[James Boon]

On another thread, Sean Arble compares the style of two heathland courses thus:

If you want rugged, proper heathland golf (yet still refined), Walton Heath is the place.  If you want a genteel parkland course pretending to be a heathland course, St Georges Hill is the place.  Both are of exceptional quality.
Ciao

This reminded me of a similar discussion last year along the lines of: Ganton is the rugged, northern, hardworking championship course, whilst Alwoodley is the more refined, southern, members course. (Or something like that).

The distinction between lowland heath and upland Heath is a botanical one I believe, but starts to create a distinction between two types of heathland course. As I think of the heathland courses I've played, most fit into either the "rugged" or "genteel" category and I'm starting to think I prefer categorisation based more on the spirit of the place, rather than its strict botany?

Do people agree that such a distinction between two types exist!

Is there another sub category of heathland I've missed?

If such a distinction exists, which is your favourite?

Lastly, thinking of another very distinct type of course (parkland, outside of its strict sense, is used so widely as a term that it's tricky to categorise) what about links courses? They can all be pretty rugged when the weather turns, but I think such a difference  as heathland courses have is less obvious? Or is it?

Cheers,

James

[Jon Wiggett]

James,

I find Ganton to be closer to a Links course where Alwoodley is more heathland but on sand/peat rather than the sand/sand of the London heaths.

You are right though in the rougher or more gentile atmosphere of courses. You can also use members course, players course, business course or visitors course all of which have distinctive atmospheres for their chosen users.

Jon

[Tony_Muldoon]

Darwin seemd to think most highly of the one's he called "Pine and Brich".   However over time this is every bit as much a maintenace, as soil issue.

The Walton Heath of 15 years ago was a different animal than it is today and I think Sean is really reffering to the maintenace when he calls SGH Parkland.  He's made the same point about the current set up at the Addington. 

[Sean_A]

Spangles

Just speaking of big guns.

Yes, long term maintenance has altered the soils and turf of heathland courses so that is the root of distinctions. SGH is a glorified parkland course and at best, all the others are some form hybrid parkland/heathland.  But I also think bunkering, trees and other features play a role in distinctions.  WH is London's true (or truest) heathland course for all the reasons cited above.  But to be fair, we may be comparing the two extremes in London. Most other in London fall somewhere between the two.

Move north and Woodhall and Ganton certainly stand out as more rugged than most if not all of the southern counterparts.  Woodhall is a bit compromised by all the trees - making it more like a parkland course than its should be.  Alwoodley probably falls somewhere in the middle of the scale.  Notts likely a bit closer to WH than SGH - the rugged terrain really sets this course apart.   

Strangely, or not, I like Alwoodley the best of the lot by some margin.  I think the course offers more room to play than most.  Trees are not really an issue so wind plays it part.  The greens like the course are big.  The course is very attractive.  If we are counting Woking as a big gun, its my second favourite.  No question Woking is much more genteel than rugged, but the greens blow all other heathland greens (with the exception of Beau Desert) out of the water.  The bunkering too is more thoughtful than most heathlands. 

How do folks feel about New Zealand?  It certrainly has a throwback feel, if not quite rugged. 

Ciao

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I think all these courses are different, no two are alike. Consider St Andrews: 4 old courses side by side, Old, New, Jubilee, Eden, and very little similarity between them. Same with Sunningdale Old and New, Walton Heath Old and New, Royal St George's and Prince's, Woking, Worplesdon and West Hill....

[Adam Lawrence]

Alwoodley I would classify as moorland, or at least upland heath, rather than the lowland heath a la Surrey.

[Paul Gray]

Since we're doing this, I personally find New Zealand a little too gentile for my tastes. To each their own.

What are we calling Hindhead?

Veering into any form of loose definition of links is always, to my mind, marketing BS waiting to happen. Ganton may well draw fair comparisons but anything which allows the faux links to claim any form of title concerns me. 'Maritime heath' is the beginning of a slippery slope. Let's remember that a links is a links. The term is historic and specifically refers to the sandy land with no agricultural value which links the coast with the arable farm land. Anything you can grow a potato on is excluded automatically.

[Sean_A]

Speaking of moorland and heathland (there really isn't practically speaking any difference)

Genteel, pretty, Pine and Birch Heathlands:
Sunningdale Old
Berkshire red and Blue
St George's Hill (maintained closer to Parkland but would probably more closely resemble the conditions at the Berkshire or Sunningdale with a changed maintenance culture?)
Wentworth (as above)
New Zealand
Swinley
Woking
Worpy
West Hill
Liphook
Alwoodley (has elements of both)
Sunningdale New (has elements of both)
What about Little Aston?  Its a parkland, but plays and feels more like a heathland than some heathland courses.  


More Open, rugged, firmer and wind swept - have a more natural feel:
Hankley Common
Walton Heath Old and New
Notts
Beau Desert - irrespective of tree encroachment
Sunningdale New (has elements of both)
Woodhall Spa
Ganton is a bit different but I still find it very odd to say its a links  .
Not sure about Addy.  Like Ganton its a bit unique.  The design is rugged over rugged terrain, but the presentation is 100% parkland.
Hindhead - though not a major player heathland

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

West Sussex - Elements of both
Moortown - Elements of both
Royal Ashdown Forest - Elements of both

[Ally Mcintosh]

West Sussex - Elements of both
Moortown - Elements of both
Royal Ashdown Forest - Elements of both

West Sussex is probably closer to the first category. Great course!

Super course.... And no doubt it's one of the prettiest.... But they've done a little clearing and just like Moortown, it has that area (11-14 on both courses) where you are on wide open heath....

Ally

[Jon Wiggett]

Alwoodley I would classify as moorland, or at least upland heath, rather than the lowland heath a la Surrey.

+1. As said in my first post Alwoodley is a sand/peat soil making the courses background colour a tad darker than the sandier lowland heaths around London.

Jon

[James Boon]

Thanks for the replies everyone. It seems there is a general agreement  of two key subcategories but obviously such pigeon holing is not always that simple. When I wrote this the other night, every heathland course I could think of very neatly fit into one or the other. However then someone reminds me of Moortown and I can't quite decide where to put it?

I still think though that moving away from the normal definitions of lowland and upland heath or moorland, and using categories based on their character, presentation and general spirit of place, or genius loci if you are feeling pretentious, probably works better for most people. It moves away from the botanical and geological and towards what uneducated people can see, feel and experience for themselves much easier.

For what it's worth I think I'm happier on the more rugged courses, but that's probably my Notts bias coming through  but that doesn't mean I don't love a day of genteel heathland golf!

As for a few other specifics...

I find it hard to think of Woodhall as rugged. Sure the bunkers are tough and it opens up in parts, but in its current presentation, it's certainly feels closer to the genteel courses to me. I fully understand that Ganton is closer to a links, but as with Sean, I find it hard to think of it that way being so far removed from the coast, but if we are pulling it into this inland sand based discussion, it's certainly rugged! Lastly Little Aston is certainly in the genteel category, even if as with some of the London courses it closer to parkland than its heathland origins.

Cheers,

James

[Adam Lawrence]

Basically, Brian likes clubs frequented by poshos best 

[Adam Lawrence]

Social climber.

[Mark Pearce]

Brian, surely the clubhouse at The Berkshire is more modern than West Hill's?  I'm not convinced The Berkshire properly belongs in your firt group.

[Mark Chaplin]

Cafe.....what next jeans? I'm going to speak to the new President, you may know him!!

[Michael Felton]

Brian, surely the clubhouse at The Berkshire is more modern than West Hill's?  I'm not convinced The Berkshire properly belongs in your firt group.

Mark, the only thing about the Berkshire that is out of whack with the first group is that horrible refurb of the member's bar and new "cafe" style area. It's a real shame, I would have loved to have seen what was there before.

In all other respects, I think the Berkshire gives a feeling of a very old school club.

Isn't the Berkshire supposed to be famous for its lunch? I'm pretty sure it used to be. They used to hold a local PGA club pros event there (I think it was the PGA Alliance). Always had the longest waiting list of all of them and they weren't too fussed about the golf if memory serves.

[Mark Pearce]

Actually, I think the Berkshire lunch is every bit as good as the RSG lunch (though I have only ever had that once).  Not very far behind HCEG, in fact, which remains the best golf club lunch I have had in the UK.

[Mark Chaplin]

New Zealand, Swinley Forest and Walton Heath are strong on luncheon. Tandridge has always been famous for lunch. For me Rye and RSG tie, both are very good, RSG probably wins on quality but it's not cheap, Rye is great value so gets a tie.

Mark sadly only one lunch at the HC in last ten years so I cannot comment on their lunch other than fond memories. We played a match at Pretwick two or three years ago, club silver on the big table and plenty of putting mixture afterwards, very memorable.

[Mark Pearce]

I have never eaten in the members' dining room at Prestwick.  I imagine it would be excellent and marginally boozier than HCEG.

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