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Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2014, 08:23:45 AM »
I've been told on another thread that my participation here, and especially on threads about my own work, discourages frank and honest discussion about those courses.

I know that there are a handful of posters (and presumably more lurkers who don't participate in the forum) who agree with this.  They're the guys who call out anyone who says something positive about my courses as a "butt boy", and try to chill one side of the discussion themselves.  I've tended just to dismiss their complaints, because it seems personal and I don't understand what's behind it.

However, if there were 25 or 50 regular posters who felt that my presence and participation stifles frank and honest discussion, I would consider that much differently, and alter how I participate on the site.  So, please let me know.  And those who don't feel this is the case, do not need to reassure me or defend me against what the others post.  It's better if you stay out of the way, otherwise you'll only be contributing more evidence to their side of the argument, whether it's valid or not.  Thanks.


Actually I would say it's your courses that discourage frank and honest discussion. They can be hard to figure out and as a result the criticism can be misplaced. It doesn't take many misfires to be pointed out before someone starts self-censoring. Maybe that's not a bad thing overall but undoubtedly a good nugget or three gets thrown out with the dross.

That said, the board generally should be *more* critical (in an analytical sense) of your courses than those of just about any other contemporary designers, because:
a) you are working on top-1% sites;
b) the benchmark comparison set is the world's tippy-top courses.

I am not sure we live up to that but I don't think it has much to do with your participation.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2014, 08:46:14 AM »

That said, the board generally should be *more* critical (in an analytical sense) of your courses than those of just about any other contemporary designers, because:
a) you are working on top-1% sites;
b) the benchmark comparison set is the world's tippy-top courses.

I am not sure we live up to that but I don't think it has much to do with your participation.

I agree with your first point. 

I sort of regret that the benchmark comparison is so high, though.  When we do a project like Common Ground, on something less than a great site, it's instantly dismissed because it is not a 1% site and we did not try to take on Pine Valley.  I anticipate other similar projects in years to come -- I've had more than my share of world-class sites already, and don't expect that there will continue to be a steady stream of them -- and it would be nice for them to be judged on what they are.

I jumped into this whole debate in part because I agree with your last point.  There is a lot of opinion tossed around here, and plenty of beating dead horses, but not so much analysis or new thought.  I really wanted to find out if somehow I'm getting in the way of that.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #52 on: March 28, 2014, 09:14:17 AM »
Tom,

Your participation is a really interesting phenomenon.  There is one aspect of the hero worship - not only are you a top architect today, and willing to engage the great unwashed. This causes some problems.  In fact, I recall my early days here when so many were blasted for unknowingly being Fazio or JN fans, just because media told them so.  Never been sure that Doak worship hasn't gone through similar, yet different, evolution here, with the treehouse gladly going along.

On the greater plus side, you are one of the best writers, able to articulate your thoughts on design concisely. From RTJ on, most signature designers talked of golf design in confusing tones, often implying that they get their ideas from some kind of Moses coming down with a tablet from the mountain.  At best, they really don't articulate at all, using a whole lot of words to say a bunch of nothing.  You know what I mean, starting with the phrase, "Best piece of golf ground I have ever seen" and working on to proclamations of great strategery without really telling us why.  I am convinced most of them couldn't really tell us what strategy was, because they don't really fully know what it is themselves.  For the most part, they do what their mentors did.  You obviously did not.

To be honest, I only participate because my father once told me that if "you can't express your idea in less than 3 sentences, its probably not a good idea.  And, taking another 3+ sentences to explain it, really doesn't make it any better an idea."  A dozen years in, I am still trying to get there, as this post amply demonstrates.  
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #53 on: March 28, 2014, 09:52:43 AM »
One of my prized possessons is my Confidential Guide which Tom signed as follows at the 5th Major two years ago:  "To Mike Hendren, thanks for keeping my reputation in check on GCA.com."   

Leave it to Barney to be the voice of reason here. 

As for honest discussion, I've thankfully been denied access to another website based upon my use of the term "apologist" in discussing the proponents of Rustic Canyon - I thought the term had a favorabe connotation.   Not only that but I was asked not to disclose that.  Oops.

We're all just grown men behaving badly.  Isn't it a blast!

Bogey

Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tom Allen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chilling Frank and Honest Discussion
« Reply #54 on: March 28, 2014, 09:53:27 AM »
Tom,

The site is much better with the participation of people in the business, yourself included. I don't say that to defend you, it is just a fact.

. . . I don't think that means people in the business shouldn't participate here. That would be a real loss.

This^

Jamie Pyper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #55 on: March 28, 2014, 10:22:00 AM »
Tom;
I suppose I qualify as your definition of a "lurker",  who seldom contributes, yet am a religious fanatic about this site.
All of us are passionate about golf course architecture, the history behind its evolution and concerns on the future of this great game.
Every day I check out the topics of discussion and scroll down the list of posters. I almost know personalities by their name recognition. When I reach a name like yours, I stop and read the complete content, because you are on my "A' list of posters, along with the likes of Don, Mike Young, Ian Andrew and all the other "professionals" who are in the trenches making real life decisions daily while carving out a living from creating and improving our playing fields.  Your contributions do indeed stifle or even stop frank discussion because you can cut to the chase and answer the question posed with behind the scene knowledge. You and your work have been challenged many times on this site, but constructive feedback is part of growing a successful career. You are an industry leader and this site is blessed with having you and all the other " professionals" openly contribute, for our collective benefit.  
  
I would encourage continued contributions from any owner/operator for the same reason. Your experiences trump all the armchair critics.  Stifle at will!

Pete Blaisdell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #56 on: March 28, 2014, 10:25:25 AM »
Tom

   In my opinion, no.
' Golf courses are like wives and the prom queen doesn't always make for the best wife "

Peter Pallotta

Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #57 on: March 28, 2014, 10:42:35 AM »
Tim W - I've been thinking about what you wrote. You may be right that we lose something if folks aren't candid. But it seems to me that those who bring the most to the table are the very ones who can least afford to be candid. Meanwhile, for someone like me: if I focus on the positive, posts/threads apparently become tasteless pablum; while if I (and other non professionals) took to routinely offering pointed criticism and naming names, I'd be surprised if the professionals around here would stay engaged for very long.

The reality that this is a truly (and increasingly) public site, and what that means for our discussions day in and day out, is finally sinking in for me; and I think it's sinking in collectively too. To paraphrase Sidney Falco's line to JJ Hunsecker in "Sweet Smell of Success": We're blind, Mr. Magoo. This is the crossroads for us.

Peter


« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 10:54:16 AM by PPallotta »

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2014, 10:49:29 AM »
I would think that if an architect posts here people on this board might be more sympathetic to their work for the following reasons:

1. You build a somewhat personal relationship with the architect, which makes it more difficult to be objective.

2. Since you are here to defend your principles and ideas behind golf holes you are able to make the posters here understand your reasoning behind your decisions. An architect who doesn't post here doesn't have that same luxury. If say, Tom Fazio was here he could explain his thought process and why a hole turned out the way it did. That kind of transparency wins people over. Since the posters do not have that relationship with Tom Fazio they are basically just guessing as to why a hole plays the way it does.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2014, 10:56:42 AM »
Tim W - I've been thinking about what you wrote. You may be right that we lose something if folks aren't candid. But it seems to me that those who bring the most to the table are the very ones who can least afford to be candid.


Obviously, I do not agree with this.  In general, I wish people would think of what they have to gain, instead of what they have to lose.  Matt's point #2 above is an example.

The one hesitation I have in posting is that regardless of how much time I spend on this board, my golf holes have to stand on their own merits.  If I try to explain them all to you in detail, either before the course opens or after it's been around a bit, that sort of defeats the purpose of setting up the problems in the first place.  This is why I am ambivalent about participating in the yardage books for my courses -- it is frustrating to see them describe something wrong when I don't participate, but what's the point of the puzzle if you are peeking at the answer the whole time?  [See:  Castle Stuart yardage book, Mark Parsinen.]


Don_Mahaffey

Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2014, 11:04:46 AM »
If Tom's participation here discourages anyone from honestly discussing his work, then IMO they don't know Tom very well.




PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #61 on: March 28, 2014, 11:09:57 AM »
Tom Doak,

As evidenced by the thread below from 2006, it's pretty obvious that you don't discourage, but outwardly encourage, honest discussion of your work.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,24525.0/wap2.html
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 01:24:02 PM by PCraig »
H.P.S.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2014, 11:12:53 AM »
If Tom's participation here discourages anyone from honestly discussing his work, then IMO they don't know Tom very well.
Of the 1500 posters on here, how many do you think know Tom Doak very well?  I don't care what your opinion is of whether I know him well or not, I know I don't and, like the majority of people on here and I will behave towrads him as I behave towards all those others here I don't know well.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2014, 11:16:23 AM »

Of course it does.  But your participation in this DG offsets whatever is lost as a result many times over.

If this thread is prompted by introspection, you may wish to ponder if you are you prone to being defensively hostile.  Are you closed-minded?  If the answer to both is NO, I am sure you have made a mental note of those whose opinions you value and you can always probe deeper by IM or email.

You are right about tone and humor not being conveyed accurately over the internet.  But if it is a choice between content and political correctness, I am a substance guy all the way

And if you don't defend your work, who is going to?  BTW, I had no issues at all with your thread asking the DG to rate your work.  You appear to be seeking different consumer feedback than your competitors who seem to rely more on the marketplace.  The relevance of the opinions of those who reply has to be assessed, after all talk is cheap, money speaks (there is some research out there on favorable product feedback not necessarily translating into pulling the item off the store shelf).

To Chris Johnston-

Disregard John K's advice.  Let her rip.  You have every right to defend your investment.  If your worst sin is that you welcome folks who love fun, high quality golf in an extraordinary environment to Dismal River, you have nothing to fear in the afterlife.

The perspectives you have as an owner/operator are extremely important to this site which appears to have some antipathy to commerce and the creation of value.  Ironically, golf courses don't build themselves.  They are not sustained by thin air.  Capital and profits are necessary.  Speak the truth to ignorance.  I know that it invites the occasional pot shots and doesn't make you all that popular, but if you don't, who will?

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #64 on: March 28, 2014, 11:20:31 AM »
Mark,
I have no idea how many people know Tom personally, and I wasn't being critical of anyone.

I think too many people assign personality traits to people they don't know, especially "famous" people like Tom.

As I see it, if you go back and research his participation here, and you take what he writes at face value and not assign some sort of negative bias to his words, then you see he has always been upfront and candid.

He was that way with me before I ever met him and he is that way now that I've spent some time with him.

There is not a lot to figure out here.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #65 on: March 28, 2014, 11:29:17 AM »
I think too many people assign personality traits to people they don't know, especially "famous" people like Tom.
 

Where people really get in trouble is when they assign MOTIVATIONS to people they don't know.  And I know that from experience on both sides of the issue.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #66 on: March 28, 2014, 12:05:24 PM »
I can tend to get confused on such matters, and in ways that I'm also confused about. Let me take a long way around to asking a question:

If I post: "From my one play, I think Crystal Down is nowhere near a '10' architecturally, and the experience of playing it as it's currently presented and maintained is even more a let-down, with the famed Par 4s no more strategic or challenging (save for the greens) than hundreds of others I've played before, and with the Par 5 8th hole the only truly memorable one of the golf course".

Now, if I posted that, is that 'acceptable'? And by acceptable I only mean "will it survive being purged along with the entire thread that contains it'? I think it certainly is. But if I posted it I would expect that a large % of participants here would not only disagree with the post but dismiss it out of hand and not ever give it a second thought, considering the source (me). Another large % would take the time to post, but only to say, essentially, "You're an idiot, and completely wrong about that (or "I disagree, and maybe you should play it more than once before spouting off" or "How many other great courses have you played to be able to compare it to other '10s'"). And finally a small % might say "Yeah, maybe, but it's not as black and white as you say".  And for me ALL of those would be legitimate and acceptable responses/reactions.  

Okay, so say I post instead: "I've never played Dismal River, but on my card I had the match all square after 10 holes, and what my eyes tell me is that the White has been significantly under-rated, and that it contains a series of wonderful golf holes and that it should be allowed to 'be what it is' for years to come; and that the Red has been elevated in its (already lofty) stature in part because it's being compared to a straw-man version of White, and that while no doubt it is elegantly routed and absolutely sound architecturally, it does not blow the White out of the water by any means, and I believe that this assessment is one that will be shared by more and more people in the years to come".

If I posted that, I believe that it too would be acceptable (see above) and that many posters would dismiss it (and me) out of hand, and that many others would think me an idiot, and that others would disagree strongly ('you've never played it' or ‘I was there’ or ‘wait until the red matures' or ‘Oh, I know what you’re trying to do”) and that a few would engage, agreeing in part and disagreeing in part but willing to debate. And again, ALL those responses/reactions would be legitimate and acceptable (though the questioning of motives really annoys me).

So, if that’s true: then why have we had a half dozen new threads in the least two days since the DR thread went belly up? Why all the meta-level threads discussing the ways that we discuss discussion? Why all the self reflection about about what supports/chills discussion and what is legitimate and frank discourse around here?  

If all I wrote above is basically accurate/correct (in terms of the likely responses, all of which are legitimate), then what is it that we’re actually TALKING ABOUT and trying to understand in this and other threads? As I say, I’m now confused.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 12:23:28 PM by PPallotta »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #67 on: March 28, 2014, 12:29:48 PM »
Because when you meet a man who constantly speaks about how much he loves his wife you try to figure out who else he is screwing.  It's just not natural for men to openly discuss something that they love.  It makes everyone uncomfortable.  The easiest thing to do is to assume that they are either liars or have ulterior motives.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #68 on: March 28, 2014, 12:34:27 PM »

Because when you meet a man who constantly speaks about how much he loves his wife you try to figure out who else he is screwing.  It's just not natural for men to openly discuss something that they love.  It makes everyone uncomfortable.  The easiest thing to do is to assume that they are either liars or have ulterior motives.


It scares me that there's someone out there as misanthropic as I am.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #69 on: March 28, 2014, 12:44:27 PM »
Tom,

You have never gotten access to any courses for me, so I have no qualms about criticizing your courses.

Now about those blind bunkers from the tee on the right of 13 at PD. They only penalize the hacks like me, so what were you thinking when they were created? ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #70 on: March 28, 2014, 12:52:53 PM »
It's just not natural for men to openly discuss something that they love.  It makes everyone uncomfortable.  The easiest thing to do is to assume that they are either liars or have ulterior motives.

John,

I try to give thanks for something every day.

Thanks for supplying today's something.

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Peter Pallotta

Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2014, 01:02:34 PM »
It's true JK - the easiest thing to do is to assume the worst.

Good post, though.

Still confused, however. I really don't understand what we seem to be trying to understand/say.

Peter

Frank Giordano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #72 on: March 28, 2014, 01:38:51 PM »
The job for which the architect is employed is chiefly a matter between him or her and the client.  The main work the architect does is design the course.  The business of the player or analyst or rater is to see as much about the course as he or she can, and enjoy it as fully as temperament and skill permit.  The architect's business ends, as is true of the composer or sculptor or poet, when the course is put into play and on display.  He doesn't have to discuss it if he chooses not to.  Many artists prefer to let the work speak for itself, understanding very well that what the course means to them, or what they meant to accomplish in designing the course,  may not always be understood very well by those who've no experience and not tried to design a course themselves.  The poet Robert Frost, when asked to explain what his poem meant, would kindly, sometimes, reply, "Read the poem and find out yourself what it means."  He meant, basically, I just finished my work, I don't know what the result will be -- the meaning you'll find -- when you, a more or less acute and interested reader finishes yours.

That kind of reply often irritated and offended readers, who really believed that what the work meant for the creator of it could be articulated in a fully comprehensible, if not comprehensive, manner.  That Frost didn't even try frosted some readers mightily.  How many of his readers, he probably calculated  over the years of being confronted by his reply, would really get it, or believe he meant it, or accept it even when he tried to share with them!

That Tom (and others of his peers here) so regularly, courteously, sometimes quite comprehensively offer to discuss their own works and the creative processes that led to them, is extremely generous.  Sometimes, I even think, a bit foolhardy, as there is a good bit about the creative process that is unconscious and occurs beneath the level of verbal analysis.  Some poets, and Frost is among them, refuse to analyze what occurs unconsciously, precisely out of fear that subjecting such processes to analysis could thwart or subvert their natural operation.  Too much talk about and analysis of creativity can kill it.

I'm particularly grateful for hearing the architects discuss their own works; when they choose to do it, it's a great gift to us who really care to know more and better than what our own limited experiences have given us.  That the architect should speak in his own distinctive style is to be desired; his creative spirit is made known in his words and tone, just as his   spirit is expressed in the architectural vocabulary in his course's design.  We are not obliged to like the artist's personality any more than we are obliged to like his work.  But if we allow a person's style to get in the way of our understanding the substance of what he does, we are cutting ourselves off from the best fountain of information so rarely available to us.  That loss is on us, not the artist. 

So keep on posting here, Tom.  I expect most of us benefit from the heat and the light you shine on this board.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #73 on: March 28, 2014, 02:02:55 PM »
Frank:

Thanks for your post.  My wife was the one who went to art school [I started at MIT], so although I'm often accused of having an artistic temperament, I tend not to think of how I work as "art" even if it helps to be good at composition.  But I have learned well that once I'm finished with the work, it's out of my control; and more recently, that what people think of me, is really none of my business.

One of the things that has badly infected golf architecture over the last 30 years, as Jeff Brauer alluded to a bit in his earlier post, is how the last generation of signature designers [and their ghostwriters and p.r. people] were encouraged to ramble on about what they were doing, until it became expected as a part of the big design fee.  There have been a lot of guys who spent more time talking about their courses than actually thinking about the design when it was happening.  [That's a danger for all of us now that business is so slow.]

I'm not trying to paint everyone with a broad brush, but we all know there are lots of courses where the designer of record is a fraud, and eventually that expectation of fraud starts to infect everything said about the business.

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does my participation here discourage honest discussion of my work?
« Reply #74 on: March 28, 2014, 02:06:13 PM »
Tom,

I really like the fact that you do PARTICIPATE. I wish MORE architects would discuss more here, more they are probably not willing to have people "pick apart" their hard work in a public forum.
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

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