[Steve_ Shaffer]

jeffwarne mentioned Encanto in Phoenix. I've played there a few times since moving here full time. Here is what I wrote on another thread last October:

I played William P. Bell's Encanto yesterday. It's a thoroughly enjoyable throwback Par 70 course(5 Par3s & 3 Par5s) opened in 1935 in downtown Phoenix. While some changes have been made to the original design- removal of a lake, grassing some bunkers- the basics remain- greens with character, proper shot placement as angles are important. There's a good mix of holes. Since it is a week away from over seeding, the course was in good condition. It's an  easily walkable flat as a pancake course except for the walk to 10 as the nines are divided by 15th Avenue.

It's not a difficult course as evidenced by these numbers:

Blue:    6404y 69.5/114
White:  6040y 68.5/113

If you're visiting in the winter, it's a good warm up course. Here are some pics:
http://phoenix.gov/recreation/rec/facilities/golf/golfcourses/encanto/gallery/index.html

Not difficult but FUN to play. Good call by Jeff.
For lunch, I recommend The Original Hamburger Works with their charcoal grill down the street at 2801 N. 15th Ave.

www.originalhamburgerworks.com

[DMoriarty]

David,
That's a good point...I have sort of a hybrid take on muni golf.  I have designed and built 5 for various municipalities.  If a town is in a spot where there is no other privately owned public golf course competing then OK...BUT once the private sector comes in they need to make sure each is on the same playing field or shut it down.  

There were some for-profit pay-for-play courses in Los Angeles back in the day, and they were built after a few of the Munis.  Then real estate prices dictated higher and better uses for that land and those courses closed, but by your system the munis would have been long gone by that point.  So then all that would be left would be the privates.  Of course, if it weren't for the zoning laws and open space property tax exemptions/reductions then many of those privates probably would be long gone as well.  The land is worth a hell of a lot more for other uses than it is for golf.   Golf doesn't work too well in metropolitan areas without at least some government involvement.  Especially where people are making rational economic decisions based on the most profitable use of the land.
__________________________________________________

BCowan, the supposition that we'd be in the same situation today had muni golf never existed is too absurd to even address.  

[William_G]

never been a better time to be a golf consumer, if people can stop fixating on what Doral, Streamsong, and Bandon charge

+1

classic overextension of marketing dollars aimed at a decreasing # of avid golfers

so many women so little time

same with equipment, $225 for an optimum driver shaft, that's what she said!

[BCowan]

''Then real estate prices dictated higher and better uses for that land and those courses closed, but by your system the munis would have been long gone by that point''

  I wonder why that is.....

''the supposition that we'd be in the same situation today had muni golf never existed is too absurd to even address.''

     Absurdity would be to think about this from a different perspective then the one you currently have.     

[Sam Morrow]

Does Donald Trump care about the average consumer?

[BCowan]

Sam

   He and or his daughter said in an interview that he only cared about certain high end properties.  Which is his business. 

[Sam Morrow]

Sam

   He and or his daughter said in an interview that he only cared about certain high end properties.  Which is his business. 

Of course, and that was what i was surprised hasn't been said yet. Trump doesn't care about 99.9% of the world, nothing wrong with that but people need to realize than and not look for him to be something he is not.

[BCowan]

I agree completely Sam. 

[BHoover]

Sam

   He and or his daughter said in an interview that he only cared about certain high end properties.  Which is his business.  

Of course, and that was what i was surprised hasn't been said yet. Trump doesn't care about 99.9% of the world, nothing wrong with that but people need to realize than and not look for him to be something he is not.

Let's not pretend that it's just Trump. You think Keiser is any different just because he's less brash and high profile. I don't think any of the current golf moguls care about affordable golf or the "average" Joe Golfer. Trump, Keiser, etc. are in business to make money and, to do that, they focus on the high-end golfing public. it's not wrong. I applaud their business models if they can make a profit in a tough economic market. But let's not pretend that they are focused on growing the game and bringing it to the masses.

[Sam Morrow]

Sam

   He and or his daughter said in an interview that he only cared about certain high end properties.  Which is his business.  

Of course, and that was what i was surprised hasn't been said yet. Trump doesn't care about 99.9% of the world, nothing wrong with that but people need to realize than and not look for him to be something he is not.

Let's not pretend that it's just Trump. You think Keiser is any different just because he's less brash and high profile. I don't think any of the current golf moguls care about affordable golf or the "average" Joe Golfer. Trump, Keiser, etc. are in business to make money and, to do that, they focus on the high-end golfing public. it's not wrong. I applaud their business models if they can make a profit in a tough economic market. But let's not pretend that they are focused on growing the game and bringing it to the masses.

I agree 100%. Keiser gets a pass from most because he's more low key and because he's brought the world Bandon and Cabot but he's no different than Trump.

[BCowan]

Hoover

  We both agree with you. 

[DMoriarty]

Mike Keiser bas been trying to get Bandon Muni built for years.

[Mike_Young]

Ben and Sam,
I'm not sure you two are right regarding Trump and Keiser.
They got into the type of golf they are in because they had the money and they could.  They did not get into it as a main source of making money.  I think they sincerely want to give back to golf thru their courses.  IMHO they are running an experiment and having fun doing so.  I think they are noble to the cause and I think they realize most of their customers are there for a unique experience and not a daily golf round.  It's not that they don't care about the average golfer you two ignorant sluts....

[BHoover]

Mike Keiser bas been trying to get Bandon Muni built for years.

I suppose that's a good thing, but I would imagine his reason for doing so has more to do with the fact that visitors to Bandon Dunes would probably be willing to pay to play any new courses he builds nearby as well. That's more money in his pocket. It makes good business sense to me.

[Sam Morrow]

Ben and Sam,
I'm not sure you two are right regarding Trump and Keiser.
They got into the type of golf they are in because they had the money and they could.  They did not get into it as a main source of making money.  I think they sincerely want to give back to golf thru their courses.  IMHO they are running an experiment and having fun doing so.  I think they are noble to the cause and I think they realize most of their customers are there for a unique experience and not a daily golf round.  It's not that they don't care about the average golfer you two ignorant sluts....

I agree, I'm actually a Trump fan, so what if he's a blowhard. As for the ignorant slut comment.......it takes one to know one.

[Sam Morrow]

Mike Keiser bas been trying to get Bandon Muni built for years.

I suppose that's a good thing, but I would imagine his reason for doing so has more to do with the fact that visitors to Bandon Dunes would probably be willing to pay to play any new courses he builds nearby as well. That's more money in his pocket. It makes good business sense to me.

I agree and if he builds a hotel next door that he owns. I say good for him, he's found a monopoly. I'd do the same if I were him.

[BHoover]

Mike Keiser bas been trying to get Bandon Muni built for years.

I suppose that's a good thing, but I would imagine his reason for doing so has more to do with the fact that visitors to Bandon Dunes would probably be willing to pay to play any new courses he builds nearby as well. That's more money in his pocket. It makes good business sense to me.

I agree and if he builds a hotel next door that he owns. I say good for him, he's found a monopoly. I'd do the same if I were him.

Bingo. Even if these guys are having fun getting into the golf business, let's not pretend they are some sort of philanthropists. They want to make money. Otherwise, if they aren't in it to make money, then they ought to cut their prices, generate huge losses and enheir milking their tax shelters.

[Mike_Young]

[ As for the ignorant slut comment.......it takes one to know one.

now my feelings are hurt...

[Sam Morrow]

[ As for the ignorant slut comment.......it takes one to know one.

now my feelings are hurt...

Well you started it

[BCowan]

Ben and Sam,
I'm not sure you two are right regarding Trump and Keiser.
They got into the type of golf they are in because they had the money and they could.  They did not get into it as a main source of making money.  I think they sincerely want to give back to golf thru their courses.  IMHO they are running an experiment and having fun doing so.  I think they are noble to the cause and I think they realize most of their customers are there for a unique experience and not a daily golf round.  It's not that they don't care about the average golfer you two ignorant sluts....

    Keiser story seems much more pure, he took huge risks building walking only courses in the middle of nowhere and people thought he was crazy, yeah he had deep pockets.  He was more interested in building courses that weren't ''Current Fashion sets the Pace".  Did he hire Fazio?  Trump has been following Keiser's lead!  Trump said when real estate went in the tank, he started getting heavily involved with more courses.  I think he has the bug now!  I don't care what the two of them do, they are trying to make money.  Trump more or less wants to compete with other ballers.  Yeah, I think Keiser is a revolutionary with deep pockets.  I don't expect them to care about average joe blow.  There are a lot of people who don't play at private clubs that take bandon trips, more power to them, whatever works.  Don't give me this philanthropy nonsense!  

[William_G]

Mike Keiser bas been trying to get Bandon Muni built for years.

I suppose that's a good thing, but I would imagine his reason for doing so has more to do with the fact that visitors to Bandon Dunes would probably be willing to pay to play any new courses he builds nearby as well. That's more money in his pocket. It makes good business sense to me.

-1

The $ going to make Bandon Links a reality is off the charts.

Sounds like you may not have you facts straight about Bandon, the remote Southern Oregon Coast. "lonely beauty"

The "everyone is in it to make money is not reality" as he is pouring a solid 8 figures into Bandon Links just to open the door.

But maybe divesting the money he has made is in itself a strategy.

Thanks

[Mike_Young]

[ As for the ignorant slut comment.......it takes one to know one.

now my feelings are hurt...

Well you started it

I fell like doing something really mean like shipping  a golf car to Melvin.

[Sam Morrow]

[ As for the ignorant slut comment.......it takes one to know one.

now my feelings are hurt...

Well you started it

I fell like doing something really mean like shipping  a golf car to Melvin.

That's petty. 

[BHoover]

Mike Keiser bas been trying to get Bandon Muni built for years.

I suppose that's a good thing, but I would imagine his reason for doing so has more to do with the fact that visitors to Bandon Dunes would probably be willing to pay to play any new courses he builds nearby as well. That's more money in his pocket. It makes good business sense to me.

-1

The $ going to make Bandon Links a reality is off the charts.

Sounds like you may not have you facts straight about Bandon, the remote Southern Oregon Coast. "lonely beauty"

The "everyone is in it to make money is not reality" as he is pouring a solid 8 figures into Bandon Links just to open the door.

But maybe divesting the money he has made is in itself a strategy.

Thanks

I am merely speculating. Admittedly, I know nothing of Keiser's strategy or intentions. But as a realist, it seems like maybe he's engaged in some elaborate tax planning--generate big losses, expense deductions and shelter income from his other ventures. And then there's the good PR he can generate by doing something decent for the local community.

Honestly, I have no idea. But you don't think the guy wants to make money? Put capital in to build a quality product and then charge visitors to play it? Seems like a business plan to me.

[BCowan]

Brian

   I believe he did the muni to help him do the land switch to build the next course.  It was good PR and good for the community and himself.  Win win i would say! 

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()