[Richard_Mandell]

As beloved as Donald Ross and his courses are, we all understand his influence on golf architecture in America, but are his courses truly influential on spreading the game of golf in America?  What would be his ten most influential golf courses on the growth of the game through exposing people to pick up the game of golf or by influencing people to hire him to do additional golf courses?

Which of his courses has had the most lasting effect on the game of golf in America since his death in 1948?  

Is he more influential on the growth of the game of golf through the playability of his golf courses or from the legacy of his golf courses through major championships (although so many of them have been lengthened and changed over the years to accommodate said events, i.e. Oakland Hills, Oak Hill, etc.)?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Richard,

How important was Pinehurst #1 in the development of resort golf and Southern golf? (I would guess playability is the more significant influence.)

[J_ Crisham]

Wanamoisset would be notable in that it shows the brilliance of Ross on a small piece of property. Others such as Seminole come to mind with regard to the siting of holes that maximize the 2 dunes on the property. I wonder also about Sakonnet and Charles River. Maybe Brad Klein will jump in and provide the answers .

[hhuffines]

I'm not qualified to answer but I am really enjoying the new Pinehurst book.  Cheers!

[BCowan]

As beloved as Donald Ross and his courses are, we all understand his influence on golf architecture in America, but are his courses truly influential on spreading the game of golf in America?  What would be his ten most influential golf courses on the growth of the game through exposing people to pick up the game of golf or by influencing people to hire him to do additional golf courses?

Which of his courses has had the most lasting effect on the game of golf in America since his death in 1948?  

Is he more influential on the growth of the game of golf through the playability of his golf courses or from the legacy of his golf courses through major championships (although so many of them have been lengthened and changed over the years to accommodate said events, i.e. Oakland Hills, Oak Hill, etc.)?

1.  Not sure

2.  Some Famous ones and many not well known.  Just the fact that most cities big or small have a Ross course in them is a great lasting effect on the Game of Golf!  Don't know a Ross course you can't walk and his courses set up well for a wide level of playing abilities.  

3.  Playability of his courses, you see what you get!  He had his own style.  His greens and bunkering were had great definitions.  He didn't have forced carries, less than 3 water hazards, used limited amount of land, and you don't lose 2 sleeves of golf balls playing his courses.  He designed members courses and Championship courses.  Is it Mr Ross's fault people planted 75,000 trees on a course he designed and built ponds for beauty that he prob wouldn't have been in favor of?  

[Connor Dougherty]

Richard this is an interesting point, but in terms of growth of the game wouldn't the number of courses he did indicate growth of the game? Ultimately he ended up building a few hundred courses which remain interesting playing fields which thousands of golfers get to enjoy every year.

[Patrick_Mucci]

As beloved as Donald Ross and his courses are, we all understand his influence on golf architecture in America, but are his courses truly influential on spreading the game of golf in America? 

When you're directly or indirectly responsible for creating 400+ courses, I'd say that's a strong measure on his influence in terms of growing the game.

What would be his ten most influential golf courses on the growth of the game through exposing people to pick up the game of golf or by influencing people to hire him to do additional golf courses?

His work at Pinehurst, the Tufts resort, would probably have been his most influential since it was available to all.

Which of his courses has had the most lasting effect on the game of golf in America since his death in 1948?

See above 

Is he more influential on the growth of the game of golf through the playability of his golf courses or from the legacy of his golf courses through major championships (although so many of them have been lengthened and changed over the years to accommodate said events, i.e. Oakland Hills, Oak Hill, etc.)?

Neither.

His numerical production was the greatest influence on the growth of the game

[JC Jones]

3.  Playability of his courses, you see what you get!  He had his own style.  His greens and bunkering were had great definitions.  

Can you tell me what a Ross green is and what its characteristics are?

He didn't have forced carries, less than 3 water hazards, used limited amount of land, and you don't lose 2 sleeves of golf balls playing his courses.

Are you saying Ross NEVER designed a course with a forced carry?  Where do you get the "less than 3 water hazards" number from?  Did he write somewhere that he would not have 3 or more water hazards?  Are you certain he never designed a course with more than 1 water hazard?

[BCowan]

3.  Playability of his courses, you see what you get!  He had his own style.  His greens and bunkering were had great definitions.  

Can you tell me what a Ross green is and what its characteristics are?
Contours are similar in many of his greens, more noticeable from region to region in the country IMO.  

He didn't have forced carries, less than 3 water hazards, used limited amount of land, and you don't lose 2 sleeves of golf balls playing his courses.  

Are you saying Ross NEVER designed a course with a forced carry?  Where do you get the "less than 3 water hazards" number from?  Did he write somewhere that he would not have 3 or more water hazards?  Are you certain he never designed a course with more than 1 water hazard?   Very few forced carries and less significant in length to modern designs, name a course that has a significant forced carry and or more than 3 hazards?  Yes he wrote less than 3 hazards in GOLF HAS NEVER FAILED ME, I said no more than 3 hazards.  He felt golfers hated to lose golf balls and that it wasn't needed!

[Richard_Mandell]

Mark, I don't think Pinehurst No. 1 had a major effect on resort golf or southern golf at all.  Pinehurst really didn't come into real influence until somewhere between 1907- 1910 (i.e. when No. 2 became a full 18 and when No. 3 was built).  I say that because at the time, just one golf course (No. 1) wasn't that impressive of a deal to garner much influence elsewhere.  I also question whether two courses would have much influence.  But by the time three courses came on line, then people started to take notice.  At that point, there was enough attraction generated that people began to come to Pinehurst more and take what they saw elsewhere, particularly the desire to start golf courses.

I have never seen anything about Ross and a number of water hazards per golf course.  I don't think Ben was talking in specifics as much as in general philosophy.  I think he was just pointing out characteristics.  Hopefully we can stay on task with this thread and not spiral out of control.

Regarding characteristics of Ross greens, I remember back in 1991 at one of the first Donald Ross Society meetings at Pinehurst, I played with an attorney, an insurance salesman, and some other non-golf related business person. All I heard were comments about how this is Ross and this isn't Ross and I thought to myself I must be missing something with all the studying of Ross I had done to date, because I was not aware of their observations.  Later that night, I sat with Ron Whitten and Ron Forse and told them what I observed.  Their reaction was that those guys didn't know what they were talking about, which I agreed with.

In other words, it is very hard to really pinpoint specific "Ross green characteristics".  But I will point out a few items (which could be very easily associated with any number of other architects:

1.  Always surface drained in more than one direction.

Actually, that is probably the only one I can really think of.  Disappointing, but probably quite accurate.  He tried just about everything imaginable, including mixing up square and rounded greens, dividing greens into quadrants and sometimes into three distinct areas, utilized ridges for separation (and sometimes not), etc. etc.


Pat - Obviously the number of courses he did influenced the game, but I am asking for specific courses.

With this thread, I am looking for influence and not attention, though.  In other words, which of his courses influence golfers to play more or build more (beyond Pinehurst)?

[Tim Martin]

As beloved as Donald Ross and his courses are, we all understand his influence on golf architecture in America, but are his courses truly influential on spreading the game of golf in America?  What would be his ten most influential golf courses on the growth of the game through exposing people to pick up the game of golf or by influencing people to hire him to do additional golf courses?

Which of his courses has had the most lasting effect on the game of golf in America since his death in 1948?  

Is he more influential on the growth of the game of golf through the playability of his golf courses or from the legacy of his golf courses through major championships (although so many of them have been lengthened and changed over the years to accommodate said events, i.e. Oakland Hills, Oak Hill, etc.)?

1.  Not sure

2.  Some Famous ones and many not well known.  Just the fact that most cities big or small have a Ross course in them is a great lasting effect on the Game of Golf!  Don't know a Ross course you can't walk and his courses set up well for a wide level of playing abilities.  

3.  Playability of his courses, you see what you get!  He had his own style.  His greens and bunkering were had great definitions.  He didn't have forced carries, less than 3 water hazards, used limited amount of land, and you don't lose 2 sleeves of golf balls playing his courses.  He designed members courses and Championship courses.  Is it Mr Ross's fault people planted 75,000 trees on a course he designed and built ponds for beauty that he prob wouldn't have been in favor of?  

I don't know that one of the Ross design tenets was to use a limited amount of land. Remember that his crowning achievement at Pinehurst No. 2 sits on just shy of 200 acres. He could certainly do more with less but I think he worked with what he was given big or small.

[Bruce Wellmon]

  [color=orange?] Yes he wrote less than 3 hazards in GOLF HAS NEVER FAILED ME, I said no more than 3 hazards.  He felt golfers hated to lose golf balls and that it wasn't needed![/color]

Biltmore Forest.
Hole 1 creek, forced carry.
Hole 2  creek on the right, pond on right.
Hole 3, forced carry pond.
Hole 4, creek on the right.
Hole 17, forced carry creek, creek on right also.

[BCowan]

Richard

    I haven't read GOLF HAS NEVER FAILED ME in 16 years, but if my memory serves right he did say no more than 3 water hazards on a course.  Many hazards were added to his designs.  Also forced carries i was referencing long par 4's - med. ones allowed for a ground game up the middle.  I notice a Ross feel in greens slightly different in Mich/Ohio vs Pinehurst area (hence i used region).  Just as he had more bunker styles than many think IMO.  

   I notice crowned greens at Inverness that are similar to #2, but #2 has more crowned greens.  The contours are a little different in Pinehurst area but you can recognize it.  Always surface drained in more than one direction i would agree with.

[JC Jones]

Very few forced carries and less significant in length to modern designs, name a course that has a significant forced carry and or more than 3 hazards?  Yes he wrote less than 3 hazards in GOLF HAS NEVER FAILED ME, I said no more than 3 hazards.  He felt golfers hated to lose golf balls and that it wasn't needed!

Actually, you said "less than 3."  Nonetheless, several people will cite several courses and I'll cite one that breaks every rule you stated, Seminole.  But that doesn't really count anyway because they allow 5-somes....

[Jason Thurman]

I know a great Ross course with water in play on four holes. All are forced carries, one a substantial carry of about 170 yards over water on a par 3 that plays into an often very strong wind. Two others are on very long par 4s, one on the approach. While I would agree that he didn't use forced carries often, he also wasn't afraid of them.

One of the central theses driving Brad Klein's "Discovering Donald Ross" is that Ross really had few tendencies. His courses show a lot of variation. I think it's a bit reductionist to assign hard and mathematical rules to them.

[BCowan]

  [color=orange?] Yes he wrote less than 3 hazards in GOLF HAS NEVER FAILED ME, I said no more than 3 hazards.  He felt golfers hated to lose golf balls and that it wasn't needed![/color]

Biltmore Forest.
Hole 1 creek, forced carry.
Hole 2  creek on the right, pond on right.
Hole 3, forced carry pond.
Hole 4, creek on the right.
Hole 17, forced carry creek, creek on right also.

    Are you sure the ponds were original?  How long are the forced carries?  Those are his guidelines, i am sure people break them from time to time.  I didn't clarify that he didn't have many forced carries over bunkers on med-long holes, always allowing the Ground game.  I am sure many on here know Ross history far better than I.  

[JC Jones]

I know a great Ross course with water in play on four holes. All are forced carries, one a substantial carry of about 170 yards over water on a par 3 that plays into an often very strong wind. Two others are on very long par 4s, one on the approach. While I would agree that he didn't use forced carries often, he also wasn't afraid of them.

One of the central theses driving Brad Klein's "Discovering Donald Ross" is that Ross really had few tendencies. His courses show a lot of variation. I think it's a bit reductionist to assign hard and mathematical rules to them.

There have been many threads on here discussing the fact that there is no such thing as a "Ross green."  Part of this is due to the fact that he didn't build and wasn't present for the building of so many of his courses.

A great read on the subject comes from the brilliant Dunlop White, http://www.dunlopwhite.com/www.dunlopwhite.com/Restoration_and_Tree_Management_files/GAV5_PINEHURSTGREENS.pdf

[Mike_Young]

Rich,
IMHO and not being a DR expert... I think his major influence on spreading the game was his design/construction style more than any one course.  He designed a course that fit and  could be interpreted and put on the ground by local labor in many places that did not even know what golf was.
I would say that for a course to be influential it either had to host majors or be in a location where it was seen and played by many.  So I don't see many as being influential.  
As for how he got people to hire him....I'm not sure but I would assume it would go back to the NE.  Probably got a lot of referrals thru his brother Alec in Boston and Detroit.  Think about it....George Fazio hanging ot at Pine Valley was the logical choice for many members going back to their hometowns.  I think the same happened for DR in the beginning. JMO

[BCowan]

Very few forced carries and less significant in length to modern designs, name a course that has a significant forced carry and or more than 3 hazards?  Yes he wrote less than 3 hazards in GOLF HAS NEVER FAILED ME, I said no more than 3 hazards.  He felt golfers hated to lose golf balls and that it wasn't needed!

Actually, you said "less than 3."  Nonetheless, several people will cite several courses and I'll cite one that breaks every rule you stated, Seminole.  But that doesn't really count anyway because they allow 5-somes....

     3 or less.  and those are from his notes!  General rules aren't absolutes!  The question really comes to mind, is will the avg golfer lose golf balls on a Ross courses due to water hazards and I'd say very few!  He also said beware of the guy with the tape measure!  

[Tim Martin]

I know a great Ross course with water in play on four holes. All are forced carries, one a substantial carry of about 170 yards over water on a par 3 that plays into an often very strong wind. Two others are on very long par 4s, one on the approach. While I would agree that he didn't use forced carries often, he also wasn't afraid of them.

One of the central theses driving Brad Klein's "Discovering Donald Ross" is that Ross really had few tendencies. His courses show a lot of variation. I think it's a bit reductionist to assign hard and mathematical rules to them.

The Orchards in South Hadley Massachusetts has a creek running North/South through the property creating at least a handful of water hazards and 3 forced carries. As evidenced by a number of examples already cited I think it is a mistake to try and pigeon hole Ross.

[Richard_Mandell]

Mike,

I agree with your comment, "I would say that for a course to be influential it either had to host majors or be in a location where it was seen and played by many.  So I don't see many as being influential." I am not too sure one can really say his courses are influential on a grand scale.  his design philosophy, etc. yes, but his courses no, with the exception of Pinehurst as a vehicle for his business (like Fazio at Pine Valley).

That said, are there any ones that have hosted majors that we could really say were influential based on his architecture?  So many of his courses have been bastardized to accommodate majors over the years, I wonder if one could really consider them still Ross courses (i.e. Oakland Hills and Oak Hill, which always come to my mind first).

On the subject of hazards, a creek that comes into play on numerous holes is still one creek, but I am trying to ignore the side thread here.  Maybe someone can start another one regarding his number of water hazards.

By the way Hart, glad you are enjoying the book.  I sold 200 the first eight days.

[BCowan]

Richard

    I am sorry, i don't want to mess your thread.  I agree with your assessment of one creek on an entire course one hazard.

Would you think that i regions of the county DR used the same Construction company to build his course for the most part ( i know he built many ).  It is a feel i can't explain with greens in similar areas being similar in complex IMO.  Does this make sense?

I agree with most of what you said.  Some Championship courses of his are trying to return to the original design.  Some bunkers have been altered completely and not their greens.  

[Greg Holland]

Perhaps  a resort course like Mid Pines -- largely unchanged since the 1920s, and golfers return year after year.  It has good history with some famous golfers.  It is very playable -- is an enjoyable walk, has a couple of great short par 4s, a few solid, long par fours, the one shotters are good with a short one, a long one, and variety, etc.  I play in a tournament there every fall, and every year the group loves it from the scratch guys to the 36 handicappers.  It challenges but does not beat up good golfers, average golfers can manage a good round and never lose a ball, and even hackers can enjoy a round there and come back for more.  

[Nigel Islam]

Mike,

I agree with your comment, "I would say that for a course to be influential it either had to host majors or be in a location where it was seen and played by many.  So I don't see many as being influential." I am not too sure one can really say his courses are influential on a grand scale.  his design philosophy, etc. yes, but his courses no, with the exception of Pinehurst as a vehicle for his business (like Fazio at Pine Valley).

That said, are there any ones that have hosted majors that we could really say were influential based on his architecture?  So many of his courses have been bastardized to accommodate majors over the years, I wonder if one could really consider them still Ross courses (i.e. Oakland Hills and Oak Hill, which always come to my mind first).

On the subject of hazards, a creek that comes into play on numerous holes is still one creek, but I am trying to ignore the side thread here.  Maybe someone can start another one regarding his number of water hazards.

By the way Hart, glad you are enjoying the book.  I sold 200 the first eight days.

No architect has had more different courses host majors than Donald Ross. I think sometimes we get a little caught up in "original" work around here. Nothing is really original after the first rain.

[Richard_Mandell]

Ben, you haven't messed up this thread at all, it is just the responses that are trying to move it to another topic, which is typical of things here forever.  I do agree with you on your assessment that some of his courses built in particular regions have a similar feel to them and that is because they were built by different construction foremen of Ross's such as Walter Hatch, Irving Johnson, and Ellis Maples.

Nigel,  all golf courses evolve over time and it is true that sometimes we do get too caught up in "original", but you must admit that when a Donald Ross course is completely overhauled in the fifties or sixties by someone like RTJ for the sole purpose of toughening it up for the pros and then a different architect comes in every decade since to overhaul it, that is an example of going way too far away from the original.  

Greg, I think your consideration of Mid Pines is an excellent example of Ross' influence.

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