The old adage if you have to ask how much something costs your cheap.  A Donald Ross course (Non Major track) in a declining burb vs one in a booming burb is going to be drastically different and one is going to be thriving.  

    I went to a course in the A2 area today, a great gem that i played last fall to drop off a flier.  It went under after the 08' crash and was bought by another area course (that sucks) but is in a good burb (school district).  The pro told me that they used to have 400+ members, but the membership got old, I am sure they never did a cost analysis to see if opening the pool was worth it.  They haven't gotten many new members, selling the same ole CC model.  The ole guard and the new ownership doesn't understand the changing demographics.  Many people that I know who were members of golf clubs couldn't justify the FAMILY golf membership model when they were the only ones using the facilities.  The course now has around 150 members and is treading water.  If they used the individual member model, spent 10k advertising I would have no doubt they would gain lots of members.  Guys from 30-55 who just want golf, list your prices ( I don't want to talk to some lady who doesn't play golf to tell me dues that are and a horrible value when I am the only one using the facilities.  Once we get past dues, we can determine how good their burger is, craft beer, practice facilities, and members.  I get it she is doing her job, but private clubs waste my time and their time! (It is principle).  The CC's used to go after the Dr's, lawyers, and so forth and there are only so many of those members that play 5 times a year and write a blank check.  So if someone here would be so kind to tell a solution for a course that is a gem that has 150-190 members what they would do to survive let me know?  We aren't talking about Merion, PV, Kingsley, Double Eagle, or top 100 club, we are talking about gems XYZ CC's that could prosper as Golf Clubs.  The solution of spending 2 years to find a club you like, my god life is short, do you take a year to find the best restaurant?  Many on here would say let the club fail (and yell over supply), instead of admitting the model was flawed.  
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 09:54:21 PM by BCowan »

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
I said earlier, pool your money and get ready to buy something in receivership in a few years.

Unfortunately I think lots of clubs are compelled to cater to the long time members who still come for dinner several evenings per week and who have deep pockets. God bless 'em, but when they're gone, the clubs are going to be in trouble unless they can attract new members. The way to attract new members has to be market-based. Focus on golf above all, not fluff.

Personally I'd prefer a golf club but there isn't one close to me that (a) interests me or (b) I can afford (or that is beating down my door to have me as a member). My wife has no interest in using a club except for the rare trip to the pool and if we want to eat, we go out to a restaurant.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 10:09:59 PM by Brian Hoover »

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
So let me get this straight.  You move to town.  There are two private clubs.  1 is an Art Hills course from the 90s that posts fees online.  The other is an old Tillinghast gem that embodies everything you love about GCA and have been reading about here for the past decade.  They are currently undergoing a sympathetic restoration documented extensively here.  Their website says "for membership inquiries contact Jane Doe".  You guys choose the Hills track cause mommy never taught you to pick up the phone and have an adult conversation.  This has to be the single funniest thing I've read here.  

  Having a conversation with a secretary from a Tillie or Ross course is excruciating.  Listing to some old broad tell me all the platitudes as if I've never experience a great course.  Hill's had 6-8 associates working for him at that time, possible Foster did the design....  Prob a lot of tools at the tillie course and I may opt to join the Hills course, but then again we are using extremes as examples which is typical on GCA...  Usually the clubs that are hurting and don't want to post their costs in the 21st century are in debt up to their eye balls, but debt is taught as a good thing in most college economics classes..  

BCowan, take a look at my post above (just now modified by the addition of the second paragraph) in response to Jud's comment.  Our club is a very nice Ross course.  I really, sincerely, doubt that a conversation with [whoever] at our club, if you were to inquire about a membership, would be excruciating.  I'd suggest you may be overstating it a bit here.

BCowan, also, keep in mind that the "old broad" has no idea who you are.  If she did, she would not get into the platitudes.  Instead, she'd . . . . I'm not going there.

Carl

Carl,

   . . . The solution of spending 2 years to find a club you like, my god life is short (true, so don't screw it up - obviously, how much time and effort you want to put into your search is a personal choice, and mine would be to take my time, but clearly that's not you), do you take a year to find the best restaurant?  Of course not, but you're talking about one night and a relatively small amount of money.  Many on here would say let the club fail (and yell over supply), instead of admitting the model was flawed.  Haven't done a survey, but I'd say that many here, including myself, agree that the old model is now flawed as a single solution.  There's still some demand for the old-style country club, but, I think, plenty of room for pared down models that focus on golf.  Some clubs will hang on to the old and survive, some will fail, some will change and survive, and some will change and fail.  Re: price listing, which seems to be your major complaint - hard to tell - some restaurants will give you oral specials without stating the price.  Simple.  Ask.  It's the smart thing to do.  Club? Ask if not published.  If you don't get the answer you'd like, quietly move on - it's not your kind of place.  Don't  fret about it.  You're in the right, they're wrong.  Let it go.  Life's too short to go around being pissed at things that don't go your way.     

BCowan

''Life's too short to go around being pissed at things that don't go your way.''

Carl,

I am happy with the club I play golf at, life couldn't be better!  Nobody solved the puzzle for the club with 150 members.  What do you have to hide?       

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'm 54 and starting to slow down on my number of rounds. When I'm 64 then 74 it will only get worse. I hope that I have the same sense of loyalty that the old men before me have shown and I continue to pay dues so the younger generations can enjoy golf as I have. I am not positive I will but have never pretended to be anything but a selfish self centered douche. Damn, if I won't how likely is it that the waiting for bankruptcy crowd will.

I hope the same people who wait to join bankrupt clubs buy mold invested foreclosed homes and mud choked flooded cars.

Patrick_Mucci

JakaB

Fear not, the romance with golf doesn't fade with age.

Good years lie ahead for you

Jeff Shelman

  • Karma: +0/-0
I see both sides of putting membership info on the website. And there are pros/cons of both.

I get not putting it out there for public consumption. That leaves club with a little more control over the information. In addition, the club can follow up with a potential candidate for membership, invite them to the club, answer questions. The rub, of course, is that these clubs might miss out on some potential candidates -- people might not call, they might have a preconceived notion that the club is out of reach from a financial standpoint, they might never experience the club.

I also get why a club would put info out there. These clubs probably get members every year who came through the website. I think in some cases it can help prospective members realize that it might not be as expensive as they think or the like. The downside is that some people might make a decision before every stopping out at the club.

My club currently has info about our spring trial membership up on both the website and the Facebook page. There isn't, however, a full listing of charges, etc.

I don't believe the whole thing about competitive reasons to post or not post membership info. I know many clubs gather information in a variety of ways on competitors and they have a pretty good idea of what the landscape is.

Like most things with private clubs, they vary from market to market. What's right for a club in Minneapolis might not work in Miami. And what's happening in Portland might not work in Philly. And, obviously, there's a big difference between what clubs with waiting lists need to do and what clubs that need to recruit 15-20 members every year need to do.

Mike Sweeney


I hope the same people who wait to join bankrupt clubs buy mold invested foreclosed homes and mud choked flooded cars.

So I am guessing you have not embraced the Pope Francis era yet?



 :) ;) :D

Patrick_Mucci

In reflecting on this thread, it occured to me that the plague that's been sweeping America might be at the core of this thread.

What plague you ask ?

The plague known as "the right of entitlement"

WHY should a private club display confidential information to satisfy the requests of strangers ?

Why should a private club provide any information for public consumption ?

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
In reflecting on this thread, it occured to me that the plague that's been sweeping America might be at the core of this thread.

What plague you ask ?

The plague known as "the right of entitlement"

WHY should a private club display confidential information to satisfy the requests of strangers ?

Why should a private club provide any information for public consumption ?
[/quote/

think I'm on your side of this.  But, the answer is "business."  Not the request of stangers, but of customers, if they're needed. Jeff Shelman's said it right, above.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 10:47:10 PM by Carl Johnson »

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat;  That may be part of it but I think there is more.  The suggestion appears to be that private clubs are facing hard times.  This is undoubtedly true because it is true for all golf.  We are overbuilt so there are a certain number of clubs that are struggling.  
The suggestion is that by making its fee schedule public, a club will have a better chance to compete.  Additionally, there appears to be a fear that the reason a club will not go "public" is because it makes special deals for favored applicants.  I suspect that if an individual needs to see the fees in public and is unwilling to make the effort to find out through a personal call, he is unlikely to become a member.  Its not much of an effort for one who is truly interested in making a significant financial and personal commitment.  As to the special deals, if the club is member owned and operated, that practice would be very difficult to maintain.

What I think is missing from a lot of these comments is the lack of feeling for that which makes a club a "club".  The camaraderie and friendships that arise at a club, the fun that is had playing in competitions with fellow members over time and the satisfaction gained working on shared projects are the glue that binds clubs.  Thus the emphasis on dollars and cents and the failure to consider the intangible aspects shows a lack of understanding of the real appeal of a club.  Jackie Burke had a nice section on this aspect in his book.

Candidly, a lot of this discussion strikes me as rationalizations.  Historically, other than people with old money, people joined clubs in their late 30's to early 50's after they had their feet on the ground in their careers and had a sense of where they stood economically and building their families.  That hasn't changed and we will find out how many of those entering into these years are interested in club life.  The economy will play a role.  But a core of people will enjoy our game and others will want club life.  Perhaps there will be a movement toward other forms of clubs.  Of course many muni's have their own form by establishing Men's and Women's Associations which hold events on the local course.  Before I was ready to join my club, that is how I played my golf.

Finally, the amount of disinformation passed around to try and make a point is pretty bad. For example, Ben, if you want to tell me that restaurants in Chicago gave out menus without prices and sold food 30 to 40 years ago, you will have to name the restaurants and not rely on "parents of a friend".  Perhaps some establishments retained a sexist practice of keeping prices from the fairer sex, but those were mostly clubs.  How do I know?  39 years ago I returned To Chicago from Cambridge after finishing law school and I didn't cook much so I spent a lot of time in restaurants on my own and chasing girls.  30 years ago I still lived in the metropolitan area and had started my family and I continue to live here.  I can't remember a single instance where I didn't see the prices.

Moreover, I am active in club administration for the entire Chicago District and the characterization of the admission process by the critics in this thread is not reflective of the situation in Chicago except that most clubs don't post their fee schedule.  you still have to ask.  For most member owned clubs, you still have to be sponsored and interviewed.  that's because the members want to know who they are admitting; its part of keeping the club friendly.  But if the economics get tough enough, some will change.  Regardless, I believe a significant number of clubs and courses will fold.  Overbuilding in a bubble results in problems.  The sad part for architecture buffs is that we can't choose the courses that will fail.

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