[BCowan]

When Ohio State renovated its Scarlet course, I am told that one major source of opposition came from the older members, not so much because the already very difficult course was being lengthened to 7500 yards or the large bunkers were being made deeper, but because losing over a year of use greatly reduced the number of rounds they had left in their lives.  When the sun is setting, things other than the newest grasses, best sand, extra couple hundred yards, appealing to the flat bellies, etc. seem more important.  

+2, The Greens at OSU needed to be redone.  I believe the bunkers didn't have drainage in them originally.  I went to OSU and wasn't happy with how they maintained it.  One could also argue that others didn't play Scarlet because it was in poor shape for the incredible design that it is!  The renovation wasn't just lengthening the course, they did great job with tree removal and many other projects!  Can we not adjust in Society (course closed) for better use for future generations?  It's not as though OSU have gassed their greens 3 times in 30 years like some other courses have done!  

[Jerry Kluger]

The problem is the greatest if there are other alternatives in the area when a member is considering resigning from the club.  Also, it is a problem when a major undertaking is permissible with a simple majority vote.  The majority has to remember that the minority may just walk away leaving the majority stuck with more to pay.  It is often thought that the upgrade will attract new members but that is not always the case and can lead to some really tough situations with a whole lot of debt and a lot fewer members.

[mike_beene]

I think the biggest risk is from the members who don't use the club anyway and are looking for an excuse to resign. When a club has a rather significant to its members buy in, then what choice do you really have if you enjoy your club and don't have another initiation fee sitting in your bank. It is actually a nice time to branch out and play some of the other clubs. Our practice areas are staying open as well. Our trees are disappearing at a rapid pace and the whole thing will be worth it. It is inconvenient now.

[Mac Plumart]

All members should continue to pay dues during renovations.  You join a club for no other reason than the love of that club...like a marriage, it is through good times and bad...for richer or for poorer.  When the renovations are done, you will reap the reward from the seeds you sowed.



How do you like that?

 

[Jerry Kluger]

Mac: The problem is that not every member is the same and has the same priorities for the club.  Just because a majority or even two thirds of the club want to do something doesn't mean that it is going to be received and agreed to by the minority.  And don't think that just because they are the minority that they necessarily disagree because of their personal finances. There are plenty of clubs that spent a ton of money on course renovations and wound up with a course that is significantly worse than when they started and are now looking back to the original drawings to bring it back to its original glory.  Or just because the course is now pretty and green with really fast putting surfaces doesn't mean it is better. The situation is even worse with respect to renovations to club facilities where fancy clubhouses and swimming pools have put clubs into financial holes which they sometimes cannot dig themselves out of.

[Brent Hutto]

A few years before I joined, my club did a major renovation. The vote in favor of renovation was carried by a very slim majority, pretty much a 50/50 split. Course was closed for the better part of a year, assessment was somewhere around five thousand bucks and 30-40% of the membership left the club rather than pay money for a  renovation they had voted against. Now a decade-plus later we still have a couple hundred members less than before the re-do.

[Duncan Cheslett]

All members should continue to pay dues during renovations.  You join a club for no other reason than the love of that club...like a marriage, it is through good times and bad...for richer or for poorer.  When the renovations are done, you will reap the reward from the seeds you sowed.

Really?

I would have thought that people join a club for a host of reasons; 'love of the club' coming pretty low down the league table.

More likely people join a club because it is convenient for their home or office, they have friends there, they like the course, or that it falls into their price range.

As Adrian says, this simply wouldn't work in the UK. Outside of the real top clubs, any club suggesting that the course be closed for a year would see a mass walk-out.

[Mark Chaplin]

The most major renovation I've seen is at Scott's club in Sydney and they have kept at least half the course open all the time. It is perfectly easy to do serious work at the convenience of the membership and not the contractor.

[BHoover]

My former club voted down a much-needed renovation a few years ago because many members balked at the thought of paying dues while only half the course would be open at any one time during the renovation. So it's not always the case that keeping the course open during a renovation will keep folks happy.

The difficulty in getting a renovation through at a member-owned club is that not all members are in it for the same reason. Yes, there are some that are in it for all the "right" reasons (course, friends, atmosphere, architecture, etc.). But there are some who just want a course to play and don't care about architectural integrity or improving the course. Others actually love the overgrowth of trees and think that a renovation would "ruin" their course (oddly enough, it's funny how many folks suddenly become tree-huggers when it comes to their course).

If you're club can overcome the obstacles and roadblocks to approve the renovation, consider yourself lucky.

[Joel_Stewart]

The most major revocation I've seen is at Scott's club in Sydney and they have kept at least half the course open all the time. It is perfectly easy to do serious work at the convenience of the membership and not the contractor.

I'm told that doing 9 holes at a time can add at least 15% more on the costs.  In this case it's probably more.

This was a member owned course that bought out the membership by a private entity.  There is significant work to be done, a rerouting and major tree work.

[JESII]

They have to expect significant attrition...hopefully followed by significant uptick in members to recoup the costs.

If this is a profit focused private entity (as opposed to the Scottsdale deal recently discussed) then we have to assume prices are going up as well.

[Tim Martin]

All members should continue to pay dues during renovations.  You join a club for no other reason than the love of that club...like a marriage, it is through good times and bad...for richer or for poorer.  When the renovations are done, you will reap the reward from the seeds you sowed.

Really?

I would have thought that people join a club for a host of reasons; 'love of the club' coming pretty low down the league table.

More likely people join a club because it is convenient for their home or office, they have friends there, they like the course, or that it falls into their price range.

As Adrian says, this simply wouldn't work in the UK. Outside of the real top clubs, any club suggesting that the course be closed for a year would see a mass walk-out.

Duncan-All the things you mention are reasons to belong to a club no doubt. What  Mac  is saying is that the ideal club is one that you do love and will make sacrifices for because the end game is an enhancement that benefits all. I don't know what the protocol is across the pond but here in the US reciprocal play is often times set up with area clubs with the expectation that the same arrangement will be afforded it's members if and when the situation arises.  I am not trying to levy a judgement against any individual's motives but only that they were likely looking for a reason to go in the first place. Tough for me not to applaud those that stick around as loyalty has a way of being rewarded.

[Sean_A]

Sheehy

We have had two assessments levied on the members; one for the reservoir and one for the new watering/drainage/pump system.  Though, the assessments will be carrying on for years, I think capped at £500 - £50 a year.  The club was quite sensible in looking for ways to pay for the new work using assessments, bank loans, reserves, member loans.  I must admit that over two winters there was barely any course disruption and most members were incredibly impressed by how smooth the two projects were carried out.  One major reason against closure of the course in the UK for major clubs is the loss of green fees.  The green fees will easily off-set any extra charges due to keeping the course open.  The members also remain much happier.  Its a win/win so far as I am concerned.  

At my old club a developer wanted to buy the land and offer us anotehr parcel to build a course.  More or less, the older members voted it down saying they only have so much golf left in them.  It didn't much matter if that golf was on a better course.

Ciao      

[BCowan]

Duncan

    I enjoyed reading your response.  I agree with most of it.  I am curious if you have member volunteer groups across the pond?  We used to have them in the states 50+ years ago at some of the private clubs.  My guess is that more US courses have been ''bastardized'' by well intention people than across the pond.  I also agree with Mac, however I don't think every proposal is good for a club and some are not wise.  Many boards over here don't get more than one estimate when spending money on the club's behalf.  I have seen courses do a good job with tree removal and bunker work in house for a very small cost.  Selling the idea of tree removal is difficult to the older generation at clubs.  I think most would agree that any money spent should be focused on the Golf course vs the facilities for that is what i think attracts new members the most and keeps people paying their dues.  I am always leery of boards selling the idea of renovating or adding onto a clubhouse for a greater return down the line.  I don't agree with the logic that the people were going to leave anyway.    

[Tim Martin]

Duncan

    I enjoyed reading your response.  I agree with most of it.  I am curious if you have member volunteer groups across the pond?  We used to have them in the states 50+ years ago at some of the private clubs.  My guess is that more US courses have been ''bastardized'' by well intention people than across the pond.  I also agree with Mac, however I don't think every proposal is good for a club and some are not wise.  Many boards over here don't get more than one estimate when spending money on the club's behalf.  I have seen courses do a good job with tree removal and bunker work in house for a very small cost.  Selling the idea of tree removal is difficult to the older generation at clubs.  I think most would agree that any money spent should be focused on the Golf course vs the facilities for that is what i think attracts new members the most and keeps people paying their dues.  I am always leery of boards selling the idea of renovating or adding onto a clubhouse for a greater return down the line.  I don't agree with the logic that the people were going to leave anyway.    

Clubs can do in house tree removal to a point but when large hardwoods are involved they almost always lack the requisite insurance, skill set and equipment. Additionally when retaining a certified arborist/tree removal company the cost can be huge. Have a guy that is used to mowing fairways get involved in a tree clearing accident and wait for OSHA and your insurance carrier to come knocking.

[Brent Hutto]

They have to expect significant attrition...hopefully followed by significant uptick in members to recoup the costs.

If this is a profit focused private entity (as opposed to the Scottsdale deal recently discussed) then we have to assume prices are going up as well.

I wasn't around back then but I believe this was the pitch for renovation at my club. The problem is, our area was oversaturated with private golf clubs even back during the boom times in the 90's. We were already less than fully subscribed to our target membership numbers as was every other club in town, save one. I think it was probably a pipe dream to think that a couple hundred lost members could be replaced plus another hundred or so in addition just because the renovated course was so much nicer.

We were already the second most expensive club in town and dues went up somewhat after the renovation. No way any significant number of members of other clubs are going to walk away and spend a couple thousand bucks a year more to join the club with the nice, newly spruced up golf course. Sure, it attracted a few dozen ship-jumpers but there weren't hundreds of them out there looking to switch.

I suspect it often comes down to a sizable minority of a couple hundred members are so invested in their pride of membership and so much dreaming of a modernized version of the course they love that they can't conceive of any possibility other than everyone in town flocking to join once the work is complete. They eventually gather a bare majority onto their side, put it to vote and the whole thing goes into What Could Possibly Go Wrong??? type of thinking.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Brian, generally no, one is not obligated to pay an assessment if they are prepared to resign from the club.   That is why assessments (especially in combination with a course closure) inevitably lead to membership resignations.  

[JMEvensky]

 Many boards over here don't get more than one estimate when spending money on the club's behalf.  
    

 Well,I didn't think it was possible,but you've outdone yourself with this one.

 Surely there must be some subject you're qualified to discuss--open heart surgery,Billie Holiday vs. Ella Fitzgerald,the Hegelian Dialectic.Why not contribute to those threads and stay away from the discussion of private clubs?

[BCowan]

Clubs can do in house tree removal to a point but when large hardwoods are involved they almost always lack the requisite insurance, skill set and equipment. Additionally when retaining a certified arborist/tree removal company the cost can be huge. Have a guy that is used to mowing fairways get involved in a tree clearing accident and wait for OSHA and your insurance carrier to come knocking.

   Tim, i understand your position.  Also many mature trees have value in their wood and tree removal fees can be reduced through value of 50+ year old trees.  I have done tree removal with Keepers doing the cutting and they outsourced the stumps to a small company.  The course was in poor economic shape, so they took more risks.  Risk is something that one club has to take into account.  If a club is also more financially sound they are going to most likely outsource this to a company.  

JME,

   Your arrogance is noted.  I am a member of a ''Private Club'' non-equity, and grew up at a equity ''Private Club''!  Both courses are doing the best in their respected areas!  If you have any objections to my post please provide a response with a solution!  

[Carl Johnson]

I'm curious to know the culture around "assessments" in the States as it's not something that really happens over here.

Has anyone come across a scenario whereby an assessment was raised for improvements / renovations etc and when the member suggested that they would have to leave because they could not afford to pay it (or would not as it didn't make financial sense to them), the club told them they were actually obligated to pay the assessment? Granted these sorts of clubs have different membership agreements but would this scenario be (a) pretty standard (b) not standard at all but not unheard of or (c) virtually unheard of?

Brian, as you say, whatever deal (set forth in the club's governing documents) the member has bought into by joining will apply.  But in my limited experience members who do not wish to pay the assessment, for whatever reason, may resign from the club before the assessment is due (or some other specified time) and avoid paying the assessment and further dues.  I've not heard of the experience you describe.

[Tim Martin]

I'm curious to know the culture around "assessments" in the States as it's not something that really happens over here.

Has anyone come across a scenario whereby an assessment was raised for improvements / renovations etc and when the member suggested that they would have to leave because they could not afford to pay it (or would not as it didn't make financial sense to them), the club told them they were actually obligated to pay the assessment? Granted these sorts of clubs have different membership agreements but would this scenario be (a) pretty standard (b) not standard at all but not unheard of or (c) virtually unheard of?

Brian, as you say, whatever deal (set forth in the club's governing documents) the member has bought into by joining will apply.  But in my limited experience members who do not wish to pay the assessment, for whatever reason, may resign from the club before the assessment is due (or some other specified time) and avoid paying the assessment and further dues.  I've not heard of the experience you describe.

I haven't heard of anybody getting tagged for assessments subsequent to resignation. Certainly a business model that would have a short shelf life.

[Patrick_Mucci]

If it's a member owned club, other than cash flow and the impact on marginal members, what difference does it make ?

Sound financial condition is an obligation/goal that leadership must always strive for.

If paying dues during a renovation, voted on by the members, achieves that goal, what difference does it make ?
It's all the "membership's" money.

I'd rather belong to a club with a significant capital and operating reserve than a club that's living year to year, contingent on dues from a high member count.

As to holding former members responsible for assessments, it depends upon the timing of the assessment and the resignation.

If the club passes an assessment mid-year, for that year, and a member resigns AFTER the assessment is assessed, he's still responsible for the assessment.

[Joel_Stewart]

What if it's not a member owned club?

Thats the question.  They were member/owners but now just members.  They seem to be drawing a line in the sand that they now don't want any responsibility in the salaries, taxes or upkeep.  Its a much older membership than its peers.  They just want a place to hit the ball and have no interest in the business.  Sadly they are either naive or ignorant to what it takes to keep a club operating.

[Patrick_Mucci]

What if it's not a member owned club?

Then, it's much easier to walk away from, provided, the club isn't holding your money in the form of a deposit/bond/equity.

Some clubs provide for a return of your deposit/bond/equity, based upon a membership count or other contingencies, so to a degree, depending upon the financial arrangement, the member might be able to walk away, free and clear, or, he might have his deposit/bond/equity debited by club charges, including outstanding dues.

It's not unusual for a club, when owed money by a resigned member, to deduct liabilities against any equity that the club is holding.
ie., member has left the club with $ 1,000 in house charges outstanding.
Member has $ 5,000 bond and wants to redeem it.
Club will send him a check for the net of $ 4,000.

[Adam Warren]

What if it's not a member owned club?

Thats the question.  They were member/owners but now just members.  They seem to be drawing a line in the sand that they now don't want any responsibility in the salaries, taxes or upkeep.  Its a much older membership than its peers.  They just want a place to hit the ball and have no interest in the business.  Sadly they are either naive or ignorant to what it takes to keep a club operating.

How many members at club's really do have an idea of what it takes for a club to operate?  In my experience the people that have an idea of how to run a club are few and far between and often times have experience working in the golf industry.  

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