[Joel_Stewart]

If your course is closed for 12 months or longer, what is the norm?  Full dues, partial or no dues?

[JMEvensky]

If your course is closed for 12 months or longer, what is the norm?  Full dues, partial or no dues?

Assuming member owned,does it really matter? You're going to pay one way or the other.

[BCowan]

Full dues, assessments (possibility), and most area clubs will let you on for reduced/full guest fees... 

[JESII]

Kind of like paying a mortgage while renovating a house, no?

[jeffwarne]

You're still going to have expenses, and NO revenues so.........

[mike_beene]

We are closed for 7 months and pay full dues. Other clubs in town are very generous with their courses

[Tommy Williamsen]

We were closed for 7 months and payed full dues plus a $2000 assessment.  We lost about 25 members.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel,

The club still has to pay taxes, salaries, employee benefits, food and beverage costs and for clubhouse operations.

Why wouldn't you expect to pay full dues ?

Any surplus for the year could be put into the capital fund.

[Joel_Stewart]

F&B and clubhouse would also be closed.  The clubhouse is going to be remodeled as well.

Its an interesting situation, the older members are bitching they don't want to pay dues.

[Patrick_Mucci]

F&B and clubhouse would also be closed.  The clubhouse is going to be remodeled as well.

You didn't tell us that.

Is it a member owned club or is it owned by a third party.

Its an interesting situation, the older members are bitching they don't want to pay dues.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Has anyone ever seen this outside of North America?


I realise there are an awful lot of courses there, but elsewhere the members would surely insisit that renovations/improvements are done over a no of years, meaning only a few holes closed at a time?  With the small no of members most US clubs seem to have, why not do 9 holes a year keeping the others open?

[Adrian_Stiff]

This highlights the difference in UK thinking and US thinking with regard to golf and membership.
There is absolutely no way people in the UK  a club would get all their members to pay their dues if they had no course to play on. Our dues are a fraction of yours as well. They would probably put up with 9 holes this year/next year but they would want discounted fees for temporary greens if it was a long period...they would accept the winter period I think though many would baulk at that.

[Steve Lapper]

Joel,

  In the situation I believe you are alluding to, I'd definitely not charge anywhere near 100% of dues. Perhaps some token amount, but much more will go a long way to alienated the majority of those you'll need to enlist to support your full plans. Just one man's opinion though.

Cheers,

S

[Mike Sweeney]

This highlights the difference in UK thinking and US thinking with regard to golf and membership.
There is absolutely no way people in the UK would pay their dues if they had no course to play on. Our dues are a fraction of yours as well. They would probably put up with 9 holes this year/next year but they would want discounted fees for temporary greens if it was a long period...they would accept the winter period I think though many would baulk at that.

Adrian,

There are 15,000 golf courses in the USA. This site probably talks about a 1000 of them, and many are private clubs in the Northeast, Chicago and California.

Sitting this week in Central Florida, where many Brits vacation, the difference between USA and UK models is fairly small.

[JESII]

In any member owned club environment, I believe there is only one bookkeeping goal, and two ways to get there.

The goal is to run fairly close to flat. One way to get there is to estimate income and expenses up front and adjust over time. The other way is to charge after the fact to cover accumulated expenses.

In the scenario Joel has described, the estimated cost of the project was a function of dues income covering some amount of the overall cost of the operations. If the club had decided to waive dues for the year the project would have to cost that much more.

If it's a corporate owned club they'd have assumed a certain percentage lost dues income and will build that into post renovation pricing.

Certainly an inconvenience, but if this is a member owned facility it would have required most of the members to agree to a plan ahead, no?

[JMEvensky]

Certainly an inconvenience, but if this is a member owned facility it would have required most of the members to agree to a plan ahead, no?

Yes,but...

Say the club gets 80% of the membership to sign on. Even with an overwhelming majority,it doesn't take many resignations to make the projections get way off the mark. And you never really know how many members will resign.

Then,you're always going to have some members who insist that new members' initiation fees rise to include the new capital improvements--even if the market won't bear it.

It's a delicate dance.

[JESII]

No doubt!

That said, a full 100% closure for over 12 months is pretty drastic. Never heard of that before.

FWIW, in the Philly area, when a club goes through a closure they typically find dozens of reciprocal arrangements where no money changes hands but a count of rounds played carries over to the following season(s) as credit to the hosting club. Seems a good model.

[JMEvensky]

No doubt!

That said, a full 100% closure for over 12 months is pretty drastic. Never heard of that before.

FWIW, in the Philly area, when a club goes through a closure they typically find dozens of reciprocal arrangements where no money changes hands but a count of rounds played carries over to the following season(s) as credit to the hosting club. Seems a good model.

RE: the reciprocal,same down here.When we re-grassed our greens, every club in town bent over backwards to help. Of course,3 of us converted to Champion at the exact same time,so it got a little crowded around here.

[Anthony_Nysse]

No doubt!

That said, a full 100% closure for over 12 months is pretty drastic. Never heard of that before.

FWIW, in the Philly area, when a club goes through a closure they typically find dozens of reciprocal arrangements where no money changes hands but a count of rounds played carries over to the following season(s) as credit to the hosting club. Seems a good model.

RE: the reciprocal,same down here.When we re-grassed our greens, every club in town bent over backwards to help. Of course,3 of us converted to Champion at the exact same time,so it got a little crowded around here.

We had reciprocals set up the last 2 summers for our members during our renovations. I think this is more common than publicized?

[JMEvensky]

We had reciprocals set up the last 2 summers for our members during our renovations. I think this is more common than publicized?

Agreed--every club knows they'll need a favor someday.

[Lou_Duran]

We are closed for 7 months and pay full dues. Other clubs in town are very generous with their courses

That is also my experience in the Dallas area, though I think access to other courses is normally "within class"- i.e. a C club member normally didn't have access to a B, and never to an A.

[Lou_Duran]

Its an interesting situation, the older members are bitching they don't want to pay dues.

When Ohio State renovated its Scarlet course, I am told that one major source of opposition came from the older members, not so much because the already very difficult course was being lengthened to 7500 yards or the large bunkers were being made deeper, but because losing over a year of use greatly reduced the number of rounds they had left in their lives.  When the sun is setting, things other than the newest grasses, best sand, extra couple hundred yards, appealing to the flat bellies, etc. seem more important.  

[Tom_Doak]

Its an interesting situation, the older members are bitching they don't want to pay dues.

When Ohio State renovated its Scarlet course, I am told that one major source of opposition came from the older members, not so much because the already very difficult course was being lengthened to 7500 yards or the large bunkers were being made deeper, but because losing over a year of use greatly reduced the number of rounds they had left in their lives.  When the sun is setting, things other than the newest grasses, best sand, extra couple hundred yards, appealing to the flat bellies, etc. seem more important.  

That is pretty typical in renovation work at older courses, in my experience.  And they have a point.

By the same token, it is also true that the older members are often the very same members who let the course fall into disrepair in the first place, and made the changes that now require fixing.

[JMEvensky]

By the same token, it is also true that the older members are often the very same members who let the course fall into disrepair in the first place, and made the changes that now require fixing.

I made that point to a couple of older members once--it wasn't well received.

[jeffwarne]

Its an interesting situation, the older members are bitching they don't want to pay dues.

When Ohio State renovated its Scarlet course, I am told that one major source of opposition came from the older members, not so much because the already very difficult course was being lengthened to 7500 yards or the large bunkers were being made deeper, but because losing over a year of use greatly reduced the number of rounds they had left in their lives.  When the sun is setting, things other than the newest grasses, best sand, extra couple hundred yards, appealing to the flat bellies, etc. seem more important.  

+1
Also a lot of people simply like the course as is, the only way they've ever known it,and certainly don't want to lose use of it in order to find out if it will indeed be better.

Minimal disruption goes a LONG way in selling a project to any who might oppose it.(whatever their reasons)

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