[BCowan]

''Any time I can make a phone call to play 36 in one day at two universally regarded top 100 courses for less than $150, I'd call that "affordable" golf.  Mike Keiser doesn't need to build a muni to convince me that he's committed to providing value.''

   When the winter months get 9.5 inches of rain a month and 55 deg average temps, the market dictates $150 for 36 holes.  Now we are using words like value, which is a better word than affordable.  Mr Keiser is hero of mine, but this BS some of you are selling, I am not buying.

[Sven Nilsen]

Bandon Crossings is going to be fine.

They rode Keiser's coat tails to get going (I'd guess that over 50% of their play is from people who wouldn't be living in Bandon if the resort wasn't there), and they have a loyal following who can obtain monthly passes at very low rates.  

If anything, they can only do better if a new course is added to the area.  That means more "locals" moving there to work the new course, more folks from Oregon visiting Bandon to play golf and more play in general for the area from other visitors.  There is currently spill over play (I know people who play their first round of any Bandon trip at Crossings), and there will be spill over play from the Muni.

Most importanty, their cost model is low, mostly because they're on land that does not require a huge maintenance budget.

And if I'm wrong and they go under due to the competition, so be it.  This is America after all, and we believe in business Darwinism.

[Sven Nilsen]

''Any time I can make a phone call to play 36 in one day at two universally regarded top 100 courses for less than $150, I'd call that "affordable" golf.  Mike Keiser doesn't need to build a muni to convince me that he's committed to providing value.''

   When the winter months get 9.5 inches of rain a month and 55 deg average temps, the market dictates $150 for 36 holes.  Now we are using words like value, which is a better word than affordable.  Mr Keiser is hero of mine, but this BS some of you are selling, I am not buying.

Ben:

You're becoming a pest.

I made two trips to Bandon this winter.  I know what I'm talking about.

Sven

[Mike_Young]

Re:  Is fine dining a realistic option to McDonalds?  How stupid does that sound?

...no more so than " is affordable golf a realistic option for Trump, Keiser, etc."

I continue to be amazed at this site.....no clue when it comes to affordable golf.  The best that can be offered up is a few courses that have been discussed on the site and that's it.  I think Jeff mentions some place called Goat Hill but this site is not capable of discussing it.  Every town has courses that are affordable but this site cannot bring itself to even mention such.  I can show you one guy that bottom lines over $500,000 per year on a $35 green fee and it is a good product...horizons need to be broadened on this subject...

[jeffwarne]

Mike,
To be fair Mark Saltzman did a wonderful photo tour of West Palm beach muni and it was discussed.

It's no Goat Hill, but it works for those who have to suffer in Palm Beach

Though I have elevated Miami Springs to my favorite affordable course in a major metro area .pd $35 and it may be cheaper on Golfnow

[BCowan]

Jeff

   You need to do a photo tour of Miami Springs! 

[jeffwarne]

Jeff

   You need to do a photo tour of Miami Springs! 

I didn't take any pictures-was involved in a heated match
the pictures on their website are terrible-I almost didn't go back(was last there in '95) they were so bad.
Really good Ross-great variety-
back nine par 3's 248 and 150 to a scary semivolcano elevated green.
great variety of greensites and interesting doglegs.
and yes epic,probably nonnative, trees that define many doglegs

better yet I'll email you Goat Hill pictures and you can post!

[Sven Nilsen]

Mike:

Who exactly are you talking to?

This is the site that put together an exhaustive list of affordable golf courses.

This is the site that begs for brown, but understands its not possiible everywhere.

This is the site where its a badge of honor to bring up the little town course in butt-fo wherever that cost you $15, ran fast and firm and was a blast to play.

This is the site of Sean Arble's latest UK find, of Joe Baush's Cobb's Creek, of Dan Moore's Spring Valley, of Mac's Rivermont, of RJ Daley's Wild Horse, of my Shepherd's Crook and yes, of Jeff Warne's Goat Hill.

This is the site where we talk about golf, about golf architecture and about the good and the bad of the game, instead of mindlessly just playing it.  I won't go as far as to say we're all enlightened, but I think we would like to be.

With all due respect, there's a lot more reverence to the concept than you allow for in your last post.  And if your problem is that we talk about the same handful of courses, I don't think there's anything wrong with using a few prime examples to emphasize a broader point. We're more likely to understand an analogy using a well discussed course than one that only a handful of us have seen.

So instead of complaining we don't know anything, why don't you stop telling us how ignorant we are and start trying to teach us.  I think you'll find that we're probably all closer to being on the same page than you think.

Sven

[Terry Lavin]

Sven,

Thanks for the stirring paean to affordable golf love on gca.com, but methinks Mike is closer to the truth on this topic. There are many more posts about best this and private that than the dusty $15 muni of which you spoke. There's more access whoring than cheap golf adoring and more private course praising than goat ranch get togethers. Not that it's all bad, mind you. I'm a confirmed golf and gca snob. Unapologetically so.

Life's too short to play goat track munis.

[Sven Nilsen]

Terry:

Any golf is good golf, I'll take what I can get.

Sven

[Mike_Young]

Mike:

Who exactly are you talking to?  
The overall discussions with all due respect  

This is the site that put together an exhaustive list of affordable golf courses.
have never seen it...where?

This is the site that begs for brown, but understands its not possiible everywhere.
This site does not understand brown IMHO....not in the US atleast

This is the site where its a badge of honor to bring up the little town course in butt-fo wherever that cost you $15, ran fast and firm and was a blast to play.
I have seen some of that but not enough to consider it a site trait...


This is the site of Sean Arble's latest UK find, of Joe Baush's Cobb's Creek, of Dan Moore's Spring Valley, of Mac's Rivermont, of RJ Daley's Wild Horse, of my Shepherd's Crook and yes, of Jeff Warne's Goat Hill.
That's 7....show me some with a 500 sq ft clubhouse and a weeny machine and no muni's....

This is the site where we talk about golf, about golf architecture and about the good and the bad of the game, instead of mindlessly just playing it.  I won't go as far as to say we're all enlightened, but I think we would like to be.   I don't exactly see it that way....I tire of hearing all the ground game talk on this site...and I know plenty of people that don't mindlessly play the game and know a hell of a lot more about it than most of this site, they just don't care to discuss or delve into architecture...remember of all the professions in golf, golf design and golf teacher only require a business card. the others require some skills...

With all due respect, there's a lot more reverence to the concept than you allow for in your last post.  And if your problem is that we talk about the same handful of courses, I don't think there's anything wrong with using a few prime examples to emphasize a broader point. We're more likely to understand an analogy using a well discussed course than one that only a handful of us have seen.  With all due respect, only a couple of those are "prime " examples..nothing is to say most of this site has seen any more of one course than another unless they are located in the NE USA.

So instead of complaining we don't know anything, why don't you stop telling us how ignorant we are and start trying to teach us.  I think you'll find that we're probably all closer to being on the same page than you think.
...I do think there are several groups on this site who share different same pages.  We have the spankers who eat sleep and breathe gutta percha...we have the nerds who actually devote time to studying the created histories of this ODG stuff and we have the realist who see thru the BS....I have never said the site  didn't know anything.  And I see it as entertainment..but if I were to try to teach it something on the subject title I would begin again by asking "  Is fine dining a realistic option to McDonalds?  That answer should tell me all I need to know about how knowledable one is to Trump, Keiser and affordable golf

[Terry Lavin]

Terry:

Any golf is good golf, I'll take what I can get.

Sven

And that's one of your many charms, my friend!

[Mark Pritchett]

I agree with Mike, affordable golf is plentiful.  Here in Augusta (GA) you have Forest Hills (Ross), Goshen (Ellis Maples), Gordon Lakes (RTJ), Jones Creek (Rees Jones), River Club (Jim Fazio), Bartram Trail (Rick Robbins),  Augusta Municipal (?) First Tee (Palmer Design), Pointe South, and a little ways out Midland Valley (Ellis Maples), Cedar Creek ( Art Hills) and the oft mentioned Aiken Golf Club.  I would venutre to say one could play most of these for less than fifty dollars on any given day.  

[Sven Nilsen]

Mike:

Here's the Public Access course thread, its worth bookmarking (will admit it wasn't necessarily about affordable golf, but its a good list nonetheless):

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42908.0.html

Here's page 1 of the 40 that come up if you plug affordable into the search function:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?action=search2

As one of the "nerds" you described, I'd have to counter that there just as many anti-intellectuals around here with a chip on their shoulder and some ridiculous preconceptions about the rest of us, including some misguided thoughts about regional biases.

If anything, I guess we're just proving the "groupthink" theorists wrong.  Sounds like there's a little corner of this site for everyone.

Sven

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat: You may not find the model economically possible in Northern New Jersey but in other areas of the country it can work. 

What areas ?

There are plenty of businesses that have been turned around and become profitable when someone knows how to operate them more efficiently and market them properly. 

Cite five golf course examples


What makes it impossible for golf? 

The reduced demand


Who says the purchase price has to be so high that you can not charge a reasonable greens fee - you say it but how many public golf courses have you operated? 

The purchase price has several components.
The operating business and the assets.

When you have an asset that isn't productive, such as land, you have to get your cash flow from the operating business.
And that cash flow has to pay for both operations and the assets purchased.
So how do you do that by LOWERING your price ?

Either the seller is making money, losing money or breaking even.
If the seller is losing money or breaking even, how is lowering the green fee going to improve profitability ?

And, if the seller is making money, why would you want to lower your return on your investment ?
Why would you want to reduce profits ?

There are certainly efficient and inefficient ways to operate a business and the same with the maintenance of a golf course. 

"Maintenance" doesn't exist in a vacuum.
"Maintenance" has to make the course an attractive alternative
The "standards"  of "maintenance" must be commensurate with or better than your competitors.
Higher standards typically equals higher costs.
Hence, higher operating costs with lower revenues is a formula for disaster.

My old course had better playing conditions than another course nearby that spent nearly double on course maintenance.


I don't believe it, unless there were unusual mitigating circumstances.
What's the name of your course ?
Let's find out what their maintenance budget was and compare it to the nearby course.

There is no absolute - even if Pat Mucci says there is.

There is "common sense", which doesn't appear to be so common.

[Mike_Young]

Mike:

Here's the Public Access course thread, its worth bookmarking (will admit it wasn't necessarily about affordable golf, but its a good list nonetheless):

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42908.0.html

Here's page 1 of the 40 that come up if you plug affordable into the search function:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?action=search2

As one of the "nerds" you described, I'd have to counter that there just as many anti-intellectuals around here with a chip on their shoulder and some ridiculous preconceptions about the rest of us, including some misguided thoughts about regional biases.

If anything, I guess we're just proving the "groupthink" theorists wrong.  Sounds like there's a little corner of this site for everyone.

Sven

Sven,
I'm not trying to single you out...so don't think that...
I will read the public access thread but as you say that is different than affordable....most of my best buddies are in the nerd group...they can't help it...but I do think there is a huge NE bias here....I'm going back to my little corner...
Cheers,
Mike Y

[Sean_A]

PS - Any time I can make a phone call to play 36 in one day at two universally regarded top 100 courses for less than $150, I'd call that "affordable" golf.  Mike Keiser doesn't need to build a muni to convince me that he's committed to providing value.

Sven - affordable and good value, while both very subjective terms, can be very different things.  I think North Berwick at £90 is good value in the world of high price golf, but I wouldn't say its affordable - far from it.  Kington at £28 is unbelievably good value, but I would say its borderline affordable. 

Ciao

[Lou_Duran]

Mike,
To be fair Mark Saltzman did a wonderful photo tour of West Palm beach muni and it was discussed.

It's no Goat Hill, but it works for those who have to suffer in Palm Beach

Though I have elevated Miami Springs to my favorite affordable course in a major metro area .pd $35 and it may be cheaper on Golfnow

Interested in a MS photo tour.  I played MS several times in the early to mid 70s during spring breaks because it was what I could afford.  Melreese and the Biltmore were two other affordable options in the area.  I thought the Biltmore was pretty good.  MS and Melreese were fine to get the winter rust off, but neither would get much of a Doak rating from me, and that was long before I became somewhat of a golf course snob. 

[jeffwarne]

Lou,
Miami Springs $35
Biltmore $195
Biltmore has been renovated since I last played it in the 90's and no doubt that comes with a bag drop kid, and maybe even an option to give a caddie another $100....

Miami Springs has very ineresting mix of holes, esp par 3's. Must've been renovated since my times there in the 90's as the greens were in decent shape and seemed to be a more modern grass than the old common bermuda they used to have.
back 9 really good 11-18 outstanding, but front is enjoyable as well
Website pictures absolutely don't show anything-easily the WORST pictures of a good and picturesque golf course I've ever seen

[Lou_Duran]

We stopped by the Biltmore for a drink in late November and the course seemed to be more spiffy.  There is absolutely no way I'd pay the new fees, and judging by the folks I saw practicing and playing late in the day, they must do a lot of couponing.

We also visited Melreese and it too looked much better with a greatly expanded practice facility and signs noting affiliations with other golf  organizations.  I didn't notice the fee structure, but I'd guess it has gone up a bit in the 40 years since I played there.

[PCCraig]

We stopped by the Biltmore for a drink in late November and the course seemed to be more spiffy.  There is absolutely no way I'd pay the new fees, and judging by the folks I saw practicing and playing late in the day, they must do a lot of couponing.

We also visited Melreese and it too looked much better with a greatly expanded practice facility and signs noting affiliations with other golf  organizations.  I didn't notice the fee structure, but I'd guess it has gone up a bit in the 40 years since I played there.

I played the Biltmore a few years ago and found it to be really enjoyable. Granted, I played it as part of a company outing in a scramble, but what I saw impressed me...a pretty fun Donald Ross untypical of southern Florida.

[Chris Johnston]

Short answer to the initial question...Nope.  It could well impact the brands they have, and have good reason to preserve.

While affordable is variable (e.g. affordable to whom?) these gentlemen simply choose to play in the niches they believe is best for them.  As long as they are meeting their own goals and desires, who are we to judge?  I would guess if there was material money to be made in the affordable arena, Mr. Trump (and a host of others) would quickly jump in.  In general, money chases opportunity.
 
Gulfstream sells aircraft that meets the standard of affordable...or they wouldn't sell aircraft very long. 

[Aaron McMaster]

Brent: By no means was I suggesting that Keiser or Trump throw away millions of dollars.  My question was whether there was a way where someone of their means could see affordable golf as an investment to consider.  

Trumps only contribution I see so far are hideous water features.

[Jerry Kluger]

Let me tell you that quality affordable golf is out there - perhaps not in the largest metropolitan areas but it is there.  I live near Raleigh and within a half hour of my home there is quality affordable golf.  You can join the two Tradition courses in the area for $1000 and dues are $165 per month for an individual or $213 a month for a family.  What you get are two really good courses:  Chapel Ridge which is a Fred Couples course with wide fairways, driveable par 4s, risk/reward par 5s and a really good variety of par 3s.  You also get the Preserve which is a Davis Love course with equally good holes and variety but a little tighter and a little tougher.  I am a member of a club right around the corner from my house but I still make an effort to get to these two a few times a year and off season I pay $30 and in season around $50. Now these courses were supposed to be part housing developments that haven't yet succeeded but they still are well maintained and are walkable.

[BCowan]

Jerry,

    Hopefully the houses don't get built, then your oasis could be ruined.  Membership fees would double and you would have yo yo's on the course.  I like your last post

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