[Joey Chase]

Richard,

Having played Mid Pines yesterday for the first time, I agree wholeheartedly.  It was amazing value and such a pleasant walk.  After playing it, one would be hard pressed not to be influenced.  Unlike places like Seminole and Wannamoisett, it can be enjoyed by the majority of the golfing public.  

P.S.  While in the pro shop, I picked up a copy of your new book and intend to enjoy it for the duration of my trip in Pinehurst.  It is fantastic reading.

[Nigel Islam]

Ben, you haven't messed up this thread at all, it is just the responses that are trying to move it to another topic, which is typical of things here forever.  I do agree with you on your assessment that some of his courses built in particular regions have a similar feel to them and that is because they were built by different construction foremen of Ross's such as Walter Hatch, Irving Johnson, and Ellis Maples.

Nigel,  all golf courses evolve over time and it is true that sometimes we do get too caught up in "original", but you must admit that when a Donald Ross course is completely overhauled in the fifties or sixties by someone like RTJ for the sole purpose of toughening it up for the pros and then a different architect comes in every decade since to overhaul it, that is an example of going way too far away from the original.  

Greg, I think your consideration of Mid Pines is an excellent example of Ross' influence.

Oh no, I totally agree with you. I am just trying to be thankful for what does survive.

[jim_lewis]

The late Pete Jones, who was a serious student of Ross, convinced me that any generalzation about Ross courses is almost always wrong. He claimed he could cite an exception to any rule you offered. I believed him.

The only characteristic that I always seem to find in Ross courses is the "feel". Can't define it, but you can recognize a Ross course by the feel. Lots of what I call "pure golf" holes, rarely spectacular, and very few chances to lose a ball or suffer a penalty. Usually lots of recoverability and a premium on strong iron play. There are many excellent examples of Ross's work, but I suggest that none has been played by as many serious golfers, architects, developers, journalists and other "golf people" as Pinehurst #2. It hasn't been seen on television as much as ANGC or Pebble Beach, but it certainly must be his most influential course. I do know that you often find architects at the Tufts Archives studying his works. Name a architect, living or dead, who has not made the trip to play and study #2.

[Mark Bourgeois]

or by influencing people to hire him to do additional golf courses?

So which course(s) set off this light bulb? And how much was this due to the courses versus, say, the influence of Richard Tufts among other putative golf course developers?

On the "what's a Ross" front, I will put my hand up for solid straight uphill par 4s. The man had a talent for this connector hole that many architects avoid / avoided. Maybe that was a key to his ability to route courses well.

What's everyone got to say about that?

[Mike_Young]

or by influencing people to hire him to do additional golf courses?

So which course(s) set off this light bulb? And how much was this due to the courses versus, say, the influence of Richard Tufts among other putative golf course developers?

On the "what's a Ross" front, I will put my hand up for solid straight uphill par 4s. The man had a talent for this connector hole that many architects avoid / avoided. Maybe that was a key to his ability to route courses well.

What's everyone got to say about that?

I don't know that Tufts was the catalyst as much as the railroad...Think about so many big names and how the majority fo their big projects, especially early in their careers were owned or developed by one client.  Pete Dye had Landmark, Art Hills had Westvaco or Arvida( I think) and others...but anyway I think the timing of the railroad gong to Miami had much to do with Ross having courses that influential people with the ablitiy to build saw.  

As for "What's a Ross?"  if I had to name one thing that I think is a generalization of all his courses is that he always routed perpendicular to the topo lines and if he needed a tie-in or a hole that was parallel he would usually do it with a par three.  And yet having said that, I don't know of many great inland courses where this wasn't done.

[Richard_Mandell]

I am not too sure about the railroad aspect of spreading Ross' influence.  I think Richard Tufts' influence would only have been apparent well after Ross became a dominant figure in the design business.  He started full-time as an architect in 1910 and Richard Tufts took over in the late twenties. I have to think that the Pienhurst courses themselves were more influential than the railroad or Tufts.

Mark,  your question is exactly the question I am trying got get feedback on.

[Mike Hendren]

Arguably, Holston Hills is one of his most influential courses over the past 15 -20 years.  Fortunately, Knoxville sprawled to the west with the result that the course and club barely remained economically viable through the 70's, 80's and 90's while many of its better located and more affluent sister courses went under the clumsy or careless knife.  That, and the fact that it remained off the USGA's radar.  

I can't help but wonder if its touching up didn't serve as the genesis for the current and recent wave of Ross "restorations."  As a genuine article it exposed the folly of tampering with Ross' work.

bogey

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I agree with your comment, "I would say that for a course to be influential it either had to host majors or be in a location where it was seen and played by many.

Richard,

There was no such thing as "Majors" until AFTER TV came along.

Pinehurst # 2 was well established prior to that.

Next to the USGA Amateur, the North-South Amateur (Men's and Women's) was the biggest/most prestigious amateur tournament in the country for decades, and, the North-South Open was also held in high regard, hence, Pinehurst benefited on several fronts.  It was major destination as a resort and significant competitions were held there annually.  

So I don't see many as being influential." I am not too sure one can really say his courses are influential on a grand scale.  his design philosophy, etc. yes, but his courses no, with the exception of Pinehurst as a vehicle for his business (like Fazio at Pine Valley).

There's NO comparison between Ross at Pinehurst and Fazio at Pine Valley.
Fazio is but a mere footnote regarding the course at Pine Valley, Ross is the Author of the course at Pinehurst.

That said, are there any ones that have hosted majors that we could really say were influential based on his architecture?  

You position, that the measure of influence is dictated by "majors" hosted is misguided at best.
NGLA, GCGC, CPC, Sand Hills, Pine Valley, Friars Head and Pacific Dunes being prime examples of influential courses not associated with "Majors"

So many of his courses have been bastardized to accommodate majors over the years, I wonder if one could really consider them still Ross courses (i.e. Oakland Hills and Oak Hill, which always come to my mind first).

Yet many, like Mountain Ridge, remain mostly intact.

On the subject of hazards, a creek that comes into play on numerous holes is still one creek, but I am trying to ignore the side thread here.  Maybe someone can start another one regarding his number of water hazards.

By the way Hart, glad you are enjoying the book.  I sold 200 the first eight days.

[Tim Martin]

Richard-I would have to agree with  JCrisham on Wannamoisett. Who has done more with less land?

[Richard_Mandell]

Pat:

The quote about Fazio at Pine Valley was Mike Young, not me.  I was just referencing it.  

Regarding the fact there were no "majors" until TV, that is irrelevant to my question about what Ross courses are influential today, when there are such things as majors.

I disagree that my position of majors being an influential factor is misguided.  The point of this thread is to ask what of Ross' courses are influential NOT regarding his architecture (which has been discussed for more than a decade by us here) BUT by the growth and spread of the game.  I am curious about what the average golfer thinks of Ross, not us architecture addicts.

I don't recall Mountain Ridge hosting a major.  The reference to those courses being bastardized are those of Ross' that have hosted majors.  Major championship golf is where the majority of people are exposed to Ross on a large, general scale.  More people will flip the TV on to see an Open at Pinehurst No. 2 or Oakland Hills, etc. than will ever hear of Mountain Ridge (intact or not).

Again, the point of this thread is not how influential his courses are in architecture, but in the growth of the game either as a participant or as a spectator.

[Craig Disher]

Richard,
I don't know of any other courses that had as much early pre-WWII publicity as the ones at the Pinehurst resort. Although the 1938 Pictoreel short is about Pinehurst, it's really about public golf and the courses, mainly #2 and #3. I don't know how widely it was shown but it might have made it into theaters up and down the east coast. The new grass greens probably helped a lot too. Now there were good courses, open most of the year, located in a charming town, and available to the general public.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Richard,

You must have missed my earlier response where I stated that the sheer volume of courses produced by Ross had an enormous impact on the growth of the game.  His influence was considerable.

In addition, Pinehurst, in it's dual role as resort and multi-tournament venue had a tremendous influence on growing the game versus any other peer course.

As to TV viewers watching majors, being influenced by any architect, in terms of growing the game, other than ANGC, which is seen every year, NO course has had any influence on growing the game.

[Richard_Mandell]

Pat,

I did see that comment and appreciated it.  It had just been a few days.  So you think that no golf course seen on television, other than ANGC, has had any influence on growing the game.  Is that just participatory or from viewership as well?  I am curious if any one else here thinks the same?

How about recently (past fifteen years or so) Bethpage Black (for New York residents only, most likely)?

[Jason Topp]

How influential was the Boston Muni course (George Wright?)

[BCowan]

I am curious about what the average golfer thinks of Ross, not us architecture addicts.

Richard

    For example, i would consider my mom a non arch addict who plays 4 days a week in the warm months.  She didn't think much of #2 or and Inverness (Both major venues), but she loves Mid Pines, Brookside (Canton), and Mohawk (Tiffin,OH) Ross back 9!  But you have to look at the fact Inverness and #2 inspired more people to hire Ross and build as many tracks as he did!  I believe a poll was read on NBC and Ross was voted favorite Arch to play by the avg golfer.  One big reason is most cities have one of his courses.  His courses are very playable and pleasing to the eye.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I did see that comment and appreciated it.  It had just been a few days.  So you think that no golf course seen on television, other than ANGC, has had any influence on growing the game. 

That's correct

Is that just participatory or from viewership as well? 

TV flattens a golf course, and doesn't really bring out the unique architectural features, unless it's a stunning site, like Pebble Beach, Spyglass or Cypress.

I think Pebble Beach has been influential because it's been an accessible resort and the venue for the Crosby/AT&T and Open.
But, it's not the architectural features that appeal to the TV audiences as much as the seals, whales, sea otters, sailboats and beachcombers.  Not many courses had their celebrity packed Pro-Ams televised, which added to the lure.

I am curious if any one else here thinks the same?

How about recently (past fifteen years or so) Bethpage Black (for New York residents only, most likely)?

How many people are willing to sleep in their car in the hope of getting a tee time ?
And, BPB is ONLY for the better player, a limited market

[Bill Hoyle]

I wonder about the influence of the Grove Park Inn course in Asheville.  It seems to me to have the "Ross feel" and it hosted some PGA events long ago.  The influence I am thinking of is the large number of big money golfers who stayed at the Grove Park, probably played the course, and took some Ross ideas back home with them.

[Greg Holland]

I was thinking about this more -- then I saw the following quote on Geoff Shackelford's site:  "The easiest thing in the world is to build a hard golf course. It’s far harder to design a golf course that’s playable for everyone." by BEN CRENSHAW.  Then, watching the movie trailer for the Ross documentary, Kelly Miller said in it that Ross was the best because his courses provide a tremendous test for the good player and are very, very enjoyable for the average player.  Ran added that because he had designed so many courses, he undoubtedly brought more happiness to more golfers than any other.  

Isn't that the answer to why he was so influential?  Golfers of every level enjoy his courses, and many were accessible to all from the start.  I have several friends who are mid handicappers at best who had their all time best score at No. 2, and I have heard scratch golfers revere yet complain about it's subtle complexities and challenge.  

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