[DMoriarty]

I am trying to think of holes where many or most golfers go for the sucker play.

By sucker play I mean the shot (or shots) which, statistically speaking, have less chance of producing the lowest score.    

Here are some ideas:

CPC 16 (talked to death, not trying to do it again.)
Riviera 10.  
Augusta 13 (both shots)

Pretty blatant ideas, but I cant think of others although I know they must exist.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

DMoriarty,

As OW said, I can resist anything but temptation.

Isn't that proof of architectural success  ?

Luring or tempting golfers to try shots that may be beyond their abilities ?

Throw in trying to drive the greens at # 1 and # 2 at NGLA and # 1 and # 9 at GCGC.

[Mike_Cirba]

David;

The 9th hole at Torresdale-Frankford CC in Philly (Ross) is a 475 yard par four, with a creek crossing just in front of the green, requiring a full carry second shot.

If the hole was called a par five, 8 of 10 golfers would wisely lay up on their second.  However, since it is called a par four on the card, 8 of 10 golfers try the carry on their second shot, leading to the results one would expect.

We often criticize the concept of par on this board, and I'm one who recognizes that from the player's perspective, it an absurdity and an oddity which should mean nothing.  However, in the hands of a talented architect, the concept of par, especially on "half-par" holes like the 9th at TF, it is an integral part of their repertoire.

[DMoriarty]

Patrick.

Yes, I think it a sign of architectural success.  

You mentioned that "some of these holes lure or tempt shots that may be beyond their abilities."  True, but I think there is at least one other architectural method to entice golfers to make the wrong decision: lure golfers to hit a shot which is well within their ability, but which ultimately hurts their chances, even if they do execute.  

Mike, what do you think would happen in these situations if the course in question had no specified par?

[Chris Perry]

17 at Morgan Creek

8 and 18 at Northview

[Gyrogolf]

Two that come immediately to mind are on the tee shots at my home club.

#4 and #5 on Olympic Lake feature *reverse camber* fairways that force the longer hitter to move the ball rightto left (#4) and then left to right (#5) off the tee or face serious penalty.

On #4, hanging out a long curveball to the right guarantees the ball bounding into the trees. The only escape is a another long cut - often foiled by an expansive bunker on the top left side of the fairway (short of the green) exactly where one might miss it if the ball failed to turn.

#5 is a different matter entirely, because there is the famous *Flat Top* tree waiting on the left side of the fairway in exactlyh the spot where a tee shot unsuccessfully trying to slide one around the corner will end up.

Of course, it is possible to just lay up off either tee and face the longer shot up the hill on #4 and from about 220 yards on #5, but what fun would that be?    

[Chris Kane]

Portsea #13
244m uphill tee-shot.  Although its not the smart play unless you're very long and very straight, most players fire straight for the green, leading to more 5's than 3's.

[JohnV]

Mike Cirba's comments about the 9th at Torresdale-Frankford apply to every par 5 that the USGA calls a par 4 at the US Open.  And the suckers are supposed to be professionals at this sport.

[THuckaby2]

Dave writes:

"True, but I think there is at least one other architectural method to entice golfers to make the wrong decision: lure golfers to hit a shot which is well within their ability, but which ultimately hurts their chances, even if they do execute."

He seems to be describing a shot the golfer CAN easily pull off, that he is enticed to try, and when he succeeds, it hurts his chances for the best score on the golf hole.  That is, the architect has somehow hidden what REALLY is the best play....

Damn that would be very cool.  Of course it would only work once, for a golfer of any intelligence anyway.  I just wish I could think of an example!

Maybe trying to drive the green on #18 at The Old Course?

Given normal conditions, normal visitor tee, normal wind (helping to some degree), it's a shot that most golfers can pretty easily pull off, or so they think.  The fairway is also miles wide, and although there is OB right, it seems pretty easy to aim at the clock and still reach the putting surface...

BUT then the trap is sprung... leave it in or anywhere near the valley of sin - which is technically "on the green", so he has "executed" the shot - and I'd guess your chances to make 3 are a bit less than if you are back 60-70 yards and have a wider choice of shot types.... It is really a very tough two-putt from in or near that valley....

Maybe this isn't the best example, but I think it works.

And just as it takes a strong will, or a slavish devotion to achievement of the best possible score, to resist the temptation of one's single shot at glory on 16 Cypress (given how the vast majority of golfers get but one chance at that shot), it would take the same will/devotion not to just go for it on 18 TOC.  Driving that green, with all the tourists watching, is one heck of a thrill.

So maybe we ought to take "famous" courses like this out of the equation?  The thought process does change when one is thinking "I'm only here once."  Or at least it does for almost everyone!

TH

ps to Dave M. - an answer to the last IM in our exchange would be nice, if only to say "OK, I read it."  

[THuckaby2]

"Sucker shots".

Hmmmm....

Is that how we're summing up "True, but I think there is at least one other architectural method to entice golfers to make the wrong decision: lure golfers to hit a shot which is well within their ability, but which ultimately hurts their chances, even if they do execute."

If so, then I agree with nearly all of your assessments, Mr. Irons. I'll just comment on the ones I disagree with (with the added note that you are OBVIOUSLY correct re 16 CPC):

7 Sand Hills:  is that really a sucker play?  Seems pretty easy for a player of any length to drive that green, and the miss anywhere near the green isn't all that bad.  I was in the bunker left, swale right, and each were doable shots... I wasn't sitting there wishing I was 100 yards back... but hey, my memory is hazy, what am I missing?

17 CPC - maybe for YOU driver is a sucker play, without a doubt.  There's a very tiny window to get a clear shot left of the tree, and you'd have to throttle down to stay SHORT enough to hit it, given normal helping wind.  But for us mortals, driver works out pretty damn well... I can't go through, and a good shot left gets me right in the window.  Of course the studlier play is 3iron short right of the tree, but I digress.

18 TOC - my thought there is it just so perfectly fits Dave's definition - you think you've achieved success but you really haven't.  Oh hell yes, the penalty is just 4 instead of three, so it's not a big deal... But I believe outside that it does fir the definition, as players of any skill are really thinking 3 for that golf hole.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Hmmmmm...

This from someone who professes to be a dufus with the wedges?

Ok, you've sold me.  Hell, I believe I only made one 3 in the several tries I had on the hole, so obviously my tack of just going for it wasn't working!

I'm still thinking a chip from short right is easier than a 100 yard wedge, and it's pretty easy to get it to that swale right of the green.... But of course, that shows my BIAS - where the hell do you think a missed drive goes for me?

Short right.  

TH

[Forrest Richardson]

Mathematically, about a quarter million suckers could tee off every minute during daylight hours during the summer months in America; or about 350,000 worldwide. This assumes 14 people per course being able to tee off every minute during times when the course is busy.

[THuckaby2]

Shivas:

I'll buy that.  I guess it comes down to confidence in touch shots around the green... My thinking is one could even PUTT from down in that swale, but you're right, that would require some good fortune so in the end, what one is likely to get will be too "touchy" of a shot compared to the full pitch.

It's a close call.

What we need here is in our next foursome match, YOU hit the tee shot.  I don't care where you leave me, I'll get you fairly close.  We're gonna make three.  I know you can putt when you're doing so for the team.  

But if I'm hitting the tee shot, we punt and I get you to 90, whatever your favorite distance is.

That kinda encapsulates our issues on this golf hole, huh?

TH

[THuckaby2]

OK Shivas, then it is truly settled.  Remember how foursomes works - we pick at the start who gets odds, who gets evens for tee shots.  It is very clear we want you doing the odds.  Oh, we might lose our chance to drive #8, but we are talking certain birdie on 7, and I'm not exactly disappointed in having you hit on 1...

Hmmmm... we kinda want your tee shot on 16 though.... 2 couldn't hurt.. 14...

Oh hell, we were just supposed to be talking about 7.  Never mind.  

TH

[THuckaby2]

That makes great sense re 16, coach.  Yeah, I CAN get it to where you can reach in two maybe also... But in any case your wisdom is sound there.

So ok, let's assume you get the odds.  We're cool on 1.

We might have trouble on 2.  I assume we're playing back tees, and man, that's a big carry for me.  I gotta go a bit left... Should be ok though but this could be troublesome.

3 - no hassles

4 - no hassles

5 - no hassles

6 - no hassles

7 - the big trump.  We want you hitting this tee shot.

8 - dammit, we'd like to have you hitting this one also.  But riddle me this, what's your percentage of reaching this green from the back tee?  We may end up ok here also... I'll get you a wedge....

9 - no hassles

10 - no hassles

11 - no hassles

12 - no hassles

13 - just get it somewhere near the green, my friend.

14 - hmmmm... we'd damn well like to have your tee shot here also.  But I think we'll live.  I'll get it out there where you can have a whack at it, kinda like 16.

15 - no hassles

16 - well-stated already.

17 - just get it near the green, my friend.

18 - bear with the much longer, worse angle you're gonna have as opposed to what you're used to!

Whaddya think?  My memory might be a little faulty....

TH

[THuckaby2]

Shivas:

Dammit, in the end you are right again.  We ARE better off overall with you on the evens.  I just don't want that kinda pressure on 7, that's all!

TH

[THuckaby2]

I cannot believe my ears.  Felix talk from Oscar?

Actually I can, because I know you make damn good sense about all of this, and that too makes great sense.

My only thought is realistically, we don't have many eagle chances at SH and this would be one of them.  Thus the self-imposed pressure on 7.  But hell, we'll be 3-4 up in our match by then anyway so I'll relax.  And it likely won't take eagle to win the hole anyway, for all the reasons you state.

You know what?  The bottom line here is that 7 is one hell of a great golf hole.

Back to our match, though.  The pressure will come if the match is still alive, the wind is howling, and I have to hit the tee shot on 17....

TH

[THuckaby2]

And you know what?

By this token, the layup would not be exhilirating at all - it's not great mental feat to do it, it's easy and makes sense and not many people really can reach that green, so it's not like you're giving up this once in a lifetime opportunity or anything.

I fully expect the real Felix to go bombs away on that hole.  What point is proven by laying up?

TH

[DMoriarty]

Only a real sucker would say that CPC 16 never plays as a sucker hole.

[THuckaby2]

Agreed, DM.  If anything CPC 16 is the ULTIMATE sucker hole.

What takes it out of this equation really, though, is the "once in a lifetime" element, caused by the mystique of the golf course, which in turn is caused by how difficult access is, it's extremely high ranking and it's close but yet so far nature given so much of it can be seen from 17 Mile Drive and is seen in pictures.

Obviously if any of us played it in competition, or if we played it enough for this once in a lifetime element to be gone, the thinking would be wholly different.

It does take a strong will, or a slavish devotion to score, or some other interesting way of thinking, to avoid succumbing to temptation on this golf hole.  And that would all just depend on what you want out of your round at that course.

We've said all this before, I know.  It just bears repeating.  It is a very fun topic.

TH

[Tom_Doak]

The second shot on the 18th at High Pointe.  There are 100 balls in the lake for every one which has reached the green in two.  It's a terrible hole because the tee shot doesn't work, but from the landing area to the green it's not too shabby, and in truth a lot of the people who hate it just hate it because they're suckers!

[DMoriarty]

Wouldn't that be a great name for a golf hole?  Sucker!  

Gil and Geoff were a little more subtle than this when he named the 12th at Rustic "Temptation" but the point is the same I think.  

TH, when it is playing firm enough and fast enough, RC 12 is is an example of a hole which plays to my second description of "sucker hole."   The beauty of the hole is that most of the people who are repeatedly suckered dont really ever figure it out.

Shivas, you've come a long way since your initial pronouncements on this hole.  If you back peddle any further you may find yourself tumbling into the little ocean inlet in front of the 5th green.  

[DMoriarty]

Wait a second!  since when am I backing down.

Shivas, I cant stop laughing enough to find all the quotes I could, but here are a few random ones from the end of April, beginining of  May:

So you're -3 at CPC going to 16 your first time there.  OK, first, wake up from your dream.  Now that you're awake  , whaddya do?

The wind is howling.  Call it 40 mph.  At least 3 clubs, probably 4 or 5.

I say you've got to bust out a wood and take a thump at it, even it it's a dicey proposition.  I don't care if you're in a match. I don't care if you're pressed 8 ways.  I don't care if it's a 1 in 10 shot.  You gotta do it.

 A 6 club wind doens't affect the driver as much as more lofted clubs.

Bingo, Tom.  If I came back to Chicago and told people that I laid up to try to get up and down for 3, there better have been an 8 club wind in my face or I'm toast as far as lifetime ribbing goes.  Every go/no go decision for the rest of my life would be preceeded by "go for it you big pussy!  Or are you going to puss out like you did at Cypress?"

Come to think of it, I'd rather pump a couple into the Pacific than face that.  Put me in the "never lay up" camp, even into a 70 mph mini-hurricane. I'd bust out the driver and try it anyway (perhaps secretly hoping for a duck hook, but trying nonetheless   )

It is the archetypal quest of man to defeat nature's attempts to stop him from his goal.  THAT is why you do it.  "Because you must."

Funny stuff.  Watch your step.  

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Question to board:

What is "Laying up?"

KLP

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