[Tim Gavrich]

Is this any more egregious than Whistling Straits? How about Tobacco Road? How about Bulls Bay?

[John Foley]

If I was anywhere near this place I would run to play it. I may end up playing it once but really would like to see this - all the noise does not bother me.

[David Davis]

Thanks Donal,

What's funny is that the course received some loving in 2011 and now everyone is against the artificial shaping.

In any case the intention was not to make the thread solely about this course. Only to find out where you draw the line if at all and get examples.

If it's being compared to Whistling Straits which I have played that's a great compliment as I had a blast there and quite liked that course even though yes it seemed very artificial.

[Adam Clayman]

David, to draw the line, implies a formulaic mindset, or approach.

Perhaps more so in gca, hard and fast rules can be broken. Just not too often. Imo,  The art is in the variety and it's sequential presentation. Routing, therefore, becomes the keystone to the quality.
  

[Don_Mahaffey]

David,
Out of curiosity, why are you so interested in where other's draw the line?

Are you going to like it more, or less, based on what I have to say?

[Andrew Buck]

While I don't think that picture tells me enough in this instance, I think there is some architectural significance to any course that is built on relative flat land that can be fun and challenging golf.  

[David Davis]

David,
Out of curiosity, why are you so interested in where other's draw the line?

Are you going to like it more, or less, based on what I have to say?

Don,

There is a lot of knowledge here and I value the opinions (sometimes). I'm learning all the time and to your example you ask would I like it more or less based on what you say, the answer is maybe. I have a lot of respect for you as an industry expert and if I didn't listen to your opinion on things that would be rather ignorant of me. So while I of course formulate my own views they are built on experience and knowledge gained over time and certainly if I have the opportunity to learn something or even ask it from experts such as yourself with regards to relevant topics then I openly listen. If you can offer insight into the methodology you use then I perceive that of value and relevance as you spent years building up this knowledge.

I've also found that my opinions have been changing a lot during the last two years with visits to places like Wolf Point which leave an impact on how I perceive many elements of the game.

[Eric Smith]

If I was anywhere near this place I would run to play it. I may end up playing it once but really would like to see this - all the noise does not bother me.

+1

I would join if it was in my town.

[Don_Mahaffey]

David,
Out of curiosity, why are you so interested in where other's draw the line?

Are you going to like it more, or less, based on what I have to say?

Don,

There is a lot of knowledge here and I value the opinions (sometimes). I'm learning all the time and to your example you ask would I like it more or less based on what you say, the answer is maybe. I have a lot of respect for you as an industry expert and if I didn't listen to your opinion on things that would be rather ignorant of me. So while I of course formulate my own views they are built on experience and knowledge gained over time and certainly if I have the opportunity to learn something or even ask it from experts such as yourself with regards to relevant topics then I openly listen. If you can offer insight into the methodology you use then I perceive that of value and relevance as you spent years building up this knowledge.

I've also found that my opinions have been changing a lot during the last two years with visits to places like Wolf Point which leave an impact on how I perceive many elements of the game.

Thanks David.
The reason I asked is because I think a course like this will always be controversial. So, it really will come down to how we each feel about what we see.
I have more of an issue (based on the one photo) with how the mounds are used to separate holes and the difference in shaping between the in play and out of play areas. The "radical" or artificial nature of the shaping is less bothersome to me, although I hope they toned in down in some parts of the course.  

[Jason Thurman]

If I was anywhere near this place I would run to play it. I may end up playing it once but really would like to see this - all the noise does not bother me.

Yep.

For the most part, the guys on this site reject the notion that a golf course’s color trumps its playing qualities when evaluating conditioning. We shake our heads at the guys who love “lush and green” because it’s pretty and instead advocate for fast and firm which better tests control and shotmaking while also being more fun.

Yet, some are willing to reject a course simply because it looks “artificial” independent of its golfing qualities. If the course pictured presents fun holes with compelling strategy, I’d love to play it. Naturalism and minimalism can create wonderful aesthetics, but acting like ONLY naturalism and minimalism can create courses with great playing qualities is like deciding that any song with more instruments than just an acoustic guitar is unpleasant. Plenty of people feel that way, and they have a lot of great songs that fit their paradigm, but they also spend their lives missing out on some really amazing music for the sake of preserving a preconceived notion.

[Mike Hendren]

2) No matter the frequency, it is the same old stack up the edges and play between the ridges type of manufactured architecture. If you are going to try and build cool stuff, lets play across it once in awhile. I am so weary of everyone just piling it up along the edges and making that crazy and edgy and then lowering the hole corridor and trying to make it look like the edges, but with the knob turned down a notch or two. If you are going to go artificial, build the whole damn site and then route the golf across, up, and over, and occasionally through it. Golf with all the shit piled up along the edges is so 1980's  

+1, Amen and Bingo!

I've often thought it would be fascinating to have a grading contractor randomly build gradual and sharp elevation changes, then have the architect show up and route the golf course based on what's there.  I've done it on paper for fun and inevitably have blind shots from the tee and fairway.  

Up, over and through architecture is sadly lacking these days.

By the way, the real question regarding the subject course is what is the fee?  Looks like fun to me at a reasonable price.

Bogey

[Sean_A]

2) No matter the frequency, it is the same old stack up the edges and play between the ridges type of manufactured architecture. If you are going to try and build cool stuff, lets play across it once in awhile. I am so weary of everyone just piling it up along the edges and making that crazy and edgy and then lowering the hole corridor and trying to make it look like the edges, but with the knob turned down a notch or two. If you are going to go artificial, build the whole damn site and then route the golf across, up, and over, and occasionally through it. Golf with all the shit piled up along the edges is so 1980's  

+1, Amen and Bingo!

I've often thought it would be fascinating to have a grading contractor randomly build gradual and sharp elevation changes, then have the architect show up and route the golf course based on what's there.  I've done it on paper for fun and inevitably have blind shots from the tee and fairway.  

Up, over and through architecture is sadly lacking these days.

By the way, the real question regarding the subject course is what is the fee?  Looks like fun to me at a reasonable price.

Bogey

Bogey

Similar thinking to me, except I don't trust the contractors to be random enough.  I say pay them to blow hell out of the site then route a course.  The site in question looks like that is what was trying to be achieved, but there is too much and too uniform.  Get the dynamite in to do it properly.

That said, if the price was right and I was in that part of the world - sure, I'd give it a go, but that is in the hope of finding more than meets the eye.


Ciao

[Gary Slatter]

I'd love to play it!  After 30 years of rain and wind and growth the severity will fade.  

[Thomas Dai]

I've just gone back and looked at this photo again, plus the website and the photo tours referenced. I presume it's supposed to duplicate a links, it's called Winstonlinks after all, but there is just so much going on, especially near the greens, that I'm not sure you could play the ground game, and that's pre-supposing the grass variety used would allow you to play the course that way. That said, if the price point were right, I wouldn't be adverse to playing it, if only out of sheer curiosity.
ATB

[Jim_Kennedy]

Sean,
It's $162.00 US/ $120.00 Eu  

[David Davis]

Sean,
It's $162.00 US/ $120.00 Eu  

If you put it like that Jim, I'd not make the long drive there from here to play it for that price. I could play 4 rounds at our reciprocal courses for that price:

 

[Paul Gray]

2) No matter the frequency, it is the same old stack up the edges and play between the ridges type of manufactured architecture. If you are going to try and build cool stuff, lets play across it once in awhile. I am so weary of everyone just piling it up along the edges and making that crazy and edgy and then lowering the hole corridor and trying to make it look like the edges, but with the knob turned down a notch or two. If you are going to go artificial, build the whole damn site and then route the golf across, up, and over, and occasionally through it. Golf with all the shit piled up along the edges is so 1980's  

+1, Amen and Bingo!

I've often thought it would be fascinating to have a grading contractor randomly build gradual and sharp elevation changes, then have the architect show up and route the golf course based on what's there.  I've done it on paper for fun and inevitably have blind shots from the tee and fairway.  

Up, over and through architecture is sadly lacking these days.

By the way, the real question regarding the subject course is what is the fee?  Looks like fun to me at a reasonable price.

Bogey

Bogey

Similar thinking to me, except I don't trust the contractors to be random enough.  I say pay them to blow hell out of the site then route a course.  The site in question looks like that is what was trying to be achieved, but there is too much and too uniform.  Get the dynamite in to do it properly.

That said, if the price was right and I was in that part of the world - sure, I'd give it a go, but that is in the hope of finding more than meets the eye.


Ciao

I've been thinking aobut this idea for a while now. It has occurred to me, and I appreciate this might well be entering the realms of fantasy, that an army might make a pretty good job if let loose free of charge for six months or so. 

[Peter Pallotta]

It's interesting how a course/photo like this brings to light fundamental (or black and white if you will) differences. For me, I realize how much I long for simplicity, in all manner of arts and crafts. But every artist or writer or architect seems to feel compelled to DO SOMETHING to prove his worth (both to himself and to the public), even when doing very little would be best, and when the real art would be to know how/when to step out of the way. (If you put a camera on two World War II vets, one from England and one from Germany, and sat them down at a cafe, and let them talk to eachother for a few hours over tea or beer, and just filmed it,  could any highly polished documentary -- with all its artistic and creative edits and historcial footage and closeups and sonorous voice overs etc -- ever capture the truth and reality and intimacy of those two lives and of that war any better?) So, back to the photo - for me and my black and white thinking, I'd rather play golf in a farmer's field that I can see and touch and smell and recognize as a one time farmer's than to play golf in what should by a natural and soothing environment that's marred by an architect shouting I DID THIS!! (where I sometimes feel like yelling back I DON"T CARE!!)

Peter

[Brian Laurent]

Not relevant to the discussion of the design, but the man in the picture is not the architect. This is Dr. Karl Danneberger of Ohio State's turfgrass program.

What's really disconcerting, at least to me, is the amount of diesel they were using, about 3,500 gals per week of earthmoving (never mind the 1.7 million cu. yds of soil).
 
 From the Buckeye Turf blog:
The design concept is to create a links course. The existing soil is sandy helping to provide many of the attributes of a links course. To date they have moved 1.3 million cubic meters of soil. During 2009 when most of the earth moving was being done, the bulldozers and such were using 12 to 14 thousand liters of diesel a week. The course will be seeded to 100 percent fine fescue from tee to green.

http://buckeyeturf.osu.edu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=161:germany-a-traveling-road-show&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=170

The site, and the architect:



They must have burnt up 60,000 gals. or more of fuel to achieve their results.  That alone makes the finished product 'too far'.  

[Joe Hancock]

It's interesting how a course/photo like this brings to light fundamental (or black and white if you will) differences. For me, I realize how much I long for simplicity, in all manner of arts and crafts. But every artist or writer or architect seems to feel compelled to DO SOMETHING to prove his worth (both to himself and to the public), even when doing very little would be best, and when the real art would be to know how/when to step out of the way. (If you put a camera on two World War II vets, one from England and one from Germany, and sat them down at a cafe, and let them talk to eachother for a few hours over tea or beer, and just filmed it,  could any highly polished documentary -- with all its artistic and creative edits and historcial footage and closeups and sonorous voice overs etc -- ever capture the truth and reality and intimacy of those two lives and of that war any better?) So, back to the photo - for me and my black and white thinking, I'd rather play golf in a farmer's field that I can see and touch and smell and recognize as a one time farmer's than to play golf in what should by a natural and soothing environment that's marred by an architect shouting I DID THIS!! (where I sometimes feel like yelling back I DON"T CARE!!)

Peter

Peter,

The very sort of idea I was trying to get across in another thread. Knowing when to do less is valuable to some.

I've had to say it this way on jobsites recently; " Make it look like we're NOT having a shaping duel!"

Like Steve Martin said, "some people have a way with words, and others not have way...I guess...."

You have way.

Joe

[Sean_A]

Sean,
It's $162.00 US/ $120.00 Eu  

It would have to be very convenient at that price.  

Does anybody know if Germans are turning out?

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

David, I don't like it, and here is why based on that one picture:
 If you are going to go artificial, build the whole damn site and then route the golf across, up, and over, and occasionally through it. Golf with all the shit piled up along the edges is so 1980's  

That was my initial reaction as well.
However, after clicking on the website and looking at the diagrams and pictures, it's not so black and white.
I like the fact that the fairways have great movement in them- not nearly the movement of the sides, but pretty good movement nonetheless.
I like the billowing and rollicking fairways, and the bunkers contained internally within them.

As Don points out though, it would be great to see some of the sharp features that are on the sides, not always on the sides, and  played over and or around.
It is quite 80's in appearance, but appears to have a bit of modern/golden age strategy.

It always amazes me on modern golf courses how many architects (and for that matter superintendents) think playability involves a corridor they deem "fair", or sufficient, and it rarely varies in its width, and has equally bad shit on both sides, but rarely asks a player to play over or around such bad areas, while giving a wide berth to someone who might choose to play to a safe side.
Hint:"native" grass is going to get my attention strategically a hell of a lot more than a bunker supposedly protecting an angle or green.

[Ruediger Meyer]

Sean,
It's $162.00 US/ $120.00 Eu  

It would have to be very convenient at that price.  

Does anybody know if Germans are turning out?

Ciao

I played it a few months after the opening and the course was completely empty. From what I heard from others it hasn't changed that much. They have a second course there which doesn't look as artificial, is a lot cheaper and better frequented.

But you have to consider its location. In the eastern part of germany golf is even less popular than in the western part.

[Colin Macqueen]

Gentlemen,

The course looks extremely busy and a bit distracting in this regard. In the same breath the course does look exciting to me but as Don Mahaffey has already mentioned playing across the topography on the odd occasion would make things much better. The rolling and heaving of the fairways (which I like) seems to be out of kilter with the flanking topography and this jars on me.

A question that shapers may be able to answer.
In constructing the "mounding" why does an architect request, or the shaper create, the crests to be so sharp and jagged?  Was this done simply to be different and attract attention? I would have thought it was more difficult to shape the sharp ridges than a gentler, softer peak …No?
And if the "dunes" are going to, or expected to, mellow over time why not give them a head start with a more moderate initial shaping?

Cheers Colin

[Sean_A]

Sean,
It's $162.00 US/ $120.00 Eu  

It would have to be very convenient at that price.  

Does anybody know if Germans are turning out?

Ciao

I played it a few months after the opening and the course was completely empty. From what I heard from others it hasn't changed that much. They have a second course there which doesn't look as artificial, is a lot cheaper and better frequented.

But you have to consider its location. In the eastern part of germany golf is even less popular than in the western part.

Cheers Rued (if you don't mind having dutch pronounciation as a shortened name - van Nistelrooy didn't do much damage to Germany  )

People seem hung up on the sharpness of the mounding (pencil tips?).  I rather like that aspect and can imagine over time they will look more like Kington's mounding; levelish on top, but still steep, almost like model mountain ranges.  In any case, anything but the choc drops!

Ciao

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