[Mike_Young]

On a few other threads I was reading of growing bent with fans, trying to hit flop shots from hardpan etc.  
Originally golf was played on land meant for golf.  And since that time all types of efforts have been made to recreate that on land and climates not meant for such.  However, the game can be played anywhere under conditions that work for that locale.  There is no longer a reason to grown a grass where it should not be grown or use a bunker sand from 500 hundred miles away.   The amount of money spent on so many places in trying to replicate the courses of the cooler climates is out of control.  Can that be changed?
What are some of the elements we would see on regional courses that would make them indigenous to that region?  
South
1. ultradwarf greens
2. limited sand bunkers since they would be encased in clay
3. sheet drainage with open ended catch areas
4. limited fescue areas
5. one common grass for fairway and rough

[John Kavanaugh]

I just realized today that the problem with asking these questions here is that they are answered by the people who are most hurt.   The golf industry of over over paid supers, architects and power hungry greens chairmen don't want change. They feed on the corpuses of dead courses and forgotten members. Fuckem all and the raters horses they road in on.

[Mike Sweeney]

5-6 years ago, I had the perfect life. Yale in the summer and Mountain Lake in the summer.

Yale = Clay, wild terrain, no caddies, union greens staff , walking allowed, bent grass, poa, lots of play, very good renovation, Seth Raynor

ML = Sand, flat terrain, no caddies, definitely not union greens staff, walking allowed, bermuda grass, no poa, little play, great renovation, Seth Raynor


Architecture matters!

[Mike_Young]

I just realized today that the problem with asking these questions here is that they are answered by the people who are most hurt.   The golf industry of over over paid supers, architects and power hungry greens chairmen don't want change. They feed on the corpuses of dead courses and forgotten members. Fuckem all and the raters horses they road in on.

John,
So many of the industry you mention have only been trained in that manner.  It's sort of like the tennis women you see at so many clubs who worry all day about keeping up with the Jones, who their husband is sleeping all while taking three or four different medicine for anxiety. They think the little redneck girls are looking at them and yearning when they have no idea the little redneck girls are just having a blast being themselves.  

[David_Elvins]

The amount of money spent on so many places in trying to replicate the courses of the cooler climates is out of control.  Can that be changed?

For sure.

All it needs is for clubs to have less money.

[John Kavanaugh]

I am ashamed and embarrassed that it took me so long to learn that the people who I thought had my back were only concerned about my back pocket.  1981 Merion vs 2013 Merion only loses on wages and leaches. Yet this site is so selfish they want us to believe that 2013 is better because of natural progression. Better for who?  Not a single golfer without ties to the industry in the world. We, the common man, should all quit and let them feed on each other.

[John Kavanaugh]

Truth is:  He who needs golf to eat feeds of golf.

[Mike Sweeney]

We, the common man, should all quit and let them feed on each other.

Was a great post, but then you reached too far. Learn from George Costanza because you ain't no commoner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YaaZZN9VYs

[Nigel Islam]

I am ashamed and embarrassed that it took me so long to learn that the people who I thought had my back were only concerned about my back pocket.  1981 Merion vs 2013 Merion only loses on wages and leaches. Yet this site is so selfish they want us to believe that 2013 is better because of natural progression. Better for who?  Not a single golfer without ties to the industry in the world. We, the common man, should all quit and let them feed on each other.

John isn't that just a microcosm of what is wrong with the country as a whole? We are spending so much money on big government projects, and we kept being told we are better off because of it. Same thing with technological advancements. Are we in reality better off? I think it is just human nature.

[John Kavanaugh]

When the very people who benefit from idiots like me remind us how stupid we are they tread on dangerous ground. I'll cut off my nose to spite my face if it means I can't smell my own stupidity.

[John Kavanaugh]

People who get paid to take their dog to work and ride around in a golf cart go on twitter and call me a moron while I drop $20,000 dollars a year to watch. I think they are on to something.

[Mike Sweeney]

We are spending so much money on big government projects, and we kept being told we are better off because of it.

Nigel,

Not sure if you realize that SOME on this site benefit from Big Government Projects !! LOL

[John Kavanaugh]

We are spending so much money on big government projects, and we kept being told we are better off because of it.

Nigel,

Not sure if you realize that SOME on this site benefit from Big Government Projects !! LOL

I can drop private golf a hell of a lot easier than golf insiders can move to Canada.

[RJ_Daley]

The amount of money spent on so many places in trying to replicate the courses of the cooler climates is out of control.  Can that be changed?
What are some of the elements we would see on regional courses that would make them indigenous to that region?  
South
1. ultradwarf greens
2. limited sand bunkers since they would be encased in clay
3. sheet drainage with open ended catch areas
4. limited fescue areas
5. one common grass for fairway and rough

While Mike says it plain and I think I get his drift, JK speaks in some sort of prophetic and cryptic lingo that just gets a bit too ambiguous to me.  But then again, no one will accuse me of possessing any talent for literary analysis.  

Mike, you obviously know your climate and region and of course make good sense for the south and tropical climates.  Can you point to some of these 5 listed elements of design features in your region that you employed or designed into the project at Long Shadow or Pinellas in Costa Rica?  

What about the region of the desert?  What if water scarcity demands taking X amount of effluent, or else it is a no-go.  And that leads to too soft conditions while trying to emulate aspects of golf design from northern and traditional links like venues?  You have to change your list of 5 elements a bit, but I think it can be done to list elements that would be more climate centric for the desert, and other than cost of water, economical.  What do you think?

[Nigel Islam]

We are spending so much money on big government projects, and we kept being told we are better off because of it.

Nigel,

Not sure if you realize that SOME on this site benefit from Big Government Projects !! LOL

Mike, I didn't actually say they didn't. I just posed a question I just found John's post to be sort of Liberetarian take on the golf course industry.  I certainly don't want to get into any political debates. Sorry

[David_Tepper]

Mike Young -

Are you advocating a return to sand greens where they used to be?

DT

P.S. How many people would live in Houston or Phoenix if they didn't have air conditioning?

[Mike_Young]

I don't know how to take some of JK's comments about those of us that make their  living from golf...BUT he's much closer to right than wrong on the subject. 

RJ,
At the core the object is to play the game by the rules and get the ball in the hole in the least number of strokes.  I'm trying to say that in some places like Costa Rica it may be so dry that the ball rolls 350 yards.  Not because they want firm and fast conditions but because when the clay dries you have a hard surface with not much grass.  The bunker sand is dark and  has large pebbles and may not be the consistency that exist at ANGC but you can play from it.  In Ga the two inch bermuda rough may be much much tougher than any five inch bluegrass and the divot may not cut as cleanly as the bentgrass.  The rough has large areas of dry clay with protruding roots because it's too hot for grasses to grow under the treed areas.  But the course is put there to play the game.  We have to learn to play within a climate but yet we spend millions trying to fight such...

David,
If sand greens were the proper solution for an area and they wanted to play golf then yes....

[RJ_Daley]

Mike, there I go assuming things....

I'm trying to say that in some places like Costa Rica it may be so dry that the ball rolls 350 yards.

I assumed the climate would be very rainy and soils sandy along that coastal area.  I was even nearly going to go there for some dental tourism until about a month ago, and planned to take in Pinellas.  But, things changed.  So, it is clayey and gravelly bunkers, with thicker plants in hardpan in the roughs?  Thus, did you rely on more surface sheet drainage to basins?  

[Tom_Doak]

On a few other threads I was reading of growing bent with fans, trying to hit flop shots from hardpan etc.  
Originally golf was played on land meant for golf.  And since that time all types of efforts have been made to recreate that on land and climates not meant for such.  However, the game can be played anywhere under conditions that work for that locale.  There is no longer a reason to grown a grass where it should not be grown or use a bunker sand from 500 hundred miles away.   The amount of money spent on so many places in trying to replicate the courses of the cooler climates is out of control.  Can that be changed?
What are some of the elements we would see on regional courses that would make them indigenous to that region?  
South
1. ultradwarf greens
2. limited sand bunkers since they would be encased in clay
3. sheet drainage with open ended catch areas
4. limited fescue areas
5. one common grass for fairway and rough

Mike:

This is what I've liked so much about my visits to Gavea (in Rio) and Himalayan Golf Club (in Nepal), and also my trip to the north of Scotland this summer.  In each case they built what worked for that local area, and deal with the conditions they have -- and enjoy the hell out of the game.  That is the real essence of Scottish golf -- firm and fast is only a byproduct.

[Sean_A]

Mike

"Indigenous golf" does work in a lot of places where money and/or the will to spend it is scarce.  

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

"Indigenous golf" does work in a lot of places where money and/or the will to spend it is scarce.  

Beautifully summarised. Sometimes in golf having £$£$ can be worse than having none.
ATB

[Paul Gray]

+1

Humble golf is, by and large, good golf.

[Mike_Young]

RJ,
The dental work in Costa Rica is a deal.

As for the golf soils...much of what I see is lava based and if near the ocean the sand has rolled onto it.  It cracks and opens up in the dry season but it works...I'm not saying it is bad golf just Costa Rican golf.  Of course one resort near us barged in one million in sand a few years back and it made it thru one rainy season.

TD,
"That is the real essence of Scottish golf -- firm and fast is only a byproduct."  I wish more truly understood that...  and Gavea...when I was in Brazil doing some work in the late 80's Mario Gonzales was still around.  He took us out there one day for lunch and to let me see a monkey on a golf course.

Sean and Paul,
Agree 100%...humble golf is a silent majority....Paul, I like that phrase...going ot IM you.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike

"Indigenous golf" does work in a lot of places where money and/or the will to spend it is scarce.  

Ciao

That's half the courses I play.  

[Don_Mahaffey]

I think Wolf Point is a decent example.
We built the greens with soil found onsite.
Although we shaped a lot, it was equally driven by golf and the need to move water as we had heavy soils in an area that can get a lot of rain.
The old "make drainage look good" was the mantra.
Course was built with local labor minus a shaper who was onsite for 6 months.
Project cost less then 3M, which for a big, full sized golf course and includes all the maintenance buildings and equipment...not bad.
I think this is a model that can work....now just need to find another client like that....that's hard part, and it's not just about someone who has money.  

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