[Rich Goodale]

Can we have more colors, please?

I'm red-green color blind and never have a clue what Mr. Mucci says, and why....

Thanks

[Paul Gray]

Can we have more colors, please?

I'm red-green color blind and never have a clue what Mr. Mucci says, and why....

Thanks

You need not worry, Rich, nor does anyone that isn't colour blind.

[Sean_A]

Pat

I chose fancy private clubs because they are the pervceived encalve of the rich at the perceived expense of our natural resources.

By whom ?  Biased people such as yourself ?

As I say, the entire reputation of what golf is, the damage it causes to the environment and the drain on natural resources is probably as much about perception as reality. 

Or, it could be the extremist views of a select minority.

Or, it could be the envious view of someone who doesn't belong to a club

Of course, private clubs can continue to wallow in negative publicity,

I see, we're back to class warfare again.
What "negative publicity"
From what I glean, from reading the New York Times, Star Ledger, New York Post and Wall Street Journal everyday, is that I don't come across any negative publicity about golf clubs, even private clubs which you describe as enclaves of the rich.
Who do you think you're kidding with your denigrating description ?  A description borne of your position in academia and the views that typically come with it.

but I don't think its in their long term best interest. 

How would you know how private clubs govern or perceive themselves ?

If progress is being made toward preserving or enhancing the environment and toward reduction of natural resource usage, I think clubs sgould should start documenting it with a mind toward publicizing that information. 

Your use of the word "IF" in the beginning of the sentence above tells me that you don't have a clue about the internal affairs of private clubs.
You don't have a clue with respect to their views of the golf course, their property and the surrounds.

What you've done is condemn and disparage private clubs based upon your own ignorance

It could stand them in good stead if hard(er) times come along.

Here's a clue for you.   "Harder times" are here and they've been here for more than a few years

Right now, guys like you do not in any way help create a positive image for golf. 

What the fuck do you know, about golf, private clubs or me.
You're a dweeb from academia with no real world experience in the realm of private golf clubs.

Your lot have your head stuck in the sand and figure money will solve any problems. 

That shows how little you know.
Where do you come up with this unadulterated horseshit
I've stated, numerous times, that throwing money at a problem rarely solves it.
Just go ask Obama how his "stimulus" package worked.

Private clubs, no matter their wealth or the wealth of their members don't throw money at a problem.
They exercise due diligence to ascertain the exact nature of the problem and it's causes, analyze the problem in terms of viable solutions, then move forward to resolve the problem.

But you wouldn't know that because you have ZERO experience in serving on the boards of private clubs.
So instead, you choose to demonize private clubs and engage in class warfare, based upon your limited to non-existent experience in governing private clubs

That may well be very true, but what if it isn't the case?

What you don't understand is that there will always be people like you, resentful and envious of private clubs, who seek to denigrate them and their memberships.   You wouldn't know this, but the biggest offenders in terms of the environment are often government agencies.

Stop with the class warfare and stop pretending you're Italian with "Ciao"  

Ciao

 

Oh brother.  More Mucci rhetoric.  Carry on.

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hilarious.

You can't improve something if you've already destroyed it.

Paul,

Not according to Jon's post # 95.
Didn't you bother to read it ?
If you had you wouldn't have made such a moronic comment.
But then again, you know no other kind.

It really is too easy.

My only concern is that in years to come peope will reread this accuse the enlightened individuals of 'Pat baiting,' much in the same way as we now frown upon cruelty to animals. I suppoise there's nothing big or clever about baiting a moron.

I would think that the humor will be found in you classifying yourself as "enlightened".
That's beyond a joke, it borders on fraud.

For one who criticized me about my grammar, I would have thought that you knew how to spell the word "suppose".  
Only a moron would spell it "suppoise"
Any "enlightened" individual would have known that, hence you can declassify yourself and return to the "moron" ranks where you belong.

[Paul Gray]

A typo isn't a grammatical error.

As for the rest of your post, well, I literally have no idea just which dot you're now trying to connect to what now.

I am however enjoying myself.

[David_Tepper]

Looks like Doonbeg may be getting its own windfarm!

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2014/2/16/oh-dear-wind-farm-planned-off-coast-of-donalds-doonbeg.html

[Patrick_Mucci]

A typo isn't a grammatical error.

I know, but I already pointed out a grammatical error on your part and thought I'd round it out by pointing out a spelling error.
Grammatical errors and spelling errors are hardly the trademarks of the "enlightened"

As for the rest of your post, well, I literally have no idea just which dot you're now trying to connect to what now.

You can't be  "enlightened" if you're so easily confused.

I am however enjoying myself.

What makes you think that I'm not ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

this is one monumental mistake if it is correct. I
t would have been very easy for the Trump Organisation to find out if any planning applications were being drawn up for a wind farm.

I wonder if he was assured that it would never happen.

Jon,

That would be a critical factor

[Patrick_Mucci]

Looks like Doonbeg may be getting its own windfarm!

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2014/2/16/oh-dear-wind-farm-planned-off-coast-of-donalds-doonbeg.html

David,

Given Doonbeg's location in the cove and the limited sight lines restricted by the land form, I don't believe that the wind Turbines will be visible from the golf course.

Perhaps David Moriarty or that moron Bryan Izatt, who are skilled at drawing lines on "Google Earth" can illustrate the situation

[Thomas Dai]

Looks like Doonbeg may be getting its own windfarm!

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2014/2/16/oh-dear-wind-farm-planned-off-coast-of-donalds-doonbeg.html

atb

[Paul Gray]

Being serious for a second, it will be fascinating to see just how he handles this. As I've said before, I honestly think he's learnt something from the debacle at (and even Pat calls it this now) Balmedie.

[Ryan Coles]

Perhaps he'll surprise no one by mentioning it in the same sentence as Bloody Sunday or such like.

[Jon Wiggett]

Hilarious.

You can't improve something if you've already destroyed it.

Paul,

Not according to Jon's post # 95.
Didn't you bother to read it ?
If you had you wouldn't have made such a moronic comment.
But then again, you know no other kind.

Patrick,

I think you need to reread post 95. I never said it was possible improve something when it had been destroyed. You are the one claiming that all courses destroy nature being so blinded by your own brilliance that you fail to consider an alternative. Courses affect and alter maybe but thy do not have to destroy.

Paul,

I suspect he will stick to his usual formula as it is usually successful indeed it may still work in Aberdeen



Jon

[Paul Gray]

Jon,

I went back, reread your post and, as I said, couldn't make head nor tail of where he was coming from.

Ryan,

Like it. 

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,

I went back, reread your post and, as I said, couldn't make head nor tail of where he was coming from.

Ryan,

Like it. 

Paul,

I suspect Patrick comes from neither the head not the tail. Though as usual I am sure he is right 

Jon

[Ulrich Mayring]

Most courses (I'd say more than 90%) that are being built today in Europe are improving nature. The reason is simple: you don't get planning permission otherwise. The sites available for new golf courses are bulldozed farmland, industrial properties, waste dumps etc.

Budersand, our new German links course, was an airport! The reclamation of the dunesland most certainly improved nature over the steel and concrete based landscape that was there before.

Trump Scotland is an anomaly in that he got permission to build a golf course in pristine dunesland. That would be impossible in most other countries. I am not overly familiar with the rest of his portfolio, but would almost wager a bet that he improved nature on most of his courses even without trying very hard.

Ulrich

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think you need to reread post 95. I never said it was possible improve something when it had been destroyed.

Jon,

I've read it more than a few times, so, let me try to clarify my premise for Paul and the other "unenlightened" amongst us.

See below
 
You are the one claiming that all courses destroy nature being so blinded by your own brilliance that you fail to consider an alternative.

There is no alternative, when a course is built, the greens, tees, bunkers, cart paths, maintenance barn, clubhouse, all destroy the land as it existed in its natural form.  That's indisputable, even by the self proclaimed "enlightened"

Courses affect and alter maybe but thy do not have to destroy.

Of course they do.
TEll me how nature in it's pristine form is preserved when a 25,000 sq/ft clubhouse with a cart basement is built ?

Inherently, they do, it's inate in the replacement process
You can't build a bunker, tees, greens, cart paths, maintenance barns and clubhouses without destroying the land form that previously existed on that location, in it's natural state.

Once you understand that destruction of the land's natural state is inherent in producing any man made facility, you now have to consider how to attempt to minimize that destruction to the tune that it's reasonable and feasible.

So the issue transitions, not from "is there destruction", which is inherent, to "how much destruction" and is it reasonable and palatable.

So, it becomes several things.  Primarily a matter of degree.

The problem with the issue of "degrees" is that it's subjective, open to varying opinions.

A good example of destruction of the land and it's use might be the Condos to the North and the homes to the South of Seminole, a wonderful golf course sitting right on the Atlantic Ocean in Florida.  Forget that much of the golf course was a swamp or wetlands 100 years ago.

So, we have this land to the North of the golf course and on that land, right on the Ocean, a massive condo complex was built.
People live in those condos.
So, nature was destroyed in order to accomodate man's living needs
Have those condos, aside from their footpad, harmed the surrounding environment ?
If so,  to what degree and is it reasonable and palatable ?

Sandwiched between the condos and the homes is a golf course, reclaimed from what could be considered undesireable land, but, land nonetheless.

The creation of the golf course inherently destroyed the land that existed on that site before the golf course.
but, was that a reasonable and palatable conversion of the land  ?
I believe it was.
But, I also believe that other, more zealous environmentalists might argue to the contrary.

So now back to Trump Scotland, leaving Doonbeg, an existing course which Trump had no influence on during construction, for another discussion.

If the Statue of Liberty in New York harbor didn't exist today, and Trump wanted to replicate the exact same structure, I have no doubt that the likes of you and Paul would object to it, because it's a Trump project.

And that's how I feel that you view the golf course at Belmedie.

Hope that helps

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jon,

I went back, reread your post and, as I said, couldn't make head nor tail of where he was coming from.

Paul,

That's because, despite your claims, you're not "enlightened"

[Bill Gayne]

I don't think this is going to be a big deal. You can see wind turbines and the two smoke stacks from the Money Power Plant on the Shannon estuary now. The two stacks are the tallest free standing structures in all of Ireland at over 600 feet. The only place on the course that you take notice of them are on the twelfth hole because they are in your line of site and play. I'm sure you can see them on other holes if you look for them but for the most part you are either playing out away from them or back in between dunes and to the clubhouse (a clubhouse that large blocks out a lot).

As for the twelfth hole it needs to be carpet bombed and started over.

[Jon Wiggett]

Patrick,

I think you need to reread post 95. I never said it was possible improve something when it had been destroyed.

Jon,

I've read it more than a few times, so, let me try to clarify my premise for Paul and the other "unenlightened" amongst us.

See below
 
You are the one claiming that all courses destroy nature being so blinded by your own brilliance that you fail to consider an alternative.

There is no alternative,

The above shows the why you are incapable of logical discussion and maybe learning something. You get a fixed idea and then twist, ignore and invent irrelevant information into a discussion to shore up your opinion which in this case has no connection with what is being discussed

I thought we were talking about golf courses not clubhouses and cart storage.
I thought we were talking about Doonbeg and Aberdeen not Florida

Patrick, if you have to say something then try to keep it relevant

[Patrick_Mucci]

The above shows the why you are incapable of logical discussion and maybe learning something.

How so ?

You get a fixed idea and then twist, ignore and invent irrelevant information into a discussion to shore up your which in this case has no connection with what is being dicussed

Would you cite where I "twisted", "ignored" and "invented" information ?

Perhaps you're incapable of comprehending what I posted.

I thought we were talking about golf courses not clubhouses and cart storage.

We were, what part of tees, greens and bunkers didn't you understand ?
And, with those tees, greens and bunkers comes cart paths, maintenance barns and clubhouses.
Surely, you've noticed that.

I thought we were talking about Doonbeg and Aberdeen not Florida

I thought the thread was about Doonbeg, I think you and others expanded it beyond Doonbeg.
I just didn't realize that we could only talk about courses that were east of Doonbeg
That you can't understand the Florida reference is a reflection on your limitations.

Patrick, if you have to say something then try to keep it relevant

Everything I stated is relevant, I can't help it if you don't possess the ability to understand what's relevant.

I don't think a thread should be defined by or confined to your limitations.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't think this is going to be a big deal. You can see wind turbines and the two smoke stacks from the Money Power Plant on the Shannon estuary now. The two stacks are the tallest free standing structures in all of Ireland at over 600 feet. The only place on the course that you take notice of them are on the twelfth hole because they are in your line of site and play. I'm sure you can see them on other holes if you look for them but for the most part you are either playing out away from them or back in between dunes and to the clubhouse (a clubhouse that large blocks out a lot).

Bill,

Would you say that the wind turbines are a hotel and residency issue, having nothing to do with the golf courses ?

[Bill Gayne]

Pat,

It's really not a hotel or residency issue. For the most part everything around the clubhouse and residency face the water to the west or north towards the golf course. Sure you can make the effort to look from the back of the clubhouse in a southeast direction and see the turbines and smoke stacks but it's far enough away that it's not an issue. My understanding is that in Aberdeen the wind turbines were going to be built in the sea directly in front of the dunes, course, and clubhouse. In Ireland the proposal for the turbines is on land and behind the newly named TIGLI.  

[Jack_Marr]

Do the prices generally go up when he takes over a place?

Some Irish business people were looking to get a casino built in Tipperary, I think, but I'm not sure it got anywhere. He might be the one to get it over the line.

Then there's the dunes around Inch Strand... He could flex his muscles there, I suppose, if he wanted.

[Jon Wiggett]

The above shows the why you are incapable of logical discussion and maybe learning something.

How so ?

[/color][/color]

Exactly my point Patrick. The rest of your post just reinstates your incapability of being able to find a logical conclusion rather than trying to prove you own theories.

Jon

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