[Ken Moum]

After three episodes, max, I'd gotten in his head.  Mr. Dye would be proud of me for that.

And that, folks, is why good players get pissed off about stuff like this, and centerline bunkers, and...

All I can say is Thank God for Pete Dye and every golf course architect he's influenced.

Oh,  and on behalf of my wife, I'll say thanks for Alice as well. Very time we go somewhere that Haas forward tees around 5,000 yards, we think of her.

K

[ed_getka]

I am curious to know if those who have played Tom's course at stream song think the challenge is putting on the greens or getting your approach shot to the proper portion  of the greens? I commented years ago  when I played Ballyneal that I felt you probably needed to be a 5 handicap to be successful there. I could generally discern where I needed to get my approach shots after a couple of rounds, but as a 10 handicap I didn't have enough game to get to where I wanted to go (yes I played the proper tees).  I am wondering if the same thing is going on at Streamsong?
   I don't consider it a negative by the way. One would certainly improve their golf game over time under those conditions. However, I can see why a resort/one round golfer wouldn't care for that type of course.

[Bryan Izatt]

Ed,

I think it is both.

On many of the greens the "right place" can be a relatively small area.  Even when I know the area I should be trying to get too, my game is imperfect enough to often not let me get there.  SSB (as does SSR) seduces players like me into thinking that they can score well because you can drive it almost anywhere and still hit the green in regulation because the greens are quite large.  But, if you are in the wrong place then 3 putts are pretty likely.

As an example in a recent PF match, on the 2nd hole, I was under 100 yards from the pin, which was on the shallow left portion of the green between a cavernous front bunker and a flatter one in the back.  The opponents were in trouble in the front bunker, so I decided to play out right to the centre of the green to try and ensure a 2 putt par.  I hit a beautiful low spinning shot that I managed unintentionally to turn over directly at the flag.  In the air it was perfect - if unintended.  Sadly it hit the back of the front bunker and bounded over the green into the back bunker.  A good bunker shot left me a 10 footer that I promptly missed.  Even modest 10 foot putts have breaks - some subtle, some not.  Even being in the "right place" doesn't guarantee an easy straight putt. So, I had the strategy right but the execution failed.

As another example, I hit the 3rd green in regulation and was on the same front lower tier as the pin.  Walking up I thought this was good because I generally have found this green hard to hit and secondarily I thought I was in the "right place" being on the same tier as the pin.  Sadly it turned out I was on the left side and the pin was on the right side.  To get anywhere near the hole I had to putt up and around the slope to the next tier up - quite a boomerang line.  Three putts ensued even tough I was almost in the "right place".

As for putting the greens, clearly there are dramatic and often abrupt contours on many of the greens.  If you are 30 or 40 or 50 or more feet away you're going to have to be a darn good green reader and lag putter to get within 5 feet.  The contours, the grain, the wind and the green speeds are conspiring against you.  Even when you get to 5 to 10 feet it isn't easy given the subtleties in the greens.  Nothing is flat and subtle breaks are probably in some ways harder to read than the big undulations.

I have had some good scoring rounds there when by skill or chance I get to a part of the green where I can handle the putting. I've never had an abnormally high score because even when I three-putt a lot I'm usually getting to the green or around it in regulation.  I think the course from tee to green is fairly friendly.  Par is protected (if it needs to be) at the green.

If you don't get frustrated by that setup and enjoy the challenges at the green you can have fun.   

[Jim Franklin]

I'd be curious to know if his 3 putts were the result of the greens in general, or more of what Tom was saying, being in the wrong places.

Too often, golfers assume that wide fairways and big greens mean you can hit it anywhere - this is not true if the greens are well thought out, in my limited experience.

George:

They're the result of a guy who thinks he is playing to his strengths, but is actually playing to his weaknesses.

If he is really a great player, on most of these holes he might have been better off [with the benefit of hindsight] not going for the green, and instead playing to a spot where he had more chance to get up and down for birdie:  whether that was 100 yards back in the fairway, or off to one side of the green.  

But he wasn't playing for birdies; he hoped he would get lucky and wind up with a couple of reasonable putts for eagle, to balance out a couple of possible three-putts.  And he left himself in positions where he either had an "impossible" two putt, or probably a couple of times, where I would have two-putted but he was too mad to convert.  After three episodes, max, I'd gotten in his head.  Mr. Dye would be proud of me for that.

This is a classic. I told him the same thing, that you were in his head. He scoffed. I drove #13 and made the putt which made my boy even more upset. As I stated, I loved the greens.

[Lyne Morrison]

Interesting discussion.
Am wondering for reference purposes how the contours of these greens compare to Barnbougle?
Thanks, Lyne

[Tom_Doak]

Interesting discussion.
Am wondering for reference purposes how the contours of these greens compare to Barnbougle?
Thanks, Lyne

Lyne:

The contours are different than Barnbougle.  The greens tend to sit up a bit more at Streamsong, as opposed to Barnbougle where so many are set in hollows in the dunes.  The hollows give you more possibilities to putt at the hole on multiple lines, than Streamsong generally does ... although I've already seen several times in my few rounds at Streamsong where someone took a line for the putt that was completely different than what I would have tried.

[JESII]

I'm sorry Jim, but this is such a weak argument that I waited a bunch of days for some meaningful comment in the thread to link on to...hasn't happened yet...

I haven't been to Streamsong, or spoken directly to anybody who has so if this thread is truly limited to those experiences then disregard the rest...but I suspect it's a follow on to the common argument about better players expecting everything to go their way and complaining more than average players when it doesn't.

Other than the 1500 maniacs (of all handicaps) that frequent this site the distribution of people bitching about Tom Doak greens, Pete Dye bunkers or whatever else is spread evenly across the population distribution of players...I guarantee it!



Just prove me wrong...

[Tom_Doak]

I'm sorry Jim, but this is such a weak argument that I waited a bunch of days for some meaningful comment in the thread to link on to...hasn't happened yet...

I haven't been to Streamsong, or spoken directly to anybody who has so if this thread is truly limited to those experiences then disregard the rest...but I suspect it's a follow on to the common argument about better players expecting everything to go their way and complaining more than average players when it doesn't.

Other than the 1500 maniacs (of all handicaps) that frequent this site the distribution of people bitching about Tom Doak greens, Pete Dye bunkers or whatever else is spread evenly across the population distribution of players...I guarantee it!



Just prove me wrong...

Jim:

I'm sure you're right, but the complaints take on a different tone when the guy is three-putting for PAR.

[JESII]

5 times!!!

I'd put that on the wall Tom...priceless.

[Jim Nugent]

Jim:

I'm sure you're right, but the complaints take on a different tone when the guy is three-putting for PAR.

Couldn't that happen a lot at TOC as well? 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom:

You're giving the average retail golfer a lot of credit. 

From the sounds of it, there's a group of guys who would throw in the towel after one play, as opposed to ponying up for Don't know if that was ever a conversation you had with the Mosaic folks, but its one way to keep folks coming back, although you might not get all of them.

Sven

Is it really the greens, or is it that the PD, SS, Ballyneal, Sand Hills, etc. are really bucket list courses that most golfers only plan to play once in their lives anyway (or can afford to play at best 2/3 of these and other famous courses once in their lives?)

I would bet the Mosaic business plan figures on getting 1% of 25M golfers (250K) for two rounds each over a lifetime. Maybe, 1% of those, or 2500 golfers, will be repeat players once a year.  Maybe another 2500 casual golfers a year find it as part of some corporate outing, who knows.

Interesting what that might imply for the design.....TD is probably right to design green contours that they simply don't see at home, if the main goal is a memorable trip.  I would have to think that concept through a bit!

[jeffwarne]

I'm sorry Jim, but this is such a weak argument that I waited a bunch of days for some meaningful comment in the thread to link on to...hasn't happened yet...

I haven't been to Streamsong, or spoken directly to anybody who has so if this thread is truly limited to those experiences then disregard the rest...but I suspect it's a follow on to the common argument about better players expecting everything to go their way and complaining more than average players when it doesn't.

Other than the 1500 maniacs (of all handicaps) that frequent this site the distribution of people bitching about Tom Doak greens, Pete Dye bunkers or whatever else is spread evenly across the population distribution of players...I guarantee it!



Just prove me wrong...

Jim:

I'm sure you're right, but the complaints take on a different tone when the guy is three-putting for PAR.

If the greens had less interest/contour, the same guy would bash the course because he had 5 two putt birdies
If you hit it 50-60 feet away and you're in a bunker, you accept not getting up and down in two, or three.
Just a different challenge

[Tom_Doak]

I would bet the Mosaic business plan figures on getting 1% of 25M golfers (250K) for two rounds each over a lifetime. Maybe, 1% of those, or 2500 golfers, will be repeat players once a year.  Maybe another 2500 casual golfers a year find it as part of some corporate outing, who knows.

Interesting what that might imply for the design.....TD is probably right to design green contours that they simply don't see at home, if the main goal is a memorable trip.  I would have to think that concept through a bit!

I have never seen Mosaic's business plan, but since they've compared it to Bandon Dunes, I think it's fair to say your assumptions on this are wrong.  Repeat business is key to the success of these places, so it's essential to give visitors something they want to come see again ... which also implies something they aren't going to see at home, or at competing properties.

Most of the people I've talked to about Streamsong have made more than one visit, already.  And lots of people go back to Bandon every year, or every couple of years ... way more than 1%.

[SL_Solow]

Tom,  Appropos of Jeff's comment, and having played Streamsong, is the approach to these greens significantly different than those at Lost Dunes?  There is plenty going on there at a private members course.  so it appears that the philosophy resulting in your green designs is not dictated by the nature of the clientele.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,  Appropos of Jeff's comment, and having played Streamsong, is the approach to these greens significantly different than those at Lost Dunes?  There is plenty going on there at a private members course.  so it appears that the philosophy resulting in your green designs is not dictated by the nature of the clientele.

Shel:

I would say the greens at Streamsong aren't quite as difficult (or complicated) as the greens at Lost Dunes, but they're both in the upper reaches of the difficulty scale.

My philosophy regarding greens design is not exactly the same from course to course, but it's not like that article Jack Nicklaus did for GOLF Magazine 25 years ago, where he showed that they would build three completely different courses depending on the use as a private club, resort, or daily fee course.  I just don't think that golfers are that different in what they find fun, based on their demographics.  Yes, the greens are probably always going to be a feature of my courses ... but sometimes they will be more subdued than others, depending on the site and the CLIENT and his tastes, and to a lesser extent the clientele. 

For example:

Dismal River and Ballyneal have very different philosophies about greens contours, because I wanted to make sure they were very different in character from one another. 

The Legends (Heathland) and Common Ground have relatively subdued greens compared to the ones you're been talking about, but they're not "plain" ... The Legends has very large greens [like Streamsong or Old Mac].

Pacific Dunes has smaller greens with more going on at the edges, because Mr. Keiser preferred that to having more contour IN the greens.

[Lyne Morrison]

Interesting discussion.
Am wondering for reference purposes how the contours of these greens compare to Barnbougle?
Thanks, Lyne

Lyne:

The contours are different than Barnbougle.  The greens tend to sit up a bit more at Streamsong, as opposed to Barnbougle where so many are set in hollows in the dunes.  The hollows give you more possibilities to putt at the hole on multiple lines, than Streamsong generally does ... although I've already seen several times in my few rounds at Streamsong where someone took a line for the putt that was completely different than what I would have tried.


Thanks Tom

[Steve Lang]

Jim:

I'm sure you're right, but the complaints take on a different tone when the guy is three-putting for PAR.

Couldn't that happen a lot at TOC as well? 

I did that at TOC on both par 5's back in 1996, while shooting a charmed 77...  was I good? .. a bit, more cautious .. if possible, don't challenge anything with a name.. except Hell Bunker

why do so many golfers think they'er good, when none would ever pay them to play?

[Lyne Morrison]

Something that has struck me when reading about this course in particular is the pervading sense of entitlement. There is a sense that a golfer who, having travelled some distance and paid a premium fee - and carrying a healthy regard for his game - feels 'entitled' to birdies - 'entitled' to reward and acknowledgment for his investment and prowess.

Should a golfer be 'guaranteed' a 100% positive experience every time he or she tees up?

What does it say about the game when golfers 'expect' a simple and straightforward putt for birdie?

Given that golfer expectations vary across the globe, I also wonder if there is a cultural question at play here. For example, would a Scot view this course through a different lens ?

Lyne

[ed_getka]

I'm sorry Jim, but this is such a weak argument that I waited a bunch of days for some meaningful comment in the thread to link on to...hasn't happened yet...

I haven't been to Streamsong, or spoken directly to anybody who has so if this thread is truly limited to those experiences then disregard the rest...but I suspect it's a follow on to the common argument about better players expecting everything to go their way and complaining more than average players when it doesn't.

Other than the 1500 maniacs (of all handicaps) that frequent this site the distribution of people bitching about Tom Doak greens, Pete Dye bunkers or whatever else is spread evenly across the population distribution of players...I guarantee it!



Just prove me wrong...

Jim:

I'm sure you're right, but the complaints take on a different tone when the guy is three-putting for PAR.

If the greens had less interest/contour, the same guy would bash the course because he had 5 two putt birdies
If you hit it 50-60 feet away and you're in a bunker, you accept not getting up and down in two, or three.
Just a different challenge

Jeff brings up a great point. As I came back to see how this thread was evolving tonight I had the same thought. If a golfer missed his target and was in a bunker, or water, or deep rough he would accept that he didn't pull off the required shot. Since he is on the green he feels entitled to two putt.
It reminds me of when I played French Lick many years ago. There are many greens with "buried elephants" and you know if you are on the wrong side of the elephant you are unlikely to 2 putt. Some would call that goofy golf, but I look at it as a challenge to hit a good approach shot to the proper side of the green or even off the green if that gives you the better opportunity to get in the hole in fewer strokes.

[Steve Lang]

   skills cannot trump the "rub-of-the-green"

[Jeff_Brauer]

Lynn,

I think golfers just want to shoot within 5 of their average score, and would expect a Streamsong or similar resort to put them in the plus 5 category.  After that, it gets pretty miserable no matter what your level of play.  And, I don't think anyone feels entitled to birdies, and there are no guarantees, but many do like straightforward, which is the real point of this discussion.

And the golfer can surely rationalize things like wind raising it a bit further, and maybe challenge like dry fairways in summer or fast greens, but for most, there is a mental upper limit.

Not sure how Scots, Japanese, or anyone else might view any particular course.  That's why its always interesting to have the international perspectives here.

[Bill Brightly]

I really think the staff has to give more consideration to each day's pin positions on the Blue based upon the expected wind. (Or significantly adjust the tees like they do at Bandon for winter or summer winds.) I've been there twice, three rounds on the Blue in March, 2013 and three this past March. I seemed to have two played in two entirely different winds. For example, in 2013 I could carry the cross bunkers on 17 with my second shot. In 2014 that was never an option, despite some very good drives. A front right pin position close to the drop off is fair if I'm downwind with a short iron approach, but makes no sense when the field is playing short of the cross bunkers and has a 180-200 approach into the wind.

I don't mind occasional tough pins when a decent player can be expected to reach the green with a mid iron or less, but when I need rescue club  or more, it becomes tedious and ceases to be fun. For example, placing the pin on the right just below the slope on Hole 4 is fine if the hole is downwind. But  into a two club wind I hit a good drive and really good 4 rescue to the left/middle of the green, and had no chance to two putt. I needed to be 10 feet shorter with my approach, but also needed to carry a steep uphill rise and a bunker. Into the wind, the pin needs to be somewhere on the left, IMO. You can't tuck the pin under that ridge when the hole plays into the wind. It's one thing to punish me for a slightly misdirected short iron. But not a rescue club or wood, that is just piling on.

Perhaps the superintendent and staff need time to learn the course, learn when to use certain hole locations, and when these spots must be avoided based upon the wind.

[Jim Nugent]

I think golfers just want to shoot within 5 of their average score, and would expect a Streamsong or similar resort to put them in the plus 5 category.  After that, it gets pretty miserable no matter what your level of play.  

In theory, the slope and course ratings should give a measure of that.  At SS Blue, I would think most bogey golfers would play from the silver tees.  6285 yards, par 72.  Course rating is 69.7.  Slope is 123.  If I did the arithmetic right, bogey rating is 92.5.  Pretty much in that five shot range you gave. 

A different story from the tips.  Again assuming my arithmetic is accurate, bogey rating there is about 98.4.  Tough, but to be expected for an average golfer on a 7400 yard course with water. 

Course ratings at SS Blue tip out at 74.1.  Combined with the bogey/slope ratings, doesn't seem like the raters consider the course frustratingly difficult. 

[Sean_A]

No question a degree of entitlement exists for two putting.  I spose the same thing exists for centreline hazards; many golfers expect to be on the short stuff if they split the corridor. 

On the other side of the coin, I am not convinced 18 rollercoaster greens is ideal.  Its too easy to face the same sort of putts if one is out of position 6 times on a course of roller coasters.  Thats my biggest complaint about Pinehurst - the recoveries are too similar because the edges of most greens are similar. 

Ciao

[Ryan Coles]

Lynn,

I think golfers just want to shoot within 5 of their average score, and would expect a Streamsong or similar resort to put them in the plus 5 category.  After that, it gets pretty miserable no matter what your level of play.  And, I don't think anyone feels entitled to birdies, and there are no guarantees, but many do like straightforward, which is the real point of this discussion.

And the golfer can surely rationalize things like wind raising it a bit further, and maybe challenge like dry fairways in summer or fast greens, but for most, there is a mental upper limit.

Not sure how Scots, Japanese, or anyone else might view any particular course.  That's why its always interesting to have the international perspectives here.

In addition to nationality, it is interesting to see different reactions depending on the architect.

If the Castle Course greens had been in the US would they been seen as ridiculous?

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