[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

 
I have recently returned from Diamante and as the course gets a good deal of attention on this site, here are my impressions on the current state of the courses.
First of, there is some built in bias as a member and for that I do not apologise but I do try to remain impartial.
EL CARDONAL..or the "Tiger course"
I had the opportunity to tour the site with Paul Cowley on the back of ATV's which in itself was a blast.
Paul was wonderful, time limitations did not exist, he was keen to answer any questions that I had and was the perfect wealth of information.
The course looks very promising, clearly not blessed with the ocean site of the Dunes course, but wonderful terrain with significant elevation changes to make for some wonderful Ocean vistas.
The terrain changes from semi dune to desert and the design team have done a good job of matching up the holes to the desired terrain terms of look and mode of playing.
By that I mean the 'dune" holes will play faster with less carry shots and the desert holes less so.
The green complexes are very interesting and varied, with the design team making every effort to mix up the look for the golfer in terms of bunkering and green shape/undulations. Certainly less undulating than the Dunes course, suggesting perhaps quicker green speeds than those possible over on the Dunes course.
Great use of the river basins throughout the course and I believe the finishing stretch will be memorable.
 
The Dunes Course.
The obvious primary discussion is the two new holes that will replace the current numbers 12/13.
Spectacular will be the most used word for the new #12
A sweeping S shaped par 5 of about 500 yards with a semi blind tee shot that will reveal a superb look of the green site and the spectacular nature of the dunes.
The natural green site will require super minimal earth movement, in fact the entire hole will need very little earth movement, it is just sitting there begging to be sprigged.
Hopefully the enclosed photographs can adequately show that.
Natural bunkers to the left of the green and long will create havoc to the offline shot.
A long skinny redanish kind of green will be the target will natural contours off the right moving the ball into the green allowing for the ground game to be used.
Super hole.
#13..
A short par four, driveable to very long hitters especially as it will play with the prevailing wind.
A true risk reward for the big hitters as offline left will be severely punished by natural duneland and a very deep bunker.
The smarter play will be to a good sized landing area avoiding the two fairway bunkers and revealing a large punchbowl green with wonderful contouring and a spectacular view of the par three 11th and the lighthouse as a backdrop.
The greensite is spectacular again hopefully some of which can be seen from the photos.
 
The two holes together are a very significant improvement for the course and as such I can only see this enhancing the overall credibility of the course' world ranking.
 
Conditioning......The fairways are in need of some work to remove the spongy nature of the Passpallum grass.
Too many times you can be in the middle of the fairway in spongy grass that really makes any positive contact very difficult.
Probably perfect for the less "ball contact" savvy player but I found it rather annoying when trying to hit a solid iron shot.
Paul informed me that a certain piece of equipment was on order that will basically take care of the issue and from my limited knowledge I see it as a "thatch" issue that can be resolved.
If ever a course was begging to play firm and fast this is the poster child, currently it cannot because of the spongy fairways.
 
Greens were superb, very fair speed wise to be playable with the undulations.
 
Personal Ideas...as the world renowned architect I am
The rather large humps in the middle of #6 fairway should be made more subtle, a perfect drive into the middle of the fairway can leave you with the ball two or three feet above you stance, which I thought was a little harsh for a good drive.
# 14
It would be great if the slope that greets your tee shot, at least from the back tee, was not so steep.
At 600 yards and usually into the wind a blind shot off a significantly uphill lie again seems rather severe.
As beautiful a hole as this is, it would be great to soften that slope and make more of the hole  visible sooner to the player

looking towrad 12 green from the middle of the fairway
12 geen site
12 green site with Paul Cowley and Tom Dunne

12 green from the fairway
looking bcak to 13 tee from 13 fairway

13 tee is the rail road ties top right of the picture
13 green with the par 3 #11 in the background
13 green site
12 green afain from the fairway
12 green
13 green from the back edge
13 green from the back edge

[Ronald Montesano]

so glad to see sand greens making a comeback...adding sand fairways and sand tees is simply a bonus.

[paul cowley]

  good one Ronald!

[Peter Pallotta]

and good to know that Paul's beloved "S - shaped par 5" is being made manifest on the ground!

Hope you've been well, best for the new year

Peter

[Bart Bradley]

Michael:

I was there last Friday and even I can't tell much from those photos... .

Diamante is a unique and beautiful course.  I agree that the new holes will certainly make a good course even better.  The current 12 and 13, although fine holes, are out of character with the rest of the course.  The new holes seem like they will be a much better style fit. I agree with you that the turf was quite spongy and the ground game was a challenge.  I am thrilled to hear that there are plans to remediate this issue.

Michael, how often do you walk the course?  I wish the club would put in more of the "walking paths" which are certainly present on many of the holes...but sometimes I had to walk down the railroad tie cart paths and it wasn't very comfortable on my (surgically repaired x3) knee.  This may be less of an issue for someone without my past history.

I found it very interesting that the new green had been fully shaped and left as open sand.  I suspect they have to water it frequently to keep the contours from blowing away.  Do they plan on sodding or seeding the new holes and when will that happen?

Congrats on being part of such a cool place.

Kindest regards,

Bart

PS I can certainly certainly vouch for the Cabo weather and experience.  We had a nice time and were amazed by the 82 degree drop in temperature from taking off to landing at home here in TN.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Bart.
All will be sprigged without any top soil.
That is what blew me away...no pun intended with the wind/sand....Paul said there will be minimal change secondary to the wind, as he said those contours have been there for centuries!
I agree the photos do not show much unless you know what you are looking for, and my computer expertise are inadequate to draw on existing photograhs to show flags etc....

I think your comments about the existing number 12/13 are too kind
I think the current 12 is horrible other than the specatcular elevation change from the back tee, but that wont matter soon!!!

I have only walked the course a couple of times...4 knee surgeries ,so I feel your pain....anf totally agree on what you say re wlaking paths.
Paul will read this and I am sure he will try to do something about that.

I am a mere ant on the big picture of Diamante, certainly one of the earlier members but got in on the smallest financial level there was, I simply fell in ,love with the place and even my 1970's upbringing in socialist Britain couldnt stop me from joining.
I remember telling my Dad what I had done and his comment.."you have been living there too long, where are those values I taught you"
my response
"Dad I just love this game."

[Tom Dunne]

Conditioning......The fairways are in need of some work to remove the spongy nature of the Passpallum grass.
Too many times you can be in the middle of the fairway in spongy grass that really makes any positive contact very difficult.
Probably perfect for the less "ball contact" savvy player but I found it rather annoying when trying to hit a solid iron shot.
Paul informed me that a certain piece of equipment was on order that will basically take care of the issue and from my limited knowledge I see it as a "thatch" issue that can be resolved.
If ever a course was begging to play firm and fast this is the poster child, currently it cannot because of the spongy fairways.
 
Greens were superb, very fair speed wise to be playable with the undulations.

Spot on. It's easy to miss if you play the Dunes on a typical day in paradise, but if you catch it on a windy day it becomes apparent how badly the Dunes needs to present F&F. The design calls for it so much more than, say, CDS Ocean's (which was in superb shape, I must add). The great majority of the holes at Diamante (both courses) play either straight down- or up-wind. On a tough hole like 14 you really want to move the ball back to try to play a low-trajectory shot, but that's so hard to execute off shag-carpet paspalum. MWP is such a good player that it didn't seem to affect his game that much, but I found it dispiriting. It's still an excellent course, obviously. With the new beachfront holes coming in, it's scary to think how good the Dunes might be if they get down with brown.  

I understand that the course has played F&F in the past, and it very likely will again in the future. My hope is that people wandering into this thread a year from now will wonder what the hell we were talking about, but it was a valid criticism in late 2013.  

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Tom,
You know that we are in total agreement on that.
Paul wants the same thing, I just hope this "new equipment" arrives and does the job.
With the new GD ratings just out, my mind boggles to see how many places it will jump next time around when they have had the pleasure of seeing what we did whilst there.
That number 12 is going to be so great, I think it has "signature hole" potential, as much as I hate that term

So much fun playing with you, still smile when I think about your ball being blown off the tee at #16 in that wind.

[Emile Bonfiglio]

that doesn't look like the awesome weather I had 2 weeks ago!

[Greg Tallman]

Michael,

Do you honestly believe diamanté is better than 55 in the world?

 No disrespect but....

Oh, and you make me blush!

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I think with the new holes it can firmly establish itself at around trhat number.
I thought with the existing holes it would move down, much like the Alotian will move down much like many new additions to the list do.
That is really what I meant.
To me 55 is lofty for any course when you look at all those around it, anything in the top100 has to be something special.
I think that CDS and Diamante are fairly placed in the realms of top 100, that is not to say if they were flip flopped I would then disagree with their respective positions.
They are both very good golf courses, both worthy of top 100 status...imo...and again Cabo is a great place tp enjoy them

[Philip Gawith]

Greg, as I said on another thread, if Barnbougle Dunes can be no 35 in the world then it is certainly possible to think that Diamante can be lower than 55. Maybe I am not giving Barnbougle the love it deserves, maybe it is too high so the base for comparison is wrong - but the two came to mind inasmuch as both are pretty celebrated modern, links-style courses.

And to Tom's point about it being easy to miss the F&F point if you play on a calm day - perhaps that describes my experience, when the wind was pretty calm and this issue was not front of mind.

Philip

[Greg Tallman]

Don't get me wrong I like the course a lot. One of the more enjoyable courses I have played. 50 and above is rarified air in my mind and I simply don't see it. As far as f&f there really is no issue with it coming and going depending on weather... It simply does not exist there which can be forgiven at the end of a wonderfully enjoyable day. As noted in a previous topic by Paul Cowley the design is more aerial in nature anyway.

 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Greg,
I agree it is more aerial in design than CDS but I am sure you agree that is would be so much better if playing more f&f.
To me the only holes that restrict to aerial are numbers 4/11 and 17 so there is tremendous potential for the running game to be the optimum field of play.
I believe Paul wants it more that way and feel confident that the design team would like it more so as well.
I am totally with you, top 50 is indeed rarified air but iwth sme of the ideas that are floating around in Mr Cowleys head, I can see perhaps at some point Diamante nudging its way there.
For now well placed.
One thing I wold add though is if other courses can be placed according to ambiance, quality of service, conditioning and other "add ons" then the practice facility and comfort stations at Diamante would justify a top 50 placement, much like those tacos at CDS

[paul cowley]

Michael,

Do you honestly believe diamanté is better than 55 in the world?

 No disrespect but....

Oh, and you make me blush!

Actually Greg, Diamante Dunes is ranked #52 Golf Mag Top 100 World...Golf Digest has it at #55 Top 100 World  

Thanks Michael and everyone for the positive comments and suggestions...we are sprigging #13 fairway and green tomorrow!

[Greg Tallman]

Michael,

Do you honestly believe diamanté is better than 55 in the world?

 No disrespect but....

Oh, and you make me blush!

Actually Greg, Diamante Dunes is ranked #52 Golf Mag Top 100 World...Golf Digest has it at #55 Top 100 World  

Thanks Michael and everyone for the positive comments and suggestions...we are sprigging #13 fairway and green tomorrow!

Michael referenced the new Digest list and thus my comment. Look forward to seeing the new holes as well as the new course sometime soon.

[Frank Kim]

I visited Diamante  a few days ago.  The plans for the original holes 12 and 13 are to convert them to a par 3 course.

[Jay Flemma]

Good! S-shaped par-5s make for great angles!  I see why they are making these changes and they look to be better than the originals.  What is the plan regarding 10 and 18?  Even Davis Love acknoiwledges there's room for improvement there and that the "it's downwind, though" excuse really doesn't hold water in the case of 10...

Most importantly, what are they doing about the turf?  There was no question when I played it this summer it was grabby and clingy.  It looked like a links course, but didn;t play like one.

[Kyle Henderson]

Here’s a more recent look at the new 12th and 13th holes at Diamante- Dunes. They appear to be growing in nicely and are slated to open for play in the next couple of months.

This is the view from the 11th green, with the new 12th teeing grounds  just left of frame playing to the left fairway in the distance. The new 13th hole is seen coming back on the right to a green just visible between the dune and the right edge of the frame.


Here is a look from the 12th green back to the 12th fairway. The 13th tee is on the left edge of the frame.


From behind the 13th tee, we can see the 13th fairway turning left to cross over a saddle in the apex of the predominant sand ridge.


And finally, we see the new 13th green from across its left flank, with the once and future 11th green seen in the distance.

[Greg Tallman]

Kyle, from your tour can you answer these (or perhaps Mr PC will chime in)

1. How far below the 11th green do the tees for 12 sit?
2. How long is the forced carry from the back tee on 12? (looks long, I suspect it's actually not at all)
3. Is the safe line on 13 more or less straight down the cart path?

[Kyle Henderson]

Kyle, from your tour can you answer these (or perhaps Mr PC will chime in)

1. How far below the 11th green do the tees for 12 sit?
2. How long is the forced carry from the back tee on 12? (looks long, I suspect it's actually not at all)
3. Is the safe line on 13 more or less straight down the cart path?

Greg, I just peeked over while playing the original layout. I did not get a proper tour. I'll let Paul provide the voice of authority.

[paul cowley]

Greg/Kyle

- The back tee of new #12 is 87 6'' steps below #11 green

- The carry from the back tee on #12 around 165 yds

- The safe line on #13 is diagonally over the cart path shown in the photo to the concave fairway in the distance. The direct line to the green is slightly left of the lighthouse when you are standing on the tee.

Glad you enjoyed your round Kyle...lets try to get together again when you return. See you at Sammy's Greg...

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Looking great Paul, looks like it will be titally playable for when I get back there in December, already looking forward to it.
See you then as well Greg, reserve me a tee time for Friday Dec 12 early afternoon

[Greg Tallman]

Greg/Kyle

- The back tee of new #12 is 87 6'' steps below #11 green

- The carry from the back tee on #12 around 165 yds

- The safe line on #13 is diagonally over the cart path shown in the photo to the concave fairway in the distance. The direct line to the green is slightly left of the lighthouse when you are standing on the tee.

Glad you enjoyed your round Kyle...lets try to get together again when you return. See you at Sammy's Greg...

Gracias Señor Cowley but you gotta get your story straight. Friday evening you said it was 86 stairs down to 12 tee, of course that was after the 2nd glass of Chardonnay  .

Can't wait to see these, the Tiger course and what you end up doing with the current 12th and 13th. Certainly will be among the coolest facilities around. Just think if some of the wild plans come about you could transition the 18th fairway into a putting course that could rival the punchbowl and Bandon... just a thought.  

Oh, see you Sunday for a round on Ocean, tell BillyO Spartan green is not permitted at CDS.

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