Firm and Fast: Does it work with water hazards?

[Nigel Islam]

Ryan Coles just made a statement on the Doral thread that I think is worthy of its own discussion. Does firm and fast work well with courses that have predominant irrecoverable hazards such as water?

I have some thoughts on the matter, but will refrain for now.

[Blake Conant]

If the course provides options (which Doral does) to avoid the water, sure.  Doral is punishing players who refuse to adjust to the conditions and/or get too greedy.

[jeffwarne]

Firm and fast
Does it work with narrow fairways?
Does it work with knee high rough on both sides?
Does it work with OB?
The playing corridors at Doral are quite large compared to most Tour courses, though 10 and 18 are small

Firm looked less like the problem yesterday than fast

[Steven Blake]

Firm and Fast works everywhere! Make the proper adjustments ... I think the wind is more a factor at this point then the F&F conditions.

Blake

[Nigel Islam]

Firm and fast
Does it work with narrow fairways?
Does it work with knee high rough on both sides?
Does it work with OB?

I tend to agree with this line of thought. I am not sure firm and fast works well with water hazards fronting greens although I think there are certain exceptions. I think the locations of the hazards with regards to the line of play certainly has influenced the way the PGA tour has set up its courses (ie firm fairways & soft, fast greens) I personally prefer firm and fast fairways and firm and fast green, but it becomes difficult to get the ball close with a fronting water hazard.

[Ryan Coles]

How do you adjust to bounce your ball through water short of the green?

[jeffwarne]

How do you adjust to bounce your ball through water short of the green?

Drive it in the right places to avoid having that problem
At Doral the only hole you have water in front, (from the preferred angle) where you can't bounce it up is 15(150) yards and 18 (where you can bounce up a draw if you had to)

[Niall C]

Firm and fast
Does it work with narrow fairways?
Does it work with knee high rough on both sides?
Does it work with OB?
The playing corridors at Doral are quite large compared to most Tour courses, though 10 and 18 are small

Firm looked less like the problem yesterday than fast

Works well at the Open  As Steven suggests, its about making adjustments to your normal game.

Niall

[Jim_Kennedy]

I'm guessing there were other reasons for Bridgewater GC (Smyers) in Lakeland, Fl to close, like being under-funded, close proximity to I-4 and a commercial zone, etc., but it was also a chore to keep balls on the lawn and out of the water when it was F&F & dormant in the winter.

Too bad, it was a fun place.

[Paul Gray]

No.

It can work with narrow fairways, it can work with OB but it can't work on a 240 yard par 3 with water right in front of the green. Actually, a course I was recently working at had a hole much like that. It was, comparatively, one of the better holes on the course, but if anyone ever really wanted to get hold of the place and slick it up it would present a real headache.

[Thomas Dai]

I would suggest combining firm and fast with with water hazards is a question of adjusting ones game - and brain - to the situation. It's the score that ultimately counts, not how you achieved it. Put the ego away and adjust to the prevailing circumstances/conditions.
atb

[Sean_A]

I don't think it really works.  But then, when a property is going to play a bit slow and wet much of the year, why would an archie design for f&f?  That doesn't mean there has to be lots of water, but there can be loads of raised greens with more bunkering, smaller greens etc.  I often shudder at the idea of Cavendish being f&f - it would be a nightmare. 

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

No.

It can work with narrow fairways, it can work with OB but it can't work on a 240 yard par 3 with water right in front of the green. Actually, a course I was recently working at had a hole much like that. It was, comparatively, one of the better holes on the course, but if anyone ever really wanted to get hold of the place and slick it up it would present a real headache.

For the vast majority of golfers a 240 yard par 3 with water in front of the green is a bad hole, so no wonder it doesn't work with F&F, it doesn't work with any maintenance regime.

[Jim Hoak]

From watching on television, I think the problem was less the playability of the firm and fast fairways than some of the greens where the slope around the hole fed the ball unnaturally into water.  That seemed to distract from the redesign of the new course.  Anyone played it yet?  Will be interesting to see how they modify it for daily play.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Sean, I remember playing Cavendish in a long dry summer a few years ago with a friend who is a low handicapper at Royal Mid-Surrey. He couldn't fathom those greens (8 was particularly perplexing to him) and 3- and 4-putted quite a number of times (first visit for him). He made Alwoodley look easy the following day.

[Bruce Katona]

If you'all would try to play around these parts currently there would be no issues playing F&F through the water hazards as they are still frozen solid.

Tees greens & fairways are running a bit slow due to the foot of snow still on the ground. Need to use the optic yellow or orange balls to locate tee balls & approach shots in the snow also.

[Sean_A]

Sean, I remember playing Cavendish in a long dry summer a few years ago with a friend who is a low handicapper at Royal Mid-Surrey. He couldn't fathom those greens (8 was particularly perplexing to him) and 3- and 4-putted quite a number of times (first visit for him). He made Alwoodley look easy the following day.

Mark

I can only imagine how difficult it must be to approach and putt some of those Cavendish greens.  I think Dr Mac designed the course with the thought it would usually be wetter than ideal.  Its just a shame that all of my visits have caught Cavendish rather slow and sloppy because its a cracking design.

Ciao

[Steven Blake]

At the end of the day who knows how Trump Doral is going to play from here on out.  The greens where only a few months old with little to no thatch making them firmer. I have a suspicion that it will not play that firm in future years.

Steve Blake