[Robin_Hiseman]

James


Thank you for contributing and I'm glad you've enjoyed your visits to JCB.


You mention the 13th, but you describe the 12th, albeit in a mirror image of what is there!


It is largely a buggy course, somewhat to my disappointment, but it suits their business model very well and the carts are all complimentary. Their guests can play the course knowing they won't be tired by the end. It is a fairly hilly site and the compartmentalised nature of the course means that the transit routes are often through a tree belt or up a hill. I have walked it and it is an enjoyable stroll, but it's a long way around and gets more hilly on the back nine.


It did not work to have the greens and tees closer together than they are, but I did do it wherever we could, such as between 2 and 3, where the green runs into the tee and again on 12-13. You have to make a judgement as to whether you force the layout on the site to close the gaps, or respect the terrain and vegetation and settle for longer transits. I chose the latter and stand by it. We've got just about the best routing possible out of that site, all things considered.


But, don't let me be the judge of that. Now I know how to post pictures again, here is the updated Google Earth aerial to look over.


I should also mention that the current clubhouse location (combined with the academy) is not the envisaged permanent location. The proper clubhouse is likely to be much closer to Tee 1.

[Ben Stephens]

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[James Reader]

Robin


You’re right (of course).  I did get 12 and 13 confused in my mind - as well as seemingly not knowing my left from my right!


The fact that the clubhouse is going to move makes a lot of sense.  It did seem odd for it to be so far from the 1st tee.






To Ben’s comments, I can see that 17 and 18 have the potential to be card wreckers for anyone but, personally, I’d find it interesting to see the best players tackling them when the pressure is really on.  That said, if a Ryder Cup is an ambition (and the course is a cut above most, if not all, of the European venues over the past 30+ years), I’d agree that it would be a real shame if a lot of matches were to finish before they got to those two holes.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Ben,


Surely the potential prospect of tour players having their rounds destroyed on the last two holes only enhances the course’s appeal from a spectator’s or TV viewer’s point of view.


I would have thought that 17 and 18 would make terrific finishing holes in a Ryder Cup. The course would make an excellent Ryder Cup venue.

[Robin_Hiseman]

Ben


As always, your response is thoughtful and well argued, but, as you suggest, I do have a different view.


The flow and sequencing of a layout is important, as is the strategic narrative. Your suggestion for the back nine breaks up the flow and the narrative. Crowd movement from 9 to 16 and then back from 18 to 10 would create a logjam. And as for the pro's having a couple of difficult holes at the end. Really!? They're all well used to that kind of finish.


The spectators on 17 would be crowded around the tee and like 6 at Augusta, underneath the flight of the tee shot. Space has been left around 18 for the staging elements required of a tournament closing hole.


It isn't a big enough site for a 21st Century Ryder Cup. Spacious enough for any tour event you like, but a Ryder Cup is a different realm of logistics entirely.

[Ben Stephens]

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[Robin_Hiseman]

60% of games reach 17.
40% reach 18.


It won't be a Ryder Cup venue.


We took the template of the hospitality pavilion and stand used on 18 at Wentworth and ensured there was space for that on the 18th.


Corporate hospitality on a Ryder Cup venue is generally located on holes up to and including the 16th. 80% of matches reach 16. Something like 96% of matches reach 15. 17 and 18 are left for spectators. But, in a strokeplay event, 18 is the focus, which is what we anticipate.


Ben, you are the one and only person I have heard state they prefer that sequence of play. It's interesting to think about it, but I'm not on board with you.

[Ben Stephens]

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[Ben Stephens]

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[Robin_Hiseman]

Ben


As I work for the European Tour and we produce their staging plans in our office, I hope to be privy to those discussions.   


They're not beyond changing the hole sequence for a tournament, as we saw at Close House, so we'll just have to wait and see. I hope not, because it's not as good. All depends on the scale of the tournament, if and when it comes. My main priority was to design a course for JCB's use and I think we nailed the hole sequence for that. Everyone loves the build up of anticipation to the final two holes.


DJ and I have differing views about the difficulty of 18. It's a drive and a 9-iron/wedge for a pro, with a 90-yard wide fairway and no water in play for them. I don't see how that makes it too tough. If they're going to be earning hundreds of thousands to play then they ought to face suitable jeopardy to earn their crust. I don't have any sympathy for the viewpoint that they might be embarrassed. I've had more 4's than 5's up 18 playing from the same tee as the pros.


I think it's a -20 course in 72 hole stroke play.

[Ben Stephens]

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[Robin_Hiseman]

Ben


The 18th fairway is the widest on the course. In fact, it's probably one of the widest in the UK. If you (big hitter that you are) are thinking about the bunkers then they are probably in the right place. I wasn't going to build fairway bunkers where we couldn't see them and where they would be irrelevant for +95% of the users.

[Ben Stephens]

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[Robin_Hiseman]

Ben


I think we've lost the audience.


We have several cape type doglegs at JCB. Holes 3, 7, 11, 13, 15 and 16. 18 is another, but the visual misdirection of the tee view is part of the hole's strategic defence. I also didn't want to fell numerous mature, stately and ecologically valuable trees, which enhance the character of the hole and the wider landscape. We've also done the lone tree trick on the 13th.


As with all architects, I am my own most severe critic, but I'm not going to self-flagellate on here. The day we stop trying to improve is the day we should pack it in.

[Ben Stephens]

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[Ally Mcintosh]

Frank commentary and constructive criticism is always good.


But these last few posts should remind folks that most architects have usually thought about and studied all options ad infinitum before coming to a final decision.


It’s why I get frustrated at those (architects as well as non-architects) that don’t live and breathe a course before suggesting changes / improvements. Happening at our links too often.


I recall Ulrich being adamant that we should combine the 15th and 16th at Carne.

[Ben Stephens]

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[Ben Stephens]

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[Ben Stephens]

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[Ben Stephens]

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[Duncan Cheslett]

Remind me not to have Ben looking over my shoulder next time I fit a kitchen!   

[Robin_Hiseman]

 

[Ben Stephens]

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[Duncan Cheslett]

On my kitchen jobs I'm the designer as well as the guy who makes it and fits it.


I've never been much of a team player! 

[Ben Stephens]

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