[Ruediger Meyer]

My immediate reaction when I first saw the mounds was the scene in "Jurassic Park" where they find the pile of dino droppings...

The playing conditions may have changed since I played it, but it played nothing like a links when I was there in 2011. It was very slow and you had trouble to attack the greens with a ground approach. It was raining then and another thing I noticed was the course wasn't draining very good. It isn't a real sandy course from what I could tell. There was a significant amount of clay amongst the sand, which my formerly white golf shoes can attest to from my many excursions into the dino droppings.

I couldn't help but think that the main purpose of this course was to show what can be done with bulldozers (If I am not mistaken the dutch owner of the resort is involved in the distribution of Caterpillars). The course got a huge amount of good press in germany, so I may be completely out of line. But I always took those acclamations with a grain of salt since it was honored as best new course five months before the opening, and for at least a year you couldn't get a golf magazine in germany without huge ads for the course - which might explain the ranking as second-best course in germany (coincidentally in the same ranking the sister course WinstonOpen jumped 20-something spots)

[David Davis]

Ruediger,

Interesting post. Dutch owners...that explains it I guess. Well their bulldozers can indeed move a lot of earth. They proved their points. Unfortunate to hear about the clay but that does sound like something the Dutch might do in trying to get the course to grow in quicker. Ie..adding a layer of clay/soil on top of perfect sand fairways in order to grow the grass.

I think they are even sponsoring Joost Luiten if I'm not mistaken. That makes more sense now that you mention the Dutch owners.

Well, I still hope to get to pay it a visit next year I guess.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Brian,
Thanks for the correction. Here's the real David Krause. 



Looks like he stays busy:
http://www.eigca.org/%5CMemberDetail.ink?MemberID=32&=&SelectFieldName=&SearchCrit=&Name=David%20Krause

and on occasion he gets to express his inner Desmond (Muirhead, not Norma) 

The swan bunker at GC Hanau, hole #18, built to mimic the club logo.




And this Boar's head island green, in the shape of the Hardenburg golf Resort logo   

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

The question is simple, how much is too much or do we get to a point when super artificial becomes architecturally significant? I've only give a simple example of one hole on one course with a photo that is all the hype in Germany. I've not yet played it and for the most part I share the general opinions of the treehouse I'm afraid. I love natural courses that look like they belong there. I love greens with natural shaping that look as if someone walked up and stuck a flag in the ground in the perfect location. I'm slightly prejudiced against this type of course here. During the BUDA I took the guys to one non-classic course that many people in NL are calling NL's top course. They all hated it.

David,

I enjoyed my round at the International as did you and Ulrich, so that's three of us at least. I thought it was a good course despite some of the very angular and geometrical shaping. I like the look of Winston Links and liked the International, so I guess that I'm not opposed to artificial looking courses, so long as they require me to think a little. I didn't expect to play the ground game at the International, nor would I expect to play it at Winston. Once, it's clear to me that a course isn't a links course, I can accept that my bump-n-run may not be to useful, so I need to adapt.

I have to say that the movement in some of those fairways at Winston is amazing. I love the fact that he also incorporated plateaus or shelves in the fairways, although the banks are a bit too steep and he may have overused this feature. I've seen this occur naturally on links courses and wondered why it was not incorporated into new designs. I compliment Mr Krause for his boldness and risk taking. It's nice to see a designer trying something different. It's so much nicer than the awful containment mounding we see much to often these days.  

[Mark Pearce]

Donal,

If the ground game isn't an option, what is the benefit of that movement in the fairways, or around the green?

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Donal,

If the ground game isn't an option, what is the benefit of that movement in the fairways, or around the green?

Mark,

Perhaps I should clarify my statement regarding the ground game. I didn't expect to play the ground game at the International in the same way I'd play it on a links course. I expect the ball to bounce - but not as far or high, and the ball to roll - but not as far as on a links course. The movement in the fairways directs balls in different directions. You might have to avoid a specific line off the tee, since you might risk ending up in a hollow. You may be forced to chip over a hollow or a mound close to the green. Movement around the green may deflect shots that are not hit on the precise line.  Slopes, swales, dips, hollows, banks etc. still play a role on courses that are not a F&F as links courses. A drive hit 250 yards will have enough momentum to bounce on a non links course, provided it's not a bog.

Take for example to hollows on either side of the 4th green at Silloth. You can't run a ball up the banks from the hollows, but their presence forces you into playing your approach (usually 2nd shot) more carefully, perhaps even leaving yourself just short of the green. The hollows still have a function, yet they don't allow a traditional links shot to be played.    

[archie_struthers]

 


Happy thanksgiving all !

To answer the question , you could have a golf course that is almost 100% man made , totally artificial that is significant . Kingsbairns and Bayonne come immediately to mind . ,the idea that a course can't be good if a dozer is used is inane .

The mindset on board here tends to favor minimalist  design , which is fine .  It's just a preference !

[Bill_McBride]

Happy thanksgiving all !

To answer the question , you could have a golf course that is almost 100% man made , totally artificial that is significant . Kingsbairns and Bayonne come immediately to mind . ,the idea that a course can't be good if a dozer is used is inane .

The mindset on board here tends to favor minimalist  design , which is fine .  It's just a preference !

Dr Mackenzie said it best as usual.  The man made features should appear to be made by nature.  

[David Davis]

One thing I really don't love are swan shaped bunkers and boar shaped islands. Yuck!

For me that goes too far. I would of advised both those clubs to settle for their logo on the flags, front gate and letterhead.

I love Kingsbarns as a course, totally manmade as it is, good call Archie.

I do have to say I don't love links like courses that have parkland course fairways and playing characteristics.

[Craig Sweet]

This course isn't anymore "artificial" than Augusta....

[Frank Pont]

I guess the problem is that the eye sees at first glance that the landforms do not fit whatsoever in the surrounding landscape. I am not against moving dirt, but I do want an end result that has a sense of place, that belongs in the landscape where it is a guest, sort of what Brad Klein describes in his last book.

In this landscape they could have built a Kingsley Club with the amount of dirt they moved, and it would have fit. Instead they decided to build a Links on steroids which doesn't.

But I am sure many golfers will love it. But then eating at MacDonalds is also very popular.....

[Josh Tarble]

I actually think this place looks pretty cool.  They were obviously going for a different look, which I think is commendable. The key is having sound design features and playing characteristics.  

If they went for a naturalistic looking links routing, they would get lambasted for making a fake links instead of just using natural contours. Why not go for something completely different and cool? Not everything has to be minimalistic.  Let's just hope it plays as fun as it looks. If it plays like crap all above comments are void.  

[Tom_Doak]

I actually think this place looks pretty cool.  They were obviously going for a different look, which I think is commendable. The key is having sound design features and playing characteristics.  

If they went for a naturalistic looking links routing, they would get lambasted for making a fake links instead of just using natural contours. Why not go for something completely different and cool? Not everything has to be minimalistic.  Let's just hope it plays as fun as it looks. If it plays like crap all above comments are void.  

That's "different" ??

[Mark Pearce]

I actually think this place looks pretty cool.  They were obviously going for a different look, which I think is commendable. The key is having sound design features and playing characteristics.  

If they went for a naturalistic looking links routing, they would get lambasted for making a fake links instead of just using natural contours. Why not go for something completely different and cool? Not everything has to be minimalistic.  Let's just hope it plays as fun as it looks. If it plays like crap all above comments are void.  

That's "different" ??

Yes, I think we can all agree that it's "different".  Whether in a good or bad way is your choice....

[Tom_Doak]

Yes, I think we can all agree that it's "different".  Whether in a good or bad way is your choice....

I guess I just have a different perspective.  I've seen dozens of different attempts to create a faux links course on land unsuited to the task, or even suited to the task.  I even built one myself, way back when in Myrtle Beach.

So, to me it's not a creative idea at all.  I just wish someone would try something DIFFERENT, rather than just spending more money to try the same thing.  Although, maybe that was what the Boar's Head green was about, in which case, maybe the faux links was not so bad  

[Mark Pearce]

Tom,

I'm going to guess that your faux links in Myrtle Beach wasn't quite so busy?  I don't look at the picture of Winstonlinks and think "faux links", I look at it and see some weird middle earth recreation.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Although, maybe that was what the Boar's Head green was about, in which case, maybe the faux links was not so bad  

So?

 

[Josh Tarble]

Tom,
I agree with you that I'd love to see something actually different that challenged the traditional status quo. I'm not even sure what that would look like or be though. I haven't really thought about it, which it sounds like you have.  My comment was directed more at the million courses with no trees, long "fescue" rough and symmetrical mounding. At least it's different from that.

And this may be the bigger comment, but it seems like many developers want something "different" as long as it's 7200 yards par 72 with 4 par 3s and 4 par 5s.

[David Davis]

Tom,

You are comparing your course in Myrtle Beach - which I'm guessing is called The Legends - Heathland with this one in terms of it being a faux links course. I've not been there but looked at some pictures. Honestly, didn't think it looked that bad. It certainly didn't resemble the shaping of this Winston Links. A bit ironic that you call it a faux links and name it Heathland I think. That is if I have the right course.

I'm really curious what do you consider creative and daring then? Or is that something your saving for a special project?

[Ulrich Mayring]

Golf courses are not built to be viewed from the air, so the picture is perhaps artistic, but not appropriate for this discussion. We'd need to see it from the ground, from the golfer's perspective: what would he see?

There is a general dearth of original and/or daring golf course designs in Germany and, I suppose, in the rest of the world as well. But especially in Germany! I do not agree with Tom Doak that this has been tried before - it may have been elsewhere, but not in the German market and that is what the course was built for.

I am therefore not prepared to slam down the gavel on Winston Links except to agree that €120 is too steep (they have a winter rate of €85, which would be appropriate for the summer as well). Golf courses that are daring and original always polarise. That does not mean all courses that polarise are daring and original, of course. But one thing is clear: you need to play those unusual courses in order to find out whether you're a lover or a hater.

That being said, to me it's certainly a better course than NGLA, because I can play it

Ulrich

[Sean_A]

Ulrich

I disagree, the funky bunkers are obviously meant for viewing from the air (a promo stint), why else create the animal shape that can't be discerned from ground level?

Ciao

[Ulrich Mayring]

Sean,

I meant to refer to the picture of Winston Links, that started this thread and shows a very harsh transition between golf course and surrounding landscape plus very pointy mounds, both of which you might not see that way from the ground.

As far as the boar's head is concerned, I played that hole and could discern the shape, because the tee is raised. Although if you've never heard about the boar's head (unlikely, because they make sure you know about it), you might not be able to. Judge for yourself, I took this picture from the tee:



Can't say anything about the swan bunker, as I haven't seen it, only have been told that some members visit it frequently, perhaps too frequently. But generally I would agree with you that those two shapings are for promotional purposes and look better from the air. But I wouldn't want to judge the quality of the course off those pranks, both courses are actually very good.

Ulrich

[Jim_Kennedy]

Sean,

I meant to refer to the picture of Winston Links, that started this thread and shows a very harsh transition between golf course and surrounding landscape plus very pointy mounds, both of which you might not see that way from the ground.

Ulrich

Ulrich,
There is a ground-level photo shoot, and the club's own slideshow, to be found on page one of this thread. Also check out the club's slideshow of their championship course, in particular the couple of photos taken from it that show the Links course.

Interesting comments accompany the ground-level photo shoot.

[David Davis]

Ulrich,

Don't love the look of it for some reason. I guess it seems a bit Mickey Mouse to me from this angle. Everything kind of fits in with the surroundings, even the lake looks pretty natural but then the green complex, even if you don't know it's a boar looks very modern and angular which to me is kind of like listen to music being played out of tune.

[Tom_Doak]

There is a general dearth of original and/or daring golf course designs in Germany and, I suppose, in the rest of the world as well. But especially in Germany! I do not agree with Tom Doak that this has been tried before - it may have been elsewhere, but not in the German market and that is what the course was built for.

Actually, I thought there were laws in Germany against cutting or filling more than 1 meter to build a golf course, so I was surprised to see it.  But I don't think it's right to say it's "original" just because no one had ever done it in Germany.

My problem with it is that it seems clearly designed to look like a links, and then when it's criticized for not playing like a links, the defense is "Who said it was supposed to play like a links?"  But, I would guess that when people say they loved the links look of it, they accept that praise.  

If you don't want people to think it's a links, some different shaping would probably bring less expectations.  At least with the boar's head everyone is honest about what it is and why it's there.

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