[BCowan]

Public or Private that redefine how to handle Pace of Play issues!!  Asking people to leave, moving them to hole they should be at, and extreme as they get policies?

[Bob_Garvelink]

Public or Private that redefine how to handle Pace of Play issues!!  Asking people to leave, moving them to hole they should be at, and extreme as they get policies?

Arcadia Bluffs comes to mind for me.  I have played Arcadia a few times and have always finished about 4 hrs (maybe a few minutes longer).  The times I have played the rangers have been all over groups who are playing slow.  I actually witnessed a ranger throw a drunk group of guys off the course and threaten to call the cops.  probably a bit extreme in my opinion.  Now with that said I have heard a lot of people complain about pace of play at Arcadia so maybe I just got lucky.

[ChipRoyce]

I think Public vs. Private suggest 2 different threads as each pose completely different opportunities & issues.

I'm interested in discussing Private clubs.

First of all, Private clubs shouldn't have Rangers.  They are completely ineffective.

Instead if the pro shop senses that play is getting slow, they should figure out quickly the offending groups and take the time to drive out and speak to them.

As for policies, really comes down to club culture and management. I love hearing of clubs that post slow players names and will even take steps to censure / restrict their play and/or guest privileges.

[Keith OHalloran]

Rivermont  in Georgia is the best I have ever seen. The key is that they have a great owner that places a premium on pace of play, and everyone knows it. All the reminders are gentle, but persistent. No one feels like the speed police are after them, but everyone knows what is expected. A benevolent dictator is always the best way run a club IMHO.

[Garland Bayley]

When King's Putter played in Canada, we played Marine Drive (a private club) where they have a time clock to punch in before and out after your round. Pace of play was expected to be 3:45 or less as I remember. GCA member Sandy Smith is the super there, and perhaps can provide more info.

[Adam Lawrence]

The British two ball clubs, like Rye and Huntercombe are the gold standard for pace of play. At Huntercombe, they say that if you consistently take more than three hours to play you'll get a strongly worded letter from the secretary telling you to get a move on!

[BCowan]

If i ever play Huntercombe, I don't think i would ever leave.  Pace of play, Grass Bunkers, natural hazards, and Willie Park Jr.  What more could you ask for.  Gold Standard!!!

[A.G._Crockett]

Rivermont  in Georgia is the best I have ever seen. The key is that they have a great owner that places a premium on pace of play, and everyone knows it. All the reminders are gentle, but persistent. No one feels like the speed police are after them, but everyone knows what is expected. A benevolent dictator is always the best way run a club IMHO.

I'll second this.  Rivermont's system is good enough that my club has tried to copy it with at least some success.  Our biggest problem has been finding outdoor clocks that will continue to work!

[Jim Tang]

Years ago I worked at a public course in Chicagoland that had permanent tee times on Saturdays and Sundays.  Each weekend the club would post each group's time on a large board just off the 18th green, for all to see.  The players ended up policing themselves and made sure slow groups sped up their pace of play.  

[Thomas Dai]

As Chip indicates, public courses vrs private courses are very separate entities when it comes to pace of play issues. There is also a difference between general play and competition play.

At a private members club where I was a member many years ago, all men's singles competitions were played in 3-balls. However, there were still men who played slowly. A system was then introduced (by a new Captain I believe) where most competitors still played in 3-balls but players with reputations for slow play were 'required' to play together in 2-balls. Embarrassment won the day and soon all were playing in 3-balls again.

All the best

[BCowan]

Years ago I worked at a public course in Chicagoland that had permanent tee times on Saturdays and Sundays.  Each weekend the club would post each group's time on a large board just off the 18th green, for all to see.  The players ended up policing themselves and made sure slow groups sped up their pace of play.

Awesome, they still do this?  I am surprised that they could do this in Chicago.

Great posts with Rivermont.

    Anyone know of a private club that let go of a member over slow play?  I doubt you could legally do this.

[Mark Chaplin]

At one of my clubs the slow player(s) always seem to be drawn in the final group or two of a big competition. What are the odds on that in a big field?

[Richard Hetzel]

Public or Private that redefine how to handle Pace of Play issues!!  Asking people to leave, moving them to hole they should be at, and extreme as they get policies?

Arcadia Bluffs comes to mind for me.  I have played Arcadia a few times and have always finished about 4 hrs (maybe a few minutes longer).  The times I have played the rangers have been all over groups who are playing slow.  I actually witnessed a ranger throw a drunk group of guys off the course and threaten to call the cops.  probably a bit extreme in my opinion.  Now with that said I have heard a lot of people complain about pace of play at Arcadia so maybe I just got lucky.

I also remember the ranger actually "over doing his job" at Arcadia Bluffs and our foursome was NOT playing slow. but he still kept hounding everyone on the course to play faster. I am not convinced that anyone on the course was even playing slowly for that matter.

This summer I played at Oxford Greens and the starter got irate that 2 guys in my party went back to clubhouse to get beer and food  at the turn (the half way house/area in the lot was closed on a perfect June summer day) and made us skip a hole which we did, but then played right through the other group anyway!

IMO, I think if golf courses did a BETTER job of letting their patron know their expectation on pace of play up front and honestly, you would have less issues. "Thanks for playing our course today Mr. Heise, we do want to let you know that we don NOT allow slow play, play ready golf at all times or you will be asked to skip a hole or leave the course if you fall behind the appropriate pace."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chip,

The system we developed at my club in NJ was incredibly effective.

No rangers, no warnings, no on course confrontations.

No Mulligans on the first/tenth tee.

The clock starts when the last golfer tees off on # 1, the clock stops when the last golfer walks off the 18th green.

The round must be in less than 4 hours AND you can't be more than 8-10 minutes behind the group in front of you.

Violate either and the ENTIRE foursome gets a slow play letter.

Any golfer getting a second slow play letter can't tee off before 2:00 on the next two Friday, Saturday's and Sundays that he's playing.

Get a third letter, it's a month.

Get a forth letter, it's the rest of the season.

Within two weeks times went from 4:40 to 3:50.
And, all but a few enjoyed playing at a faster pace.

[John Kavanaugh]

Chip,

The system we developed at my club in NJ was incredibly effective.

No rangers, no warnings, no on course confrontations.

No Mulligans on the first/tenth tee.

The clock starts when the last golfer tees off on # 1, the clock stops when the last golfer walks off the 18th green.

The round must be in less than 4 hours AND you can't be more than 8-10 minutes behind the group in front of you.

Violate either and the ENTIRE foursome gets a slow play letter.

Any golfer getting a second slow play letter can't tee off before 2:00 on the next two Friday, Saturday's and Sundays that he's playing.

Get a third letter, it's a month.

Get a forth letter, it's the rest of the season.

Within two weeks times went from 4:40 to 3:50.
And, all but a few enjoyed playing at a faster pace.

Patrick,

It sounds impossible for a group that wants to play in three hours to play through. How does that work?

[BHoover]

   Anyone know of a private club that let go of a member over slow play?  I doubt you could legally do this.

I can't see any legal reason that would preclude a private club from expelling a member over slow play. It may be economically unwise, but what legal impediment would there be against this? Perhaps the only requirement would be to return the member's capital contribution/equity. If pace of play is built into the by-laws, slow play would be a valid reason for expulsion.

But at most clubs, I have to believe it's unheard of these days.

[BCowan]

Brian

I am curious if it has happened when there were waiting lists.  I totally agree with you now.  However clubs can forgot that sometimes people quit and don't voice their reasons.  So allowing a few bad slow players ruin it for everyone could lose a club more members.  I haven't seen slow play be an issue at most private clubs, hence one of many reasons to join a private club is pace of play!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

It sounds impossible for a group that wants to play in three hours to play through. How does that work?

They simply go through.

But, groups that play in 3 hours, and there aren't many, were given the earlier tee times where play was expected to be faster.

It worked very well

[Jim Tang]

BCowan -

Not sure if the club I worked at still posts the times of individual groups or not.  It was maybe 15 years ago that I worked for that particular course.

[Kevin_D]

My club's rules are virtually identical to Mr. Mucci's (though mulligans are allowed on the 1st tee...it's a blind par 5 so it's basically like a provisional).

We have zero pace of play issues on saturday and sunday mornings despite being one of the busiest clubs in Westchester.

I am convinced that this is a model that could work for any course, public or private.

[Tim Martin]

BCowan -

Not sure if the club I worked at still posts the times of individual groups or not.  It was maybe 15 years ago that I worked for that particular course.

As mentioned previously the Scarlett Letter approach can be an effective method for having the usual suspects pick up the pace.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kevin D,

I don't recall the exact amount of time, but permitting Mulligans added significantly to the time of play over the course of a day.

[Keith OHalloran]

Pat, I wonder why that is? Most clubs time guys after they finish on the first tee. If you are only taking mulligans on 1 seems like you wouldn't even be on the clock until after the mulligans were hit.
Perhaps a few minutes of looking for the mulligan?

[BCowan]

Haha, the guys I used to play with on Sat morning had their 2nd ball teed up before the first ball had landed!  I guess it depends on how long one's pre-shot routine is.   Slow players got later tee times.  I like all the posts and agree

[Kevin_D]

Kevin D,

I don't recall the exact amount of time, but permitting Mulligans added significantly to the time of play over the course of a day.

Pat,

I don't disagree at all. Was just highlighting the one way our policy differs with yours.

The rest is nearly identical and highly effective. Many people argue that these policies can only work at a private course, but I don't see why a public course can't restrict tee times of slow players as well.

My point on the mulligans is that, with a par 5 1st hole with a blind tee shot, if you didn't allow mulligans, players would still need to hit provisionals on highly errant tee shots. So the net effect of allowing mulligans isn't terribly great at my course.

That said, I don't think banning mulligans is a bad policy - even at my course. It would certainly instill, from the get go, an attitude of quick play.

Kevin

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