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Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2014, 09:01:18 PM »
There are other walking public courses in LA.  Like Rancho Park.

In addition to the courses mentioned, LA County has 19 courses or so- a few of which are 9 holes- but essentially all of them are walkable. And not just theoretically walkable, but comfortably and consistently so. Likewise the Long Beach tracks (Big Rec, Skylinks, EL Do) are all comfortable walks.

OC has the Miles Square courses, Costa Mesa courses, the Navy courses and then the little guys like the Wick, Meadowlark, Dad Miller, Fullerton. Tustin Ranch is also quite walkable.

Granted, they are crowded (and/or expensive.) But its tough to blame architects for that problem. As it happens, the LA Area has a lot of people and many of them seem to want to play golf.

More generally, looking at the list of recent courses (and adding a few that aren't on there like Westridge, Black Gold, Coyote Hills) it seems to me a bigger issue is that it is going to be very difficult to find a chunk of land in LA/OC that can accommodate a comfortable walking course. However they were routed, Pelican Hills was going to be a tough walk giving the terrain involved. Some of the others on that list suffer from similar geographic constraints.

It would seem that the biggest issue is that it is very hard to get the acreage you need to build a new course in the LA/OC area. To the extent that you can get it, the odds are that it will either be hillside (and thus tough to walk) or the acreage will be part of a much larger development (fostering the  necessity lengthy transitions) or feature some other challenges (flood control, power lines, environmentally sensitive areas, freeways) that will also make it hard to design a compact lay out.

To be sure, worrying about whether or not a course is walkable is a very recent consideration for me, and not one that personally interests me all that much, so I could be off on this. And I'm sure some of the recent courses could have been made much more walker-friendly. That said, I think suggesting that the lack of recently built walkable courses in LA/OC is simply a design issue misses some of the complexities of why that may be.

And besides, there is always the Goose!

Los Verdes not mentioned and it may be the best of the bunch, though I like Rancho too.

Still, none even close to great... that was my point.

And John, it is about the publics because you asked where else can you play however you choose? There are many good private clubs and courses, but not everyone has that choice. Moreso I'm not sure of any privates that have been built in the last 20 years.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 09:03:20 PM by Alex Miller »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2014, 09:10:28 PM »
Joe, I haven't played Sterling Hills in many years either, but I remember it as a housing project course with numerous long walks across or along public roads and with a number of holes where there was little reasonable way to get to the next tee because of natural and/or man-made features.  I quick look at their website and at google earth confirmed my memory.


It may well be walkable for some (I think I also walked it, years ago) but it is laid out like a cart ball course for convenience of cartballers, not walkers. At best it is a cart ball course that tolerates walkers who don't mind long treks through neighborhoods.  I also did a quick count on walking distance between the previous green and next green (using the approx. equivalent of the blue at each) and the distances to and from the clubhouse, and I don't think your speculation that Rustic is a longer walk holds up.  

That said, as you know Rustic is far from a perfect walking course.  Most the tees and greens are close, but there is a 110 yard walk from 4 to 5 and longer walks between 9 and 10 (about 275 yards), between 12 and 13 (about 200 yards), and between 17 and 18 (about 200 yards), plus an annoying uphill 80 yard walk between 15 and 16. Three of these cross the environmental area.  While it'd be nice if these walks weren't necessary, the course was obviously designed with walking in mind and as modern courses go it is a nice walk.  I think we agree on that.
___________________________________________________________________

Bill Seitz, Oak Quarry and Talega are good examples of modern L.A. cart ball courses, but I was going off the top of my head for easily accessible modern courses for me, and I didn't want to expand the radius too much and to turn this into a research project. If we did expand the radius I think we'd get many other modern cart ball courses with perhaps an exception or two like Goose Creek which (if I remember correctly) isn't a bad walk.
____________________________________________________________________

Scott Weersing and John McSweeny,

I agree that there are plenty of older courses which are walkable in Los Angeles, although access can be tough (at publics and privates.)

My comments on this issue have been directed only at trends in golf course design, and particularly golf courses built in the past couple of decades.  Kavanaugh was scolding me and challenging us to tell him where all these cart ball courses have been built.  Turns out there are plenty that have been built all around Los Angeles, and very few walking courses built in the past few decades.

Regarding Trump National, I haven't played it since before the changes, but it was mandatory cart then.  Do they really allow walking now?  Much of the course is stapled to a side of the fairy steep ridge, and there are (were) horrible transitions, so I'd be surprised if they have many walking.  
_________________________________________________

Tim Leahy,   Do you feel the same way about "carts only" courses?  Los Angeles has plenty of those.  What option do they give?
___________________________________________________

Notice how Kavanaugh keeps changing his criteria?  He put down the challenge to identify where the un-walkable courses were being built in Los Angeles.  Turns out that is about all that has been built, for decades, with a few noted exceptions.   So he just finds some lame justification to throw all of these out.  First he excluded courses in locations where a tourist might want to play and courses built in what he used to consider a golden age of architecture (apparently the late 1980's/ early 1990s.)  Now he excludes public courses, based on some fanciful theory about how all Angelinos  are aspiring to join private clubs. (A truly laughable notion in Los Angeles.)  If anyone lists courses like Sherwood, Kavanaugh will probably eliminate private courses built after a certain date, too. Soon we will be left with the old privates. I guess his point is that walking golfers with access to the old Los Angeles private clubs have plenty of walking opportunities.   But no one has ever said differently.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 09:19:24 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2014, 09:18:41 PM »
There are other walking public courses in LA.  Like Rancho Park.

In addition to the courses mentioned, LA County has 19 courses or so- a few of which are 9 holes- but essentially all of them are walkable. And not just theoretically walkable, but comfortably and consistently so. Likewise the Long Beach tracks (Big Rec, Skylinks, EL Do) are all comfortable walks.

OC has the Miles Square courses, Costa Mesa courses, the Navy courses and then the little guys like the Wick, Meadowlark, Dad Miller, Fullerton. Tustin Ranch is also quite walkable.

Granted, they are crowded (and/or expensive.) But its tough to blame architects for that problem. As it happens, the LA Area has a lot of people and many of them seem to want to play golf.

More generally, looking at the list of recent courses (and adding a few that aren't on there like Westridge, Black Gold, Coyote Hills) it seems to me a bigger issue is that it is going to be very difficult to find a chunk of land in LA/OC that can accommodate a comfortable walking course. However they were routed, Pelican Hills was going to be a tough walk giving the terrain involved. Some of the others on that list suffer from similar geographic constraints.

It would seem that the biggest issue is that it is very hard to get the acreage you need to build a new course in the LA/OC area. To the extent that you can get it, the odds are that it will either be hillside (and thus tough to walk) or the acreage will be part of a much larger development (fostering the  necessity lengthy transitions) or feature some other challenges (flood control, power lines, environmentally sensitive areas, freeways) that will also make it hard to design a compact lay out.

To be sure, worrying about whether or not a course is walkable is a very recent consideration for me, and not one that personally interests me all that much, so I could be off on this. And I'm sure some of the recent courses could have been made much more walker-friendly. That said, I think suggesting that the lack of recently built walkable courses in LA/OC is simply a design issue misses some of the complexities of why that may be.

And besides, there is always the Goose!

Los Verdes not mentioned and it may be the best of the bunch, though I like Rancho too.

Still, none even close to great... that was my point.

And John, it is about the publics because you asked where else can you play however you choose? There are many good private clubs and courses, but not everyone has that choice. Moreso I'm not sure of any privates that have been built in the last 20 years.

Alex,

Sometimes having a choice requires patience. I am a firm believer that any of us can be a member of any course we choose if we make the right choices. I would say of all the great cities in the world LA may be the most open to everyone.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2014, 09:21:43 PM »
There are other walking public courses in LA.  Like Rancho Park.

In addition to the courses mentioned, LA County has 19 courses or so- a few of which are 9 holes- but essentially all of them are walkable. And not just theoretically walkable, but comfortably and consistently so. Likewise the Long Beach tracks (Big Rec, Skylinks, EL Do) are all comfortable walks.

OC has the Miles Square courses, Costa Mesa courses, the Navy courses and then the little guys like the Wick, Meadowlark, Dad Miller, Fullerton. Tustin Ranch is also quite walkable.

Granted, they are crowded (and/or expensive.) But its tough to blame architects for that problem. As it happens, the LA Area has a lot of people and many of them seem to want to play golf.

More generally, looking at the list of recent courses (and adding a few that aren't on there like Westridge, Black Gold, Coyote Hills) it seems to me a bigger issue is that it is going to be very difficult to find a chunk of land in LA/OC that can accommodate a comfortable walking course. However they were routed, Pelican Hills was going to be a tough walk giving the terrain involved. Some of the others on that list suffer from similar geographic constraints.

It would seem that the biggest issue is that it is very hard to get the acreage you need to build a new course in the LA/OC area. To the extent that you can get it, the odds are that it will either be hillside (and thus tough to walk) or the acreage will be part of a much larger development (fostering the  necessity lengthy transitions) or feature some other challenges (flood control, power lines, environmentally sensitive areas, freeways) that will also make it hard to design a compact lay out.

To be sure, worrying about whether or not a course is walkable is a very recent consideration for me, and not one that personally interests me all that much, so I could be off on this. And I'm sure some of the recent courses could have been made much more walker-friendly. That said, I think suggesting that the lack of recently built walkable courses in LA/OC is simply a design issue misses some of the complexities of why that may be.

And besides, there is always the Goose!

Los Verdes not mentioned and it may be the best of the bunch, though I like Rancho too.

Still, none even close to great... that was my point.

And John, it is about the publics because you asked where else can you play however you choose? There are many good private clubs and courses, but not everyone has that choice. Moreso I'm not sure of any privates that have been built in the last 20 years.

Alex,

Sometimes having a choice requires patience. I am a firm believer that any of us can be a member of any course we choose if we make the right choices. I would say of all the great cities in the world LA may be the most open to everyone.

Hopefully those right choices don't require the casting couch!

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2014, 09:30:21 PM »
I love when people from rural Indiana tell those of us in Los Angeles about how life in Los Angeles works, and about what is and is not "open to everyone."

I also love this fantasy that golfers in Los Angeles are aspiring to someday join the country club set.  The reality is that there are many very successful, well-connected individuals in Los Angeles who aren't all that interested in belonging to these clubs (especially not the clubs with the great courses) for a host of reasons. Some are interested, but many are not.

I also love that Kavanaugh is actually calling these courses to check up on my list.  Do you suppose he checked them all before he decided none of them counted?
____________________________________

Alex, you can wait by the phone for that membership offer from LACC, or you can get your lazy butt out of bed and come play on Sunday morning.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 09:39:14 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2014, 09:56:37 PM »
Every possible version of Americana can be found on the walls at Lakeside.  Please name another course in the country with a more diverse membership. Rustic is the finest value based great urban course in the country. LACC is a top five business centric course. Riviera is as great a championship course the world has ever seen. There is something for everyone. No one really needs to play them all.

I don't get how any golfer could be angry in LA.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2014, 09:59:44 PM »
I think California as a whole is just a golfer's paradise. Now if only the traffic was as enjoyable....

Mike Sweeney

Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2014, 10:17:30 PM »

Sometimes having a choice requires patience. I am a firm believer that any of us can be a member of any course we choose if we make the right choices. I would say of all the great cities in the world LA may be the most open to everyone.


John,

Let's pursue this with - John Kavanaugh in a time machine.

It is the late 1970's and John Kavanaugh decides to break away from the family and go to college in Los Angeles, California. Which college would you choose, and if you do not choose college, what profession would you choose in Los Angeles?

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2014, 10:20:32 PM »
Every possible version of Americana can be found on the walls at Lakeside.  Please name another course in the country with a more diverse membership. Rustic is the finest value based great urban course in the country. LACC is a top five business centric course. Riviera is as great a championship course the world has ever seen. There is something for everyone. No one really needs to play them all.

I don't get how any golfer could be angry in LA.

I don't know if anyone's angry, but I think most do not envision paradise having 13 million other people crowding the tee.  8) It's great for many aspects of life, but golf is not necessarily one of them. I am glad you enjoyed your time out here though, John. LA can definitely offer some great golf experiences, and a few different kinds, but you've extrapolated a bit too far. It's different for the kama'aina who live here year round!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2014, 10:20:56 PM »

Sometimes having a choice requires patience. I am a firm believer that any of us can be a member of any course we choose if we make the right choices. I would say of all the great cities in the world LA may be the most open to everyone.


John,

Let's pursue this with - John Kavanaugh in a time machine.

It is the late 1970's and John Kavanaugh decides to break away from the family and go to college in Los Angeles, California. Which college would you choose, and if you do not choose college, what profession would you choose in Los Angeles?

I would have run track at USC and become a screen writer.  Oddly enough I had the talent for both.

BCowan

Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2014, 10:29:18 PM »
''LA's fine, the sun shines most the time
The feeling is laid back
Palm trees grow and the rents are low''

Happy St Patty's Day....

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2014, 11:28:25 PM »
Every possible version of Americana can be found on the walls at Lakeside. 

Every version of Americana can be found in movies and on TV as well.  If you're seeing every version of Americana at Lakeside, John, it's probably because they're all actors. When you see Don Johnson playing Lakeside, you understand he's not really a vice cop from Miami, right?

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2014, 11:40:59 PM »
Every possible version of Americana can be found on the walls at Lakeside. 

Every version of Americana can be found in movies and on TV as well.  If you're seeing every version of Americana at Lakeside, John, it's probably because they're all actors. When you see Don Johnson playing Lakeside, you understand he's not really a vice cop from Miami, right?

Isn't Don Johnson the tour pro who always lays up and finishes second? Mean to old people, dogs, and kids?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2014, 11:44:08 PM »
Don Johnson is more Midwestern than me:

Johnson was born in Flat Creek, Missouri.[1] His mother, Nell (née Wilson), was a beautician, and his father, Wayne Fred Johnson, was a farmer.[5][6] At the time of his birth, they were 19 and 17, respectively. At age six, he moved from Missouri to Wichita, Kansas. A 1967 graduate of South High School, he was involved in the high school's theatre program. As a senior, he played the lead role of Tony in West Side Story. His biography noted that he had previously appeared in "Burnt Cork and Melody" and "The Hullabaloo." He also attended the University of Kansas in Lawrence, Kansas.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2014, 12:09:28 AM »
I don't know if anyone's angry . . .

Alex,   I'm the one who Kavanaugh is repeatedly trying to flame as the angry Los Angeles golfer. That his always been his only real purpose on this thread. All the rest is just the setup.

Never mind that I am very happy to be a golfer in Los Angeles and to regularly play a course I love with friends who tolerate me.  And never mind that my views on carts have little to do with my current golf situation, except perhaps that I am grateful to have a quality course to walk.

Apparently he can't comprehend how anyone could would have an opinion that isn't in direct service of some personal agenda and/or personal vendetta.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 12:32:53 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2014, 12:20:49 AM »
I don't know if anyone's angry . . .

Alex,   I'm the one who Kavanaugh is repeatedly trying to flame as the angry Los Angeles golfer. That his always been his only real purpose on this thread. All the rest is just the setup.

Never mind that I am a very happy to be a golfer in Los Angeles and to regularly play a course I love with friends who tolerate me.  And never mind that my views on carts have little to do with my current situation, except perhaps that I am grateful to have a quality course to walk.

Apparently he can't comprehend how anyone could would have an opinion that isn't in direct service of some personal agenda and/or personal vendetta.



David,
  Forgive my ignorance, but what course do you usually play? No agenda, I just want to look at the course.

Nigel

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2014, 12:22:40 AM »
Rustic Canyon. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2014, 12:24:53 AM »
David,

Thanks, I sometimes just glaze over the non-golf stuff. I'm sure I'll see you out there soon enough!  :)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2014, 12:33:36 AM »
David,

Thanks, I sometimes just glaze over the non-golf stuff. . .

I don't blame you.  I do too.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2014, 12:35:16 AM »
Thanks David

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2014, 01:18:16 AM »


It would seem that the biggest issue is that it is very hard to get the acreage you need to build a new course in the LA/OC area. To the extent that you can get it, the odds are that it will either be hillside (and thus tough to walk) or the acreage will be part of a much larger development (fostering the  necessity lengthy transitions) or feature some other challenges (flood control, power lines, environmentally sensitive areas, freeways) that will also make it hard to design a compact lay out.



Jon Nailed it.
"chief sherpa"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2014, 09:13:00 AM »
JakaB,

If it wasn't for carts I couldn't play golf, and I'm sure that many other ardent golfers are in the same boat, so I don't understand the anti-cart angst.

Why did you use David Moriarty's initials instead of his full name ?

Why start a thread attacking him for his views ?

He's entitled to his, as your entitled to yours.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2014, 09:19:31 AM »
I lived in Orange County for a couple years.  Mile Sq and Costa Mesa CC (muni) were nearby (15 min.) and I played each of their courses a total of one time.  Many walkable courses in the LA area.  Many are six hour rounds.  Add the commute and all the hassles of congestion, and it was the worst two years of my life golf-wise.  Great weather though.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2014, 09:43:19 AM »
JakaB,

If it wasn't for carts I couldn't play golf, and I'm sure that many other ardent golfers are in the same boat, so I don't understand the anti-cart angst.

Why did you use David Moriarty's initials instead of his full name ?

Why start a thread attacking him for his views ?

He's entitled to his, as your entitled to yours.

Because for the last month he has stalked and trolled every post I have made no matter what the subject. I started this thread in an attempt to learn what has made him so angry. I think I got my answers.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfing the ball in L.A. It's about the walk.
« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2014, 10:22:49 AM »
Wow, I clicked on a whizzing contest and a legitimate thread broke out.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

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