[Jerry Kluger]

We all love and certainly appreciate what Donald Trump, Mike Keiser, Mosaic, etc., have done for the game but is there a realistic possibility of someone taking up the cause of affordable golf?  It has recently been pointed out on GCA how expensive it is to play courses like Streamsong, Doral, Pinehurst, Bandon, etc. so they are not going to attract the casual golfer and most serious golfers cannot afford to make them a regular stop. So can quality affordable golf work today or are the costs just too high?  You can certainly find a local community that is willing to subsidize a golf course because of its benefits including recreational as well as green space.  But can you make the case to someone like Keiser or Trump that here is a plan for you to take these courses and keep them affordable but still make money?  I attended Richard Mandell's symposium and Ron Whitten demonstrated that no matter how little you pay for a course you can still lose money as a course operator.  So again, is there a way to propose to a wealthy businessman that affordable golf can be a profitable venture?

[Steven Blake]

Why have affordable golf if that means it cuts into profit margin? If the market dictates what the price will be then who can blame them. A round of golf is worth what the public is willing to pay to play it.


Steve Blake


 

[Joe Hancock]

I think the big question here is:

Affordable for who?

I keep hearing (on here) that many think $150 or less is affordable golf, and I keep wondering "for who?"

I often think of the folks who want to play golf 3 or more times a week, and that's what seems to be the struggling part of the market nowadays. Golf has cut back to club golf and destination golf, at least here in the upper Midwest.

As far as wealthy business people making golf affordable, I don't know. I can't relate to the folks who have enough money that they can buy a golf course and not be interested in a return on investment.

Joe

[Eric Smith]

I think it is unfair to lump Bandon and Streamsong together as being deemed unaffordable. Bandon still offers rounds on any of their 4 courses for $75*. Replays for $40. No caddies (or forecaddies) required. $100 rooms in the lodge. There are no such options at Streamsong. Not even close.

*Dec & Jan

[jeffwarne]

Affordable golf  .  Is everywhere

In the past 3 weeks I played a great course in Phoenix for $22

And possibly my favorite course in South Florida for $35 and another good course f or $34.50 on a weekend morning
all in prime season

Don't know what you guys are expecting

[Sean_A]

Jerry

Am I to take it you want world class golf at affordable prices?

Ciao

[Lou_Duran]

I can't relate to the folks who have enough money that they can buy a golf course and not be interested in a return on investment.

I don't know Joe, if I had $10 Million in the bank and owned a facility like the Weathermax thread describes with a basis of $1 Million, debt free, I'd take a chance running it at B-E provided that I was improving it a bit each year (or at least not allowing it to deteriorate) and it was serving a useful purpose in the community.  For sure, it would be a labor of love, but there are wealthy people out there who don't run things solely on the basis of maximizing the rate of return or ensuring that they don't leave $1 on the table.

To answer Jerry's question, I don't think it is possible today in any major metro area to provide affordable golf ($25-30 gf, $200-$300 monthlies) and make serious money.  Some mom and pops with lots of sweat equity might eke a good living in some very limited areas, but the opportunity costs for serious capitalists would be too high to devote much effort to golf.

[Steven Blake]

Jeff,

You speak of playing golf for $22 and $35 which is awesome but are they making any money or at least breaking even?  Revenue has to exceed expenses.  Any idea how many rounds those courses do?

Steve Blake

[Jerry Kluger]

My question is whether you can attract smart investment money into affordable golf.  There is some affordable golf out there but I believe more of it is needed to grow the game.  But there is also the economics of it and you need someone with money to get behind something like that.  By no means am I talking about world class golf but certainly decent quality golf is what the goal is.  I pessimistic about the game if the only courses being built are far too expensive for the vast majority of golfers. 

Eric: Bandon may be affordable at $75 but that is for someone willing to take the chance on the weather in the winter and spend the time and money to get there.  

[Brent Hutto]

The course in my area that's about 18 bucks to play probably just about breaks even. But it's been there for ages, there was no debt incurred to build it way back when and over the last couple decades they've gradually sold off house lots all around the course, which used to be out in the middle of nowhere.

So for about 40 years they've broken even on the operational balance sheet while providing employment/salary for the original owner and now his son. After a while they were able to cash in with the house lots and now they're probably back to about break even after drawing a salary.

I think that's where your 20, 30, 40 dollar rounds are available. I'm no business person like friend Lou but I'm pretty sure you aren't going to walk in from scratch and spend several million dollars to build a new course that's expected to generate $22 green fees. Not anywhere in this country, not today. That niche will be served by the existing stock of courses.

[BCowan]

Jerry

    The Trump and Keiser properties are very expensive.  Miami, ocean views, and nice hotels cost money.  When Flat screen TV's came out they where really expensive and dropped in years to come.  Trump is not interested in nothing but high end properties.  Keiser I don't know.  Why can't a bunch of people pool there money together and create a great affordable course by an up and coming archie?  $50-80 green fees are profitable, given that the land is affordable and you have money to advertise.  There is affordable quality golf you just have to search for it.  We can argue maint. expenses all day, but you can maint a course really well for not much money in certain areas of the country.  It would be great if more people posted affordable solid tracks on GCA.  

[BCowan]

Bandon Crossing.

http://www.bandoncrossings.com/

[John Kavanaugh]

You can buy a unlimited season pass in Evansville, IN that includes all four courses for $1000.  http://www.vanderburghgov.org/Index.aspx?page=571 The only reason I pay more to play other places is because of the value it is so crowded that no one plays there anymore.

[Jim Sherma]

To answer Jerry's question, I don't think it is possible today in any major metro area to provide affordable golf ($25-30 gf, $200-$300 monthlies) and make serious money.  Some mom and pops with lots of sweat equity might eke a good living in some very limited areas, but the opportunity costs for serious capitalists would be too high to devote much effort to golf.

Isn't this the role that municipal courses used to play? providing a service to the community so that those that can't afford private golf (and I consider high end destination golf to more private in nature than public based on the financial hurdle required). As a public option the idea was that no one needed to make a profit and the return to the community was sufficient. High-end resort golf is not mining the vein of consumers that are concerned about "affordable" golf. Myrtle Beach, Ocean City MD and the like are that demographic's options.

I am very fortunate to live where there are very acceptable and affordable public options, both privately owned and municipal/county owned. I can think of 4 or 5 pretty decent courses within 20 minutes of my house that I could play regularly for under $35 and depending on timing under $25. I choose to belong to a club because of the convenience, the quality of the courses, no walking restrictions and the social aspect that includes my family's use of the facilities. The higher per round costs are made up for by the above within my decision making analysis.

[Jerry Kluger]

I know there is affordable golf out there and much of it is very good but will it sustain itself?  Is $75 affordable golf - perhaps for the casual golfer but for anyone who gets enthusiastic about the game that can become very expensive.  How about for junior golfers - how much is affordable.  

[BCowan]

Jerry

    There are courses that sell season passes for Juniors.  My friends learned the game through caddying.  One top rated course I worked at in the bagroom and we had playing and practice privileges.  That is how we can grow the game in a positive way, but that is frowned upon by many on here. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Jerry

    There are courses that sell season passes for Juniors.  My friends learned the game through caddying.  One top rated course I worked at in the bagroom and we had playing and practice privileges.  That is how we can grow the game in a positive way, but that is frowned upon by many on here. 

When you grew up there weren't so many damn old people like your parents clogging up the fairways day in and day out.  There just ain't room for the help no more.  When I was a kid there were four women and two old men who maybe played three times a week.  On a nine hole course it was nothing to have 20 tweens out playing, learning and loving the game.  Doesn't work now with modern medicine and early retirement.

[Mark Fedeli]

What were the rates at Bandon when it first opened? Any significant difference from what they are now? I'd always heard that it was planned to be much more affordable before the market spoke as loudly as it did.

[Brent Hutto]

Jerry,

It will either last or it won't. Trying to interest deep-pockets folks like Mike Keiser in throwing away few million dollars per course pro bono is hardly going to make a dent in the economics of the situation.

There's a certain amount of land with golf courses built on it today. Some portion of that is being used to offer $18 or $22 or $35 green fee golf on what's probably at best a break-even basis once the land and course is long since paid off. That amount of land and that number of courses is not going to increase under any conceivable (to me) future economic scenario.

So golf at those prices will last in any locale for just as long as that fixed stock of land and courses exists. Once the last $22 courses in an area is plowed under to build houses or strip malls, there won't be any more $22 golf in that area. My conclusion is it might last the better part of my remaining lifetime in some areas, it won't last out the decade in others and some places it hasn't existed for a long, long time already.

Without some source of subsidy (tax dollars, residential "amenity" dollars or sugar-daddy handouts) even at your $75 price point you'er down to a limited list of areas where someone could actually buy land, hire an architect (not gonna happen) and build a course from the ground up based on the expectation of $75 per round during the season. And as has been pointed out, I personally know plenty of white-collar and professional class type folks who don't consider $75 affordable or reasonable at all for a round of golf. Not to mention the folks getting by on less than the household median income.

[Jim Sherma]

It's the Arnie/Eisenhower-era municipal golfer that has been aging and not being replaced. These are the guys that played every weekend, worked factory/union types of jobs and lived a mid-century middle class life. They were the backbone of the muni course that I grew up on. The next generation of guys have not been sufficient in numbers to replace them. The types of lives they could afford to live are becoming less and less prevalent and the time and activities that those income streams could afford are disappearing as well. What is affordable? Depends on where you fall on the income ladder. Golf was a mass-market activity when the income distribution of the 1950’s through the 1980’s existed. It was an elite activity given the income distribution of the 1900’s through the 1930’s and we have returned to that era but with legacy facilities and players still holding on in the middle and lower income brackets.

This is not meant to be a political statement in any way but rather an economic assessment of the history.

[BCowan]

''When you grew up there weren't so many damn old people like your parents clogging up the fairways day in and day out.  There just ain't room for the help no more.  When I was a kid there were four women and two old men who maybe played three times a week.  On a nine hole course it was nothing to have 20 tweens out playing, learning and loving the game.  Doesn't work now with modern medicine and early retirement.''

   It does work, this was in 2000 and they still do it today.  Are you saying your course does 280 rounds a day?  You don't have slots open after 3pm at the Head Pro's discretion to allow a kid who actually works now a days to play golf?  Please..  Many Florida courses allow their cart boys playing privileges along with the job.  

[Ronald Montesano]

And to piggy-back on what Jim Sherma says above, the muni was their country club. That generation took civics classes in school, joined the scouts and lived, breathed and preached nationalism. Supporting the town golf course lined up perfectly with their approach to God, Country and Golf.

[Steven Blake]

Hell back in the 1950's and 60's Eisenhower used to play golf here in Wisconsin at Muni's and low-mid level publics.

What are greens and grounds costs? Typically that is your big expense the bigger that number is the more revenue you need to re-coop. But if the course is in bad condition not many will play it ... so its a balancing act.


Steve Blake

[John Kavanaugh]

''When you grew up there weren't so many damn old people like your parents clogging up the fairways day in and day out.  There just ain't room for the help no more.  When I was a kid there were four women and two old men who maybe played three times a week.  On a nine hole course it was nothing to have 20 tweens out playing, learning and loving the game.  Doesn't work now with modern medicine and early retirement.''

   It does work, this was in 2000 and they still do it today.  Are you saying your course does 280 rounds a day?  You don't have slots open after 3pm at the Head Pro's discretion to allow a kid who actually works now a days to play golf?  Please..  Many Florida courses allow their cart boys playing privileges along with the job.  

I'm talking about the nine hole course where I grew up and people work for a living.  The course is full all day.  In the morning with retired teachers, bankers and shift workers.  In the afternoon with working teachers, bankers and their friends who don't play until they get off work.  My point being that in the last 30 years the golfing demographic has drastically changed.  There just isn't room for non members to play.

Nigel Islam visited me to play this year, either December or January, and the course was full mid week.  It is astonishing.

I played everyday from 1968 until 1978 and the course was empty during working hours because back in the day everyone worked until they were physically broken or dead.  It is amazing how old the golfing public is today.  Maybe it is because old people where I live can't afford to move to Florida.  We can't bury them fast enough.

[Jerry Kluger]

Brent: By no means was I suggesting that Keiser or Trump throw away millions of dollars.  My question was whether there was a way where someone of their means could see affordable golf as an investment to consider.  

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