[Julian Wise]

It has long been held that in 1929, Tillinghast re-designed 4 holes (the 7th, 12th, 13th and 14th) at my club, Metropolis Country Club, in White Plains, New York.  Hebert Strong was the original designer.  Having played many Tillinghast courses, it does not appear that any of those 4 holes are Tillinghast type holes.  Is it possible that Tillinghast never actually designed any of these holes?  How could I find out?  Appreciate any responses.  Thanks.

[Sven Nilsen]

http://www.tillinghast.net/Tillinghast/RECONSTRUCTIONS.html

If its on this list, you can bet Phil Young has pretty good evidence for including it.

[Julian Wise]

I know it is on the list but I believe he placed it on the list based on articles (mainly the club's website) but in Tillighast's writings, I do not believe there is any evidence that Tillingahst ever mentions Mentions Metropolis which is unusual.

[DMoriarty]

Sven,  Phil means well but I wouldn't consider his research or lists to be infallible.

Added: 

That is not to say that this particular listing is inaccurate.  I am sure that Phil has his reasons for including it, but at the same time I wouldn't discourage Julian from looking into it further if he has any doubts.   

Julian, perhaps you should contact Phil and ask him for his backup.

[Sven Nilsen]

David:

Point taken.  But I have to say that my track record with Phil on the listed courses is that he seems to have an abundance of evidence.

I'm sure he'll see this and will chime in.

Sven

[DMoriarty]

Sven,  I modified my post above a bit.  I probably don't want to get into a general critique of Phil's research or conclusions.   As I said he means well and he usually has reasons for his decisions.   

[Bill Brightly]

Hackensack G.C. is on the list Sven posted, and all Tilly did on my course was write a one page report as part of his work for the PGA. He did not reconstruct any holes, he merely made a comment or two about certain holes.

I wonder if Phil has a list of courses Tillnghast toured for the PGA. Those are the one's where you should be very skeptical,

[Jim_Kennedy]

The Tillie Tour - no Metropolis - after all, he was just there in 1929. 
 
http://tillinghast.net/Tillinghast/Couse_Listing.html

[Mike Sweeney]

From an old thread by Tom MacWood:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43532.0/

One of the courses often cited as a Strong design is Metropolis in 1904. The course at Metropolis was originally the Century CC course before they moved in the early 20s to the course CH Alison built. Strong was not in the country in 1904 so he couldn't have laid out that course. I suspect he redesigned the course in the early 20s when Metropolis CC was formed, but that is just a guess.

[Tom_Doak]

It has long been held that in 1929, Tillinghast re-designed 4 holes (the 7th, 12th, 13th and 14th) at my club, Metropolis Country Club, in White Plains, New York.  Hebert Strong was the original designer.  Having played many Tillinghast courses, it does not appear that any of those 4 holes are Tillinghast type holes.  Is it possible that Tillinghast never actually designed any of these holes?  How could I find out?  Appreciate any responses.  Thanks.

Julian:

I'm sure this is not the response you were looking for, but:  honestly, why do you care?

I understand the general historical interest.  But does it make any difference in terms of the way you play the course now, or what you might consider changing, which architect did the work to begin with?

[Julian Wise]

I am mostly curious from an intellectual and historical standpoint. Herbert Strong was a fine designer in his own right and should probably have full credit for being the architect of the course.  I figured there must be a diary of Tillinghast during 1929 and wanted to see if there is a mention of Metropolis.

[DMoriarty]

Julian,

From a 1962 article in the Yonkers Herald Statesman:

In 1926, 30 acres were purchased, supplementing the original 104 acres. In 1928 the club decided to remodel the golf course and to build a swimming pool and the terrazzo open air dancing floor. Additional property was acquired as an incident to the remodeling in 1929. Old Tarrytown R o a d, which formerly bounded the course on the east and was, by arrangement with the Town of Greenburgh, closed and its bed was ceded to the club.


No mention of AWT

Full article here:
http://www.fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%2010/Yonkers%20NY%20Herald%20Statesman/Yonkers%20NY%20Herald%20Statesman%201962%20Grayscale/Yonkers%20NY%20Herald%20Statesman%201962%20%20Grayscale%20-%205260.pdf#xml=http://www.fultonhistory.com/dtSearch/dtisapi6.dll?cmd=getpdfhits&u=497570a5&DocId=1302726&Index=Z%3a%5cIndex%20I%2dE%2dV&HitCount=7&hits=38+39+3a+159+218+219+21a+&SearchForm=C%3a%5cinetpub%5cwwwroot%5cFulton%5fNew%5fform%2ehtml&.pdf

[JESII]

I don't know the first thing about Metropolis but Doak and Moriarty's posts leave me surprised.

Tom, while presuming the architect doesn't matter if it's lasted X years and is good is a position I generally agree with, I'm impressed that a top architect of today would agree as well.

David, what would you say if Tom Paul posted an article as irrelevant to golf architecture as that in a Merion or Pine valley thread?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Julian,

I always loved Metropolis, but, if I could alter one thing, I'd get rid of the tennis courts and restore the course to it's prior configuration.

Then, I'd tar and feather every living board member who voted to disfigure a terrific course by locating the tennis courts where they did.

Yikes, What were they thinking ?

[DMoriarty]

Just trying to help, Jim.  And, while article in question doesn't answer all of Julian's questions, I wouldn't quite call it "irrelevant to golf architecture."  
   - Julian mentioned that AWT is credited with creating 7, 12, 13, 14 in 1929.  The article mentions that in 1928-1929 the course expanded east of Old Tarrytown Road, and as I am sure Julian knows this is the land for Nos. 12, 13, and 14.
   - And while the article doesn't confirm that AWT was in charge of the changes, it does indicate that changes were indeed made in 1929.
   - And if 3 holes were added on this new land, then changes were obviously made elsewhere, and/or other holes were eliminated.    
   - Also, while probably of no interest to Julian, there is the matter the public road which was apparently ceded to the club and grassed into the course.  Imagine how different Merion would be today if a section of Ardmore Avenue had been ceded to MCC and became part of the golf course.

So sorry that this isn't enough about architecture for you, though.   I'll try harder next time.

As for your hypothetical, I would have been absolutely shocked if he had ever posted an article about anything. In his tens of thousands of posts, I don't recall that ever happening.

[Julian Wise]

Julian,

I always loved Metropolis, but, if I could alter one thing, I'd get rid of the tennis courts and restore the course to it's prior configuration.

Then, I'd tar and feather every living board member who voted to disfigure a terrific course by locating the tennis courts where they did.

Yikes, What were they thinking ?

Pat,

You are correct about the tennis courts.  We have hired Ron Forse to re-do many of the holes at Metropolis to get back to the original design (one of the reasons I was so curious about whether Tillinghast actually ever set foot at the course) but there is nothing he can do about the tee shot on the 10th hole because of the tennis courts.  I once suggested that the upper tennis courts should go and the mere suggestion did not go over well.  Forse did a lot of work to the course over the winter and from what I have seen, he has done an amazing job of restoration to the original configuration of the course.

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