News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #125 on: February 04, 2016, 05:52:21 AM »

The new CASC rules are a tough one for members clubs. If I was working for a proprietary I would probably think that the trading advantage needed to be removed or the playing field levelled.

Quite right Ryan, a members club should be used, run and paid for mainly by the membership. It should not be trying to generate excessive income from non members. In reality though how many supposed members clubs are run by a general manager who views the membership as clients not employers. Too many clubs are more interested in the bottom line and not the membership which is why so many struggle today.

Jon

Jon

Members club or not, any business, club or organisation that isn't interested in the bottom line will encounter problems.

It's a chicken and egg in some respects,I agree but the members clubs I have knowledge of chased commercial income after the membership income dried up due to less people playing and over supply. I don't know any who were fine and dandy, chased commercial income and ballsed up their membership.

In reality paying business rates on an empty clubhouse is silly.

Many members clubs subs are greatly subsidised by trading activity. If they were to pay the true costs of running the club, it would be unaffordable or not great value and the vicious circle continues.

Yes, some clubs somewhere are presiding over a self fulfilling prophecy, but I think they are the great minority.

Heat and light 30k. Water 9k Business Rates 37k and plenty more of what is non discretionary spend before you even start. Someone has to pay.

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #126 on: February 04, 2016, 06:00:16 AM »
Wow, £100,000 a year trading with non-members!  The result of this will be status quo for smaller clubs, but increased visitors fees for big clubs..not that bigger clubs were going to stop increasing fees anyway.     


Ciao

Sean

Not many of the bigger clubs or those featured on here are CASC's. Dornoch is or was but most wouldn't comply with the old rules let alone the new ones.

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #127 on: February 04, 2016, 06:08:29 AM »
What would the position be for a private members club who have franchise catering and where the caterers host outside functions (which don't necessarily include club members) but the clubs bar provides the liquid refreshment?


and


a private members club which has an 18-hole course that is for the club members and their guests (plus the usual greenfee visitors and societies) but also has a 9-hole course that is operated on a pay-n-play basis?


Advice appreciated.


atb

Firstly if they're not a CASC, it's irrelevant.

If they are:

The bar income is trading income as is greenfees etc. If it exceeds 100k they must deregister or set up a trading subsidiary, which is not without its issues or uncertainly, particularly if HMRC move the goal posts around gifts from the subsidiary to the CASC.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #128 on: February 04, 2016, 06:52:42 AM »
Ryan,

chicken and egg thing is correct but you only look at it from the turnover side of the equation with the assumotion that costs are fixed. In order for a private members club to survive it has to cover the costs incurred in running the club for the members as a whole. There are many clubs who would see their costs reduced dramatically were they to do only this instead of trying to attract extra outside revenue by offering wider services.

Private clubs need to decide if they are indeed private clubs or proprietary businesses. £100K is more than enough external turnover for them to earn if they really are private. Time to chose.

On the note off splitting off the various parts of the business I suspect HMRC will be keeping very close tabs on that and appose it if possible.

Jon

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #129 on: February 04, 2016, 07:06:18 AM »
Ryan,

chicken and egg thing is correct but you only look at it from the turnover side of the equation with the assumotion that costs are fixed. In order for a private members club to survive it has to cover the costs incurred in running the club for the members as a whole. There are many clubs who would see their costs reduced dramatically were they to do only this instead of trying to attract extra outside revenue by offering wider services.

Private clubs need to decide if they are indeed private clubs or proprietary businesses. £100K is more than enough external turnover for them to earn if they really are private. Time to chose.

On the note off splitting off the various parts of the business I suspect HMRC will be keeping very close tabs on that and appose it if possible.

Jon

Jon

Many costs are indeed fixed. Mandatory costs increase every year. Auto enrolment and living wage this year alone.

What do you do when the membership income doesn't get close to covering the costs of the club exclusively for members. You can make cuts to some extent, but do you then let the club go to shit, or do you cut your cloth accordingly and make use of the members assets ie course and clubhouse to keep going?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #130 on: February 04, 2016, 08:42:41 AM »
Wow, £100,000 a year trading with non-members!  The result of this will be status quo for smaller clubs, but increased visitors fees for big clubs..not that bigger clubs were going to stop increasing fees anyway.     


Ciao

Sean

Not many of the bigger clubs or those featured on here are CASC's. Dornoch is or was but most wouldn't comply with the old rules let alone the new ones.


Ryan


I was under the impression that a big reason for revosed CASC rules was to prevent golf clubs from avoiding tax.  So I assumed there must be some big clubs out there who were doing this. So won't some clubs be de-registering? 


It also seems to me that large percentage of golf clubs would have no chance to slip under the CASC rules with such a low threshold for dues at £10 per week.  For those clubs over that mark, how do the members feel about offering cheaper dues for people who can't pay more?  Man, that would be a hard one to fly past me if my club wanted this.   


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #131 on: February 04, 2016, 09:08:38 AM »
I must confess to not keeping up with developments in this story. Two tier memberships is interesting especially as the elite clubs have been given a rough time over artisan sections. I guess HMRC wouldn't like the elitism.
Cave Nil Vino

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #132 on: February 04, 2016, 10:08:41 AM »
What would the position be for a private members club who have franchise catering and where the caterers host outside functions (which don't necessarily include club members) but the clubs bar provides the liquid refreshment?


and


a private members club which has an 18-hole course that is for the club members and their guests (plus the usual greenfee visitors and societies) but also has a 9-hole course that is operated on a pay-n-play basis?


Advice appreciated.


atb
This has been mooted as a way forward to mitigate losing CASC. I see it different in that I think HMRC will see (if not now sometime in the future) the underlying business (the catering franchise) not being exempt from paying tax/rates, so one part of the trade will be CASCable and rate relief at 80% for the golf course and the clubhouse aspect will pay it's dues. If this was properly explored by HMRC this is what should be happening now anyway. Vivian Saunders will be telling on the clubs anyway that cheat.


It should be rate relief for everyone, no vat for everyone regardless of members/municipal/owned or all pay Vat. Our country is pickled with daft laws, the vat registration threshold is bizarre, small business should pay Vat just the same, the situation of a man quoting for the same job and having to add Vat and another quoting that does not charge Vat is dippy. More appropriate would be once you got your gas certificate or qualified to repair or install electrics, water etc, you charge Vat.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 10:29:50 AM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #133 on: February 04, 2016, 10:19:12 AM »
Wow, £100,000 a year trading with non-members!  The result of this will be status quo for smaller clubs, but increased visitors fees for big clubs..not that bigger clubs were going to stop increasing fees anyway.     


Ciao

Sean

Not many of the bigger clubs or those featured on here are CASC's. Dornoch is or was but most wouldn't comply with the old rules let alone the new ones.


Ryan


I was under the impression that a big reason for revosed CASC rules was to prevent golf clubs from avoiding tax.  So I assumed there must be some big clubs out there who were doing this. So won't some clubs be de-registering? 


It also seems to me that large percentage of golf clubs would have no chance to slip under the CASC rules with such a low threshold for dues at £10 per week.  For those clubs over that mark, how do the members feel about offering cheaper dues for people who can't pay more?  Man, that would be a hard one to fly past me if my club wanted this.   


Ciao


Sean


Many of the wealthier clubs baulked at the requirements of being a Community Amateur Sports Club for the previous scheme so didn't bother registering. The main benefit is 80% Business rate relief which can be from 10k to £100k. HMRC obviously felt the existing rules were too lax with Clubs registered who were neither amateur or truly "Open to the Community". This is not unique to golf, Sailing Clubs and all sorts of costly sports signed up.


HMRC have now specified the amount of participation cost that they deem is the level to be classed as a Community Club.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #134 on: February 04, 2016, 01:46:06 PM »
Adrian,

spot on with all businesses paying VAT. Seems silly not to have this.

Ryan,

the average club with minimum 400 members should be able to generate £300K from subs alone. If clubs cut their cloth accordingly then £300K is sufficient to cover costs. Yes, it might not be all singing and dancing but it would be a reasonable standard.

If I want to have a car that I can't afford and decide to finance it by chauffeuring people for payment then I should not be upset if the authorities expect me to register as a taxi following the regulations as well as paying the appropriate tax. Likewise if clubs want to operate the clubhouse as a public bar and the course as an open pay & play then it should also expect to be taxed and regulated as such.

Jon

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #135 on: February 04, 2016, 02:38:00 PM »
Jon

Those not acting from privilege or self interest will agree with what Adrian says and you on that point as do I. 

If members clubs trade commercially with non members they should be subject to a level playing field.

Where I think we differ is in the decision/response to how it is for members clubs to trade commercially.

Of a typical membership profile of say 600. About half are paying full whack. The rest are juniors, under 30's five day, honorary, frozen subs at aged 75 etc etc.

The proportion of most members clubs subscriptions as a % of income are less than half in many Clubs. 

Members clubs to my mind, and where I agree with you, were mismanaged and adopted short termist attitudes that the good times would last forever.

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #136 on: February 04, 2016, 03:59:54 PM »
I was under the impression that a big reason for revosed CASC rules was to prevent golf clubs from avoiding tax.  So I assumed there must be some big clubs out there who were doing this. So won't some clubs be de-registering? 

The original idea behind CASC almost certainly didn't include golf clubs. CASC was intended for local sports clubs that provide facilities for local people to play football, tennis, cricket etc. - facilities that once would have been provided by the council but now are not. CASC was a way of helping such clubs survive financially and so continue providing a service to the local community.

Golf clubs, sailing clubs etc. jumping on the CASC bandwagon was undoubtedly an unintended consequence which the changes in the regulations is designed to correct.

Unfortunately many smaller golf clubs are now locked in to the 80% discount on business rates, and so cannot afford to lose CASC status, as finding an extra £20k or so a year would quickly lead to insolvency.

Bigger clubs - those with a lucrative side-line in weddings and other functions or with a high number of green-fee paying visitors will undoubtedly find that they no longer qualify as a CASC and will de-register with no ill-effects. Many small local clubs however, have little income from functions and see few visitors or societies. Their best option is undoubtedly to remain a CASC and use the status to their advantage.

It also seems to me that large percentage of golf clubs would have no chance to slip under the CASC rules with such a low threshold for dues at £10 per week.  For those clubs over that mark, how do the members feel about offering cheaper dues for people who can't pay more?  Man, that would be a hard one to fly past me if my club wanted this.   

It all depends on the club.  I don't know if Burnham is a CASC or not, but I would suspect that it would have a tough job on its hands complying with the new regulations, given its popularity with holidaying visitors. I'd be surprised if Burnham took less than £100k pa in green fees, meaning that it cannot now qualify as a CASC whatever else it does.

Many hundreds of local members' clubs in urban and suburban areas throughout the country however, are in a very different situation. They are not the kind of club which attract societies, and any visitors will normally be attracted via TeeOffTimes solely on the basis of price - maybe a tenner per round.

These are the kind of clubs who are locked into the CASC system. Having to pay full business rates would probably bankrupt them so they will jump through whatever hoops that are necessary in order to retain CASC status. If existing members are unhappy with new categories of membership being introduced then they always have the choice of converting to the new category themselves. To disallow such conversion would contravene CASC rules.

As it happens, Reddish Vale is not in such a position. We are currently undecided whether to make the changes necessary to conform to the new rules or whether to deregister. There are good arguments on either side. Some clubs however, quite literally have no choice. The only justification for many clubs withdrawing from CASC will be if they can sell up and divvy up the proceeds between their members.


Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #137 on: February 04, 2016, 04:08:12 PM »

. Our country is pickled with daft laws, the vat registration threshold is bizarre, small business should pay Vat just the same, the situation of a man quoting for the same job and having to add Vat and another quoting that does not charge Vat is dippy.

In principle I would agree, but as a small businessman charging retail customers mainly for his own labour, I find that the current VAT rules work very much in my favour. If I went over the £80,000 registration threshold I would either have to increase my prices by 20% or absorb the VAT at a cost of around £150 per week.

If I could increase my prices by 20% without meeting customer resistance I might as well just do that, keep my turnover below £80k, and play a lot more golf!

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #138 on: February 04, 2016, 04:33:35 PM »

. Our country is pickled with daft laws, the vat registration threshold is bizarre, small business should pay Vat just the same, the situation of a man quoting for the same job and having to add Vat and another quoting that does not charge Vat is dippy.

In principle I would agree, but as a small businessman charging retail customers mainly for his own labour, I find that the current VAT rules work very much in my favour. If I went over the £80,000 registration threshold I would either have to increase my prices by 20% or absorb the VAT at a cost of around £150 per week.

If I could increase my prices by 20% without meeting customer resistance I might as well just do that, keep my turnover below £80k, and play a lot more golf!
I think everyone should have to charge Vat that supplies a service, the £80,000 threshold needs to go. You could increase your price by 20% because everyone else would have too as well, so the trading platform is fair to everyone. As it stands there is a harsh penalty for you expanding your business, as soon as you do so you are penalised by having to charge Vat. That makes no sense, but the government are not formed by the cleverest people and many are actually fairly oblivious to what happens in the real world.


As it stands if I quote for a job and have to charge Vat and you are quoting, you are going too murder me on price for (in principle) the exact same job. That is not fair, whilst I except it is smiley for you. It is a way for the government to collect tax also. All these things according to Europe are illegal because it is a distortion of trade. However, it is just virtually impossible to sue the HMRC because they will make each tier of legal disputing cost multi millions.


If everybody paid more money for things more people would be rich, you need to create more money by keep spending money. Economies go to ratshit when people hamster the money. The internet has made everything transparent and allowed the consumer paradise, the downside is there is not enough profit in many things now and some things will cease, that causes a tsunami, the height of which we won't know but I think it will be a big one.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #139 on: February 04, 2016, 06:49:35 PM »
Adrian


The headache involved with VAT would be a real menace to small companies...hence the £80,000 threshold. It could easily be argued that the cost involved in a struggling company turning over £30,000 is far more disadvantageous than for a company turning over $100,000.  So, I am not with you on this one...the less red tape for small companies the better because it gives them a better opportunity to become bigger companies and provide employment. 


Duncan


Yes, I understand all that and I agree that golf clubs likely weren't in mind for this scheme when it was started,  but I bet a significant percentage of clubs are still registered (and that will probably drop quite a bit).  And yes, Burnham is miles out from qualifying for CASC.  My point was according to CASC rules, clubs charging more than £10 a week must find ways to subsidize members who can show they cannot afford the dues.  I don't know know what the level of proof is for demonstrating unaffordability, but my understanding would be the traditional breaks for women, seniors and juniors is not an affordability issue, more an incentive to join or retain membership.  The CASC rule reads like a mandatory redistribution of wealth from members who are willing to pay to potential members who are not willing to pay full whack...I find it shocking if I'm honest. 


If the government isn't careful, the entire tax break could be spent on dues subsidies. 


Ciao



New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #140 on: February 04, 2016, 07:48:51 PM »
Sean

That is exactly how it is. Divisive and open to abuse amongst a membership unless the affordability is a membership with less access than full membership. Similar to what Duncan describes.  HMRC have said at least one day on weekend must be made available.

HMRC won't define 'low or modest incomes' buts it's been suggested that a reasonable approach is to adopt the same approach as municipal leisure centres or swimming pools, discounts for those in reciept of benefit: Job seekers, council tax, disability etc.


Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #141 on: February 04, 2016, 11:37:39 PM »

I think everyone should have to charge Vat that supplies a service, the £80,000 threshold needs to go. You could increase your price by 20% because everyone else would have too as well, so the trading platform is fair to everyone. As it stands there is a harsh penalty for you expanding your business, as soon as you do so you are penalised by having to charge Vat. That makes no sense, but the government are not formed by the cleverest people and many are actually fairly oblivious to what happens in the real world.

The big problem from the point of view of HMRC is that if every part time dog walker, mobile hairdresser, and semi-retired window cleaner came under the auspices of VAT, the number of registrations would increase phenomenally - by maybe 500% - for relatively little return. The bureaucracy of HMRC would necessarily need to increase accordingly and this would almost certainly cost more than the tax revenue raised. In short, its never going to happen!

Adrian


The headache involved with VAT would be a real menace to small companies...hence the £80,000 threshold. It could easily be argued that the cost involved in a struggling company turning over £30,000 is far more disadvantageous than for a company turning over $100,000.  So, I am not with you on this one...the less red tape for small companies the better because it gives them a better opportunity to become bigger companies and provide employment. 

On the contrary, Sean.

As Adrian pointed out earlier, the current VAT registration threshold of £80,000 actually acts as a big disincentive for any small business offering services to the public to expand by taking on staff.

As soon as the threshold is breached the business must register and charge VAT on ALL its turnover, not just on the amount over the threshold, This unquestionably results in many thousands of small businesses taking the strategic decision not to take on the staff needed to expand the business, as it would require a massive leap in turnover to achieve the same net profit figure enjoyed by the business while it was happily trundling along with barely a care in the world. 

Take the example of a small bed and breakfast establishment with 3 letting rooms. If they charge £90 per night and have an occupancy rate of 75% they will turn over just shy of £79,000 per year, and so not have to register for VAT.

If they convert the attic into a fourth letting bedroom at a cost of say £40,000, charge the same amount per room and retain their occupancy rate they will turn over £98,550 and have to register for VAT.  Of the £90 per room per night, £15 must now be sent to the government, leaving only £75. Net turnover is now therefore £82,125. Hardly any increase in turnover for 33.3% more work and a lot of expenditure!

The figures are mitigated slightly by being able to claim back the VAT on purchases, but once the tax on the capital costs has been reclaimed that is mainly food (zero rated) and labour so the amounts are minimal.

What incentive is there to expand the business?

The best option would probably be to upgrade their existing rooms, charge more in the season, close completely in the winter once the £80,000 VAT threshold had been reached, and fly to somewhere sunny.

 ;D
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 02:36:02 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #142 on: February 05, 2016, 04:06:58 AM »
Jon

Those not acting from privilege or self interest will agree with what Adrian says and you on that point as do I. 

If members clubs trade commercially with non members they should be subject to a level playing field.

Where I think we differ is in the decision/response to how it is for members clubs to trade commercially.

Of a typical membership profile of say 600. About half are paying full whack. The rest are juniors, under 30's five day, honorary, frozen subs at aged 75 etc etc.

The proportion of most members clubs subscriptions as a % of income are less than half in many Clubs. 

Members clubs to my mind, and where I agree with you, were mismanaged and adopted short termist attitudes that the good times would last forever.

Agreed

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #143 on: February 05, 2016, 04:58:13 AM »


Of a typical membership profile of say 600. About half are paying full whack. The rest are juniors, under 30's five day, honorary, frozen subs at aged 75 etc etc.

600?  Is that really the typical membership of a private club?

We have around 350 and another 50 full playing members would mean difficulties in everyone who wants to play on a Saturday getting a game. That would inevitably lead to unrest and defections.

Most golfers and clubs I know are very Saturday-centric and that's when most people expect to get a game.

How do clubs with 600 members keep everyone happy? Spread play through the week by having Sunday and midweek comps?

Make 5 and 6 day membership a LOT cheaper than 7 day?

I'd love to know, because we are initiating a big membership drive and anticipate attracting a lot of members from other local clubs. How do we fit a quart into a pint pot?

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #144 on: February 05, 2016, 05:02:42 AM »

I think everyone should have to charge Vat that supplies a service, the £80,000 threshold needs to go. You could increase your price by 20% because everyone else would have too as well, so the trading platform is fair to everyone. As it stands there is a harsh penalty for you expanding your business, as soon as you do so you are penalised by having to charge Vat. That makes no sense, but the government are not formed by the cleverest people and many are actually fairly oblivious to what happens in the real world.

The big problem from the point of view of HMRC is that if every part time dog walker, mobile hairdresser, and semi-retired window cleaner came under the auspices of VAT, the number of registrations would increase phenomenally - by maybe 500% - for relatively little return. The bureaucracy of HMRC would necessarily need to increase accordingly and this would almost certainly cost more than the tax revenue raised. In short, its never going to happen!

The government need to find a way that keeps things in harmony. Yes I accept it can get a bit red-tapey and an administrative nightmare but if they had an option not to register for sub £80,000, all that really needs to happen is that when you buy your wood, or someone buys hair dye, copper pipe, etc. Vat is charged at 40% to non vat holders and 20% to registered. That goes someway to mitigating the problem and keeping things even and would create that situation of it is good to get bigger and it is a way of taxing people that do jobs on the side, it even taxes the man that does his own DIY. Might not be popular in some quarters but it is fair.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 06:45:09 AM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #145 on: February 05, 2016, 05:20:05 AM »


Of a typical membership profile of say 600. About half are paying full whack. The rest are juniors, under 30's five day, honorary, frozen subs at aged 75 etc etc.

600?  Is that really the typical membership of a private club?

We have around 350 and another 50 full playing members would mean difficulties in everyone who wants to play on a Saturday getting a game. That would inevitably lead to unrest and defections.

Most golfers and clubs I know are very Saturday-centric and that's when most people expect to get a game.

How do clubs with 600 members keep everyone happy? Spread play through the week by having Sunday and midweek comps?

Make 5 and 6 day membership a LOT cheaper than 7 day?

I'd love to know, because we are initiating a big membership drive and anticipate attracting a lot of members from other local clubs. How do we fit a quart into a pint pot?
Duncan - I think RV use the BRS system, you can run reports and look at the useage. The data provided that everyone books a time and does not just roll up is very useful.
I found that half of our members did not play enough to warrant the category they are in.
Around 10% of the membership are paying £100 per round
Around 5% of the membership are paying £10 per round
We have a few members that have not played for a couple of years, one went 4 years before we saw him and then one day turned up "he said to the pro shop, I must start playing more" we have not seen him since.
I think what is important is your relationship to the standard green fee and your subscription fees, anything outside of the 20-30 ratio causes problems, though if it is lower it is usually because high green fees dramatically reduce costs to the membership.
35-45 is the average amount of rounds a member plays at an average club. If you multiply 40 x 700 members, thats 28,000 rounds which coupled with a some society days and green fees equals say 35,000 rounds which is pretty busy.
You should not be having a problem with just 350 members unless you are operating wildly outside these parameters. In theory you could have just 100 members that played every day 36 holes and filled every space.
If it is one day that is a headache then yes you will need to look to create a membership that filters that day.
The BRS system can at a glance show you your busy/quiet times. If you go to 2015 and flick through the months you can guesstimate the days usuage fairly easy. For us on a typical Thursday in the winter we might only do 20 rounds. The BRS system is a very good tool if you wanted to ring me I could show you ours by giving you my password and talk you through it.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 06:52:30 AM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #146 on: February 05, 2016, 06:31:17 AM »
Ironically, I am beginning to wonder whether the "affordable" membership category being forced upon us by the change in the CASC rules might not actually be an opportunity to recruit members and significant extra income.

An "off-peak" membership allowing play on Sunday afternoons and on days and evenings during the week when the course is quiet might well be attractive not only to those of limited means but also some whose family and work commitments make it difficult to justify conventional golf club membership.

If such a category of membership could be priced at under £500 (and I'm pretty sure it could without upsetting 7 day members) then not only the CASC rules are met but we have a potential new revenue stream. 20 guys at £500 a pop is £10k pa straight to the bottom line. You've got to sell an awful lot of extra beer and bacon butties to make a nett £10k!

Watch this space...
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 06:37:56 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #147 on: February 05, 2016, 08:24:03 AM »
Could that be cancelled out by existing members going to the reduced category?

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #148 on: February 05, 2016, 09:05:39 AM »
Possibly, but  I think that it might also work for certain of those members who otherwise might not renew at all. Retaining a member on an off peak deal is better than losing them altogether.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All UK member golf clubs will receive a massive windfall
« Reply #149 on: February 05, 2016, 12:54:41 PM »
Duncan,

if your club finds too many players wanting to play on Saturday with just 350 members then it has had a very poor strategy with its membership playing demographics. If you have more than 1/3 of the membership wanting to play at the same time on a regular basis then something is wrong. A club should handle 600 members no problem and a 9 holer 350 members.

Jon