Australian courses with a double (or triple) green?

[Brett_Morrissy]

Reading a Christmas present with some discussion of double greens.

Are there many examples in Aust? If so, care to list them, do you like them, and what orientation is the "double-ness"
Why?

Only two I can think of:
National Old - 10 & 14 - 10, p5 has the partner green long right, out of range for most. 14, p4, long left finds the neighbour from a shortish approach.
and
Moonah Links Legends 6 & 8 - 6, a shortish p5 - other green is 90 degrees to the left and 8, a long p4, and partner green is straight long.

I find I am  more aware of the double green at Moonah, whereas the Old's seem quite separate.

Are they more to maintain do you know?

[Adam_Messix]

Kingston Heath 8 & 16

[Mark Chaplin]

I played one at Kennedy Bay, fine course south of Perth, cannot remember the configuration though!

[Neil_Crafter]

I designed a double green for Whyalla GC in country SA some years ago but I believe they no longer maintain the section that joins the two greens as putting green any more , which would be pretty common.

[Anthony Butler]

The old Manly Golf Club had the 11th and 16th as a double green... Not sure about the redesigned course..

It had a 2-3 ft hump separating the two sections which always made for an interesting putt if you pulled your approach on 11.. You would have to go about 15 yards long with your wedge approach to the par 5 16th to go over it the other way..

[David_Elvins]

11 and 18 at heathcote is the best i have seen in australia.

Although i tried to forget all memory of the course,  i have a feeling that there was one at sandhurst.

[Greg Gilson]

National Moonah 6 & 14. National Ocean 7 & 11 was also (I think) supposed to be a double - its shown that way on the pre-opening course map we have hanging at home. I also recall Virginia (Brisbane) having a couple but I haven't played there since 1973!

[Matt Day]

I played one at Kennedy Bay, fine course south of Perth, cannot remember the configuration though!

from memory I think its the 5th and 7th holes. 5th is a longish par 4 around 400 metres and the 7th is great short par 4. The green would have to be at least 70 metres wide

[John Avram]

I was able to find three that had not been previously mentioned:

Muree Golf Club   11 & 13
Cowra Golf Club 8 & 10
Rosewood Golf Club 5 & 9

Take a look at Cowra though,  I am not sure that one technically counts, although the greens appear to be touching

http://www.golffrontier.com/ViewCourseMap.aspx?MapID=e6e93e24-2704-4b9d-87a6-c38b8b5c4114

[Brett_Morrissy]

Greg, yes, forgot about National Moonah, I've only seen players go long on 6 making for interesting first putts.

So, do we like them? Are some better than others?

Neil as you suggest that it is probably common for the section between to not continue to be green surface, does this also mean that it is costly to maintain, or just a pain for supers?

[James Bennett]

Waikerie 12 and 15.

15 is a short par 3, with a drop-off at the rear down to the 12th green.  12 is an uphill par 4.
It is a rare shot that goes on the other green.


Links Lady Bay 13 and 16 (I am surprised David Elvins missed this one).

13 is a short par 4 and 16 is a long par 5.
Again, it is a rare shot that goes on the other green.

Both sets of greens involve holes that play at right angles to each other.

I think Doak puts it well in his book Anatomy of a Golf Course where he commented that double greens invariably involve more green square metreage than two single greens.  I don't think Doak has designed a double green.

[Tom_Doak]

Are any of these really good holes?

My general impression is that with the exception of St. Andrews, double greens are added to holes as a conversation piece when the hole hasn't got anything else going for it.  I dislike them, with the exception noted. 

And before someone asks me why the one at Old Macdonald -- it was not the original intent, and I don't know why they waste time mowing the extra area in between the greens, since it doesn't add hole locations on either hole.

[Sean_A]

I don't know why they waste time mowing the extra area in between the greens, since it doesn't add hole locations on either hole.

Tom

Why then waste time and money mowing grass between greens and tees?  Why stick in a useless bunker?  The main reason why I don't mind double greens is I usually think it looks better than two greens nearby with rough dividing them.  I also think it sends a safety message to be aware - you are sharing a green. 

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

A couple more double greens to consider -

4th & 14th at Carnoustie Championship - where the back edges of each meet

9th & 18th at Emirates, Dubai - where they sit side by side and are both approached from pretty much the same angle

I can understand how the latter has an eye-candy element. Any Carnoustie experts know how the former it came about?

ATB

[Mike_Clayton]

Tom,

8 and 16 at Kingston Heath are pretty good holes and the double green does work really well there.
They did stop cutting it for a while - I know it wasn't joined for the 1970 Australian Open because Brian Barnes was penalized for putting off the 8th green when he was playing 16 - but they bought it back not long after.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

8 and 16 at Kingston Heath are pretty good holes and the double green does work really well there.
They did stop cutting it for a while - I know it wasn't joined for the 1970 Australian Open because Brian Barnes was penalized for putting off the 8th green when he was playing 16 - but they bought it back not long after.

Mike:

I don't understand your story -- what was the penalty for?  Did he mark his ball on the wrong green and clean it?  You can use a putter from anywhere.

Those are, indeed, much better holes than most of the ones which have a double green.

[Mike_Clayton]

Tom

It was the same rule as if you had hit onto another, completely separate, green - you must drop off the green. It was an understandable mistake to make - but it was a mistake.

[Matt Day]

Are any of these really good holes?

My general impression is that with the exception of St. Andrews, double greens are added to holes as a conversation piece when the hole hasn't got anything else going for it.  I dislike them, with the exception noted. 

And before someone asks me why the one at Old Macdonald -- it was not the original intent, and I don't know why they waste time mowing the extra area in between the greens, since it doesn't add hole locations on either hole.

the 7th at Kennedy Bay is a great short par 4

[Greg Gilson]

National Old 10/14 are both good holes IMHO and the double green/flag placements can have a significant impact on how the holes play. Definitely not there just as a conversation starter.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Is the question not so much is it a good hole or not - as that is a question for any golf hole, but rather could it be a better hole if it did not share a green with another hole?

e.g.
the National Old example - those green sites could be shifted and the holes may not suffer because of this, in fact the 10th could be better if it were a little further back? 14 could be moved high right or lower left - it is still a coin toss as to whether or not this improves the holes one way or another? There seems to be 'space' to move the sites if it was required.
BUT with the Kingston Heath example - doesn't the location of the greens help the routing work in that corner? to change the green sites may make the routing flow less? ...and so this is perhaps a better solution to share the larger site for two greens as is.
Tom used TOC as the exception to the rule - why do all those greens 'need' or it's ok for them to be shared? Narrow tract of land helps, (& I am sure this has been discussed elsewhere on here and am getting off thread), so could Barnbougle, also a 'narrowish' property, have had more double greens - 3 & 5 are pretty close - but then this is just shared greens for shared greens sake - conversation pieces.  I am surprised that with some of the small golf properties in Australia that there is not more shared or double greens.

[Hugh Griffin]

I designed a double green for Whyalla GC in country SA some years ago but I believe they no longer maintain the section that joins the two greens as putting green any more , which would be pretty common.

Played there a couple of years ago in their Open week and from memory it is no longer a double green. This is a bit OT but Whyalla is a classic example of why members / committee should have limited input to the course architecture.

The course as it is now is a classic "desert oasis" style course set on a fairly uninspiring piece of land but with a back nine that features some the most interesting green complexes in South Australia (although Fleurieu might argue with that).

The story I was told was that when the course was rebuilt 10 or so years ago the back nine was the first nine completed and upon seeing the varying green complexes the members / committee decided that they were perhaps a little too crazy, and subsequently ordered that the front nine greens be much flatter.

Unfortunately this means the front nine greens are as uninspiring as the land, and made to look even worse given the contrast to the greens on the back nine. It is still one of the best country tracks in South Australia but with 18 greens like the back nine it would be a gem. Neil might be able to clarify if that story of mine is all factual or not, given it is probably third hand or more.

Back on topic another course i can think of with a double green is McCracken. Par 3 13th and 17th. Another course where there isnt much point cutting the bit between the greens short....

[Tom_Doak]

Tom

It was the same rule as if you had hit onto another, completely separate, green - you must drop off the green. It was an understandable mistake to make - but it was a mistake.

Aha.  I've probably made that mistake once or twice myself.

What other situations are there where one of your options is not to play the ball as it lies?  You can play it from a hazard instead of dropping; you can play it from a cart path if you want to; I thought in most circumstances you could also play it from G.U.R. if you want to.

If that's the Rule then I can see a point to having a double green ... if you COULD putt from one green to another, better to connect them into the same green than to FORCE a drop off to the side.  Imagine at St. Andrews if you had to take a drop all the time!

[David_Elvins]

I played a double green once (can't for the life of me remember where) where there was a yellow line paintedacross the middle of it.  Hit it past the yellow line and you were on the other green and needed to take a drop.  Probably second to 'aerial out of bounds' as  the stupidest rule I have seen on a golf course.