[Nigel Islam]

Was the original Willie Dunn biarritz hole more similar to the 16th at Cypress Point than any of the McDonald/Raynor holes?  Certainly the idea of carrying a chasm is there. The CP hole lanks the flanking bunkers. Anyway just a random thought I had.

[Jim Nugent]

I've seen lots of discussion about this on GCA.com.  I'm still confused about the answer.  As far as I know, no one can tell if the green complex at the chasm hole (or any hole at Biarritz) had the trench that is the distinguishing mark of today's hole. 

My guess is that it seems like a bit of overkill.  You already have the incredible chasm feature.  On top of that, you add a deep trench right before or in the middle of the green?

[Patrick_Mucci]

# 9 at Yale is a fantastic par 3.

Chasm to carry

Deep trench traversing the mid-section of the green

Where's the overkill ?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Nigel,

You've seen the Rountree painting of the original, yes? Big chasm just like, uh, MacRaynor's Biarritz 9th at Yale. Also check out Tony Muldoon's search for the original:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,21926.0/

Helpfully,

[Nigel Islam]

# 9 at Yale is a fantastic par 3.

Chasm to carry

Deep trench traversing the mid-section of the green

Where's the overkill ?

Yeah I thought about that after I posted it. Ill need to look at the Yale aerials today. Do you guys agree that Cypress's 16 has some overlap with the original though? What was MacDonald's first Biarritz?

[Mark Bourgeois]

1934 aerial: http://golfcoursehistories.com/Yale.html

[Patrick_Mucci]

# 9 at Yale is a fantastic par 3.

Chasm to carry

Deep trench traversing the mid-section of the green

Where's the overkill ?

Yeah I thought about that after I posted it. Ill need to look at the Yale aerials today. Do you guys agree that Cypress's 16 has some overlap with the original though? What was MacDonald's first Biarritz?

Nigel,

Maybe some of Raynor's alleged lost routing/design found it's way into # 16 

[Nigel Islam]

# 9 at Yale is a fantastic par 3.

Chasm to carry

Deep trench traversing the mid-section of the green

Where's the overkill ?

Yeah I thought about that after I posted it. Ill need to look at the Yale aerials today. Do you guys agree that Cypress's 16 has some overlap with the original though? What was MacDonald's first Biarritz?

Nigel,

Maybe some of Raynor's alleged lost routing/design found it's way into # 16 

Pat,

As crazy as it sounds the thought crossed my mind, because if it was indeed true that he did come up with the hole with Hollins.....Well then that would have been the 220 yard hole........ I certainly suspect the bunkering would have been different, and the complex could have been a biarritz green too. Oh if only Seth had kept records! I had the opportunity to play St Louis last week, and I just got to thinking of the original biarritz, and how it was more similar to the eden hole at St. Louis (3rd) than the actual biarritz (2nd). (See Raynor had experience in the use of back to back par 3s just like at Cypress )

I know I am being ridiculous. But I am trying to be a fun ridiculous!

[Jim Nugent]

# 9 at Yale is a fantastic par 3.

Chasm to carry

Deep trench traversing the mid-section of the green

Where's the overkill ?

Agreed it's a fantastic hole.  Yet as far as I know, it's the only Biarritz that both goes over a chasm, and also has the signature swale.  And CBM/Raynor built a lot of Biarritz holes.  Overkill or not, CBM never duplicated both those features -- except at Yale -- if the original Biarritz did indeed have both of them.  

As George Bahto says in that thread Mark linked, "I think CBM did one of his "composite" holes when he built Biarritz, combining the tee-ball from Chasm and using the Valley of Sin concept from St. Andrews 18."  

The answer to Nigel's question still seems to me "who knows?"

[Tim Martin]

# 9 at Yale is a fantastic par 3.

Chasm to carry

Deep trench traversing the mid-section of the green

Where's the overkill ?

Yeah I thought about that after I posted it. Ill need to look at the Yale aerials today. Do you guys agree that Cypress's 16 has some overlap with the original though? What was MacDonald's first Biarritz?

Nigel-Was Chicago GC Macdonald's first Biarritz?

[Nigel Islam]

The answer to Nigel's question still seems to me "who knows?"

That is why I ask, because on this site usually SOMEBODY actually does know!

[Thomas Dai]

The 9th hole on the St Olaf course at Cruden Bay has a 'trench' style green with the trench set at about 90* to the angle of play. Only thing is, it's only about 100 yds long. ATB

[Nigel Islam]

I have never had the chance to play CGC. I do know that the original CGC which is now Downer's Grove does not seem to have anything much in the way of templates. Also the original Wheaton course was changed quite a bit when Raynor redid it. I think the biarritz is Raynor's there. I would presume Piping Rock to have the first biarritz and Yale the second. I am sure Tom Doak or George Bahto would know for sure. If Yale's were the first then that would make more sense though since it does closely resemble the challenge presented in France.

[Jim Nugent]

Yale is definitely not second.  It's one of Raynor's last.  I think he might have died before it opened.  

[Nigel Islam]

Yale is definitely not second.  It's one of Raynor's last.  I think he might have died before it opened.  

My bad, I made a mistake when I was thinking that one through. You are certainly correct.

[John Butler]

My understanding is that the swale in biarritz holes simply represents the chasm on the original Biarritz course hole - instead of a rocky, watery chasm, there is a swale.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on Today at 09:59:55 AM
# 9 at Yale is a fantastic par 3.

Chasm to carry

Deep trench traversing the mid-section of the green

Where's the overkill ?


Agreed it's a fantastic hole. 

Yet as far as I know, it's the only Biarritz that both goes over a chasm, and also has the signature swale.

It's not like every site has an enormous chasm just waiting for a Biarittz

And CBM/Raynor built a lot of Biarritz holes.  Overkill or not, CBM never duplicated both those features -- except at Yale -- if the original Biarritz did indeed have both of them. 

As George Bahto says in that thread Mark linked, "I think CBM did one of his "composite" holes when he built Biarritz, combining the tee-ball from Chasm and using the Valley of Sin concept from St. Andrews 18." 

The answer to Nigel's question still seems to me "who knows?"

When I last visited Southampton cemetery, I forgot to ask CB and Seth that question.
It'll have to wait until next spring

[Patrick_Mucci]

My understanding is that the swale in biarritz holes simply represents the chasm on the original Biarritz course hole - instead of a rocky, watery chasm, there is a swale.

John,

I think your understanding is in error.

How do you explain the Biarritz at Yale, in the context of your understanding ?

[Tim Martin]

My understanding is that the swale in biarritz holes simply represents the chasm on the original Biarritz course hole - instead of a rocky, watery chasm, there is a swale.

John,

I think your understanding is in error.

How do you explain the Biarritz at Yale, in the context of your understanding ?

Although nowhere near as dramatic as Yale 9 I think the carry on Creek 11 would also be considered a chasm.  Thoughts?

[Nigel Islam]

My understanding is that the swale in biarritz holes simply represents the chasm on the original Biarritz course hole - instead of a rocky, watery chasm, there is a swale.

John,

I think your understanding is in error.

How do you explain the Biarritz at Yale, in the context of your understanding ?

Pat, I think you are saying the orginal biarritz had a big swale in the green. Am I understanding you correctly?

[Mark Saltzman]

My understanding is that the swale in biarritz holes simply represents the chasm on the original Biarritz course hole - instead of a rocky, watery chasm, there is a swale.

John,

I think your understanding is in error.

How do you explain the Biarritz at Yale, in the context of your understanding ?

Although nowhere near as dramatic as Yale 9 I think the carry on Creek 11 would also be considered a chasm.  Thoughts?

Tim, yes. As would the cross-bunkers on 8 at PRC.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on Yesterday at 10:25:54 PM
Quote from: John Butler on Yesterday at 03:47:14 PM

My understanding is that the swale in biarritz holes simply represents the chasm on the original Biarritz course hole - instead of a rocky, watery chasm, there is a swale.



John,

I think your understanding is in error.

How do you explain the Biarritz at Yale, in the context of your understanding ?


Pat, I think you are saying the orginal biarritz had a big swale in the green. Am I understanding you correctly?

NO

[Patrick_Mucci]

My understanding is that the swale in biarritz holes simply represents the chasm on the original Biarritz course hole - instead of a rocky, watery chasm, there is a swale.

John,

I think your understanding is in error.

How do you explain the Biarritz at Yale, in the context of your understanding ?

Although nowhere near as dramatic as Yale 9 I think the carry on Creek 11 would also be considered a chasm.  Thoughts?

Tim,

I think you could make a case for the configuration at The Creek.

As I stated, it's a rare site that has a chasm just waiting for a Biarritz.

And we also know that the templates were varied even though the general theme was well established.

[John Butler]

I respect Bahto's thought that Macdonald's concept of a biarritz was a composite of chasm and valley of sin.

I'm saying that biarritz holes came to have varied features (water, bunkers, swale in middle or front of green) but originally a swale substituted for the chasm, simple as that.

[Bill Brightly]

# 9 at Yale is a fantastic par 3.

Chasm to carry

Deep trench traversing the mid-section of the green

Where's the overkill ?
[/quote

Yeah I thought about that after I posted it. Ill need to look at the Yale aerials today. Do you guys agree that Cypress's 16 has some overlap with the original though? What was MacDonald's first Biarritz?

Nigel-Was Chicago GC Macdonald's first Biarritz?

No, it has to be Piping Rock.

Bill

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()