[Terry Lavin]

I love the hole, and the green is fun, but it would be neat to go back to the original design.  I understand where the committee was coming from with their plan to renovate the course but to leave the greens alone.  It might be nice now to go back and restore 2 and 17 to make them more consistent with the rest of the old timers.

What was the original design on 17?  How differently did it make the hole play?  The new (old) green would have to be awfully compelling to justify messing with this green. 

I'm just basing my comment on what Jeff Goldman wrote about Oscar Miles redoing 17 when he was the superintendent.  I've never looked at the original photos.

[Sven Nilsen]

I'm not sure if the green was moved, but the old version used to have a bunker on the left side (and possibly a bunker short right of the green as well).

[Paul OConnor]

I thought the Goldman comment Sven quoted was that the #17 green of the old #2 course, which is in the general area of the current 8th green was rebuilt by Oscar Miles.  Not sure when Oscar's era was.  

The aerial photo from earlier in this thread shows a bunker on the left of the curent 17th green, and it is still pretty obvious where this bunker was as it is now a great grass "bunker."  And the green then, apparently 1945, looks awfully similar to the current green.  Jeff would know more on this.

[Sven Nilsen]

Paul:

There are two references to "17" in Jeff's description:

"In any event, the 8th hole was made up of most of the 1st hole (tee and fairway) and the green site of  17, which was rebuilt by Oscar Miles during his tenure.  12 was changed from a 300 yard par 4 to a 200 yard par 3 by moving the green forward to the face of a hill in 1922 or so.  The historic picture I have posted of 14 has bunkering that looks like nothing on the rest of the course, and more like the work of Park than anything else, but we don't know.  Finally, the 17th green was rebuilt in the 1970s also."

The first is certainly to the current 8th hole, the second (the last sentence) I believe is in reference to the current 17th.

Sven

[Paul OConnor]

Paul:

There are two references to "17" in Jeff's description:

"In any event, the 8th hole was made up of most of the 1st hole (tee and fairway) and the green site of  17, which was rebuilt by Oscar Miles during his tenure.  12 was changed from a 300 yard par 4 to a 200 yard par 3 by moving the green forward to the face of a hill in 1922 or so.  The historic picture I have posted of 14 has bunkering that looks like nothing on the rest of the course, and more like the work of Park than anything else, but we don't know.  Finally, the 17th green was rebuilt in the 1970s also."

The first is certainly to the current 8th hole, the second (the last sentence) I believe is in reference to the current 17th.

Sven

I get it, only, based on the 1945 aerial, the current 17th green looks pretty much the same. So  whatever work was or was not done in the 70's, it doesn't seem to be that major.  Goldman, where are you?

[Andrew Buck]

If I was told I had to make Par or better to save my life, and I got to pick the hole, 17S would likely be the last hole I picked on either course.  Certainly in the last 3 - 4.  Need to execute two long irons/hybrids in a row, ideally with a fade.  

[Terry Lavin]

I look forward to the discussion about 18, a fun, short par 5 hole with one of the more iconic behind-the-green views in American golf.  Not that we'll show it on this no-photo thread!

[Sven Nilsen]

Hole 18 (Par 5) - 530/530/503

The Drive - From a raised area just short and right of the 17th green, the 18th tee plays downhill to a fairway that takes a slight curve from left to right before culminating in our last visit with Butterfield Creek.  The creek lies around 315 yards out, and is only really in play for a massive drive from the White Tees.  A group of 6 or 7 trees guards the inside of the curve of the short grass, and is the only real area to avoid on the drive.  That being said, it is possible to be blocked out on the left side if a pulled ball takes you well into the rough on that side.  The optimal line takes advantage of some subtle downslopes in the fairway on the rights side, and will run out to a position just short of the creek leaving an approach well clear of the treeline on the right across the creek.  Shorter hitters should play to the left side of the fairway, taking the trees inside the dogleg out of play for their second shot.

The Layup/Approach - We'll start with the trouble first.  Although there are a bunch of escape hatches from areas of trouble, the overhanging branches and presence of the creek often lead to a layup to the end of the fairway.  From both the left and right rough, I've witnessed plays that take the golfer well right to the 8th fairway, leaving a wedge or short iron up and over the right tree line to the green.  From the fairway, if you're out of range to the green the question becomes what kind of approach do you want to have in for your third.  A steep upslope sits beyond the broad and flat fairway across the creek, starting and ending about 60 and 30 yards short of the front of the green.  Playing close to this feature (and avoiding a large bunker sitting just to the left of the upslope) may leave a blind shot in, so the play may be to a more comfortably distance back.  If you are in range for your second, the open front of the green will accept a running approach, meaning just about any shot that finds the shelf above the upslope has a good chance of bouncing on.  The left side bunker extends slightly beyond the end of the hill, and requires a bit more carry if it is in your line.  For any approach, ending up short is the desired miss, as the greenside bunkers are set at a depth that adds to the difficulty of recovery, and anything long will leave a nasty pitch back to the sloping away green.

The Green - Similar to the 9th Green, but without the pronounced horizontal ridges, the 18th slopes severely from back to front.  Putts to a front pin from past the hole require a deft touch, and anything climbing the slope may be slower than it looks.  There is no predominate left to right slope on the green, as balls tend to break slightly towards the middle line on most angles.  Beware of the front left pin, as balls will often appear to break up the hill from below the hole.

Notes - With the clock tower of the clubhouse looming in direct view over the green, the 18th on the South Course has the grandest feel of any hole on the property, one befitting the closing hole on a Championship Course.  Unlike the North Course which is separated from the front of the clubhouse by a parking lot, the South Course feels like an extension of the club's lawn.  

Summary - A great closing hole that is often the site of many a turn in fortune.  There's probably no more satisfying feeling after a punch out from the trees than draining the birdie putt left by a 220 yard approach, proving there is more than one way to skin a cat.  I take that back, as without the punch out it would be an eagle.

There's an urban myth (or perhaps not) of a player holing out on the 18th during the waning sunlight hours late in the day to break the course record.  Unfortunately for him, his playing partners, who didn't want to have their buddy lauding his accomplishment over them, were already up by the green when his ball found the cup.  One of them calmly pocketed the ball, and when the player arrived at the green he was told that no one had seen his shot.

[Sven Nilsen]

Breaking the Non-Photo guideline, I'm including a shot of the 18th (borrowed from Jeff's discussion of the renovation) taken from around 230 yards out from the green.  For those that haven't been there, or passed up a chance to play the South after a round on the North, this is what you're missing:

[Andrew Buck]

Breaking the Non-Photo guideline, I'm including a shot of the 18th (borrowed from Jeff's discussion of the renovation) taken from around 230 yards out from the green.  For those that haven't been there, or passed up a chance to play the South after a round on the North, this is what you're missing:

Sven,

Thank you for this thread.  I enjoyed it very much.

[Sven Nilsen]

I wanted to do a quick hole by hole comparison of the North and South Courses at OFCC, but breaking down the various holes into suitable comparisons is a tough task.  From the back tees, the North Course only has two par 5's, while the South Course has three short par 4's that don't really match up very well with anything on its sibling.  So instead of the currently en vogue 18 round boxing match, we're going to break this down into a 4 round amateur bout based on groupings of "like" holes.

Par 3's

South Course - 3rd, 5th, 12th and 14th
North Course - 6th, 8th, 13th and 16th

Notes:  A very close decision here, as each hole individually has a lot to offer.  The 6th on the North Course may be the weakest of the bunch, although the side by side routing of the uphill and downhill 13th and 16th is one of the better uses of topography on the North Course.  The South gets points for variety, both for the spacing of the yardages and for the fact that three of the holes on the North play towards the West.  No two par 3's on the South Course look or play the same, while the same cannot be said for 6 and 16 on the North Course.  The comparison of the two longer holes, 12S and 8N, comes down to a matter of preference.  Both play uphill (12 in a more drastic fashion) and both require a long carry to the surface of the green.  The green on 8 may be a bit more interesting, but I prefer the look and play of 12.

Winner:  South

Short Par 4's

South Course - 6th, 8th, 11th and 16th
North Course - 4th, 5th, 11th and 12th

Notes:  From the gate the South runs away with this grouping, with 6 and 11 being the best of the octet.  There is a lot of love for 12N, but in my mind it represents some of the drawbacks of the North Course.  It is a narrow driving hole with trouble on both sides.  If you lay back, the green is not designed to accept running shots.  It does have a wonderful back to front sloping putting surface that is a bitch to read.  As 8 and 16 South are not everyone's cup of tea, the North could mount a late charge to take the group (especially when considering the green on 11), but 4 and 5 do little sway the vote.  Having watched Ricky Barnes decimate the 4th this summer with a hybrid to the top plateau and a Wedge to 2 feet, an otherwise interesting hole has lost a lot of its luster as most of its compelling features are not in play for the stronger player.

Winner:  South

Long Par 4's

South - 1st, 2nd, 9th, 13th, 15th and 17th
North - 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 9th, 10th, 14th, 17th and 18th

Notes:  You already know the answer to this one, as 3 and 14 on the North might be able to hold up on their own to anything the South Course could throw at it.  When it comes down to it, the back bone of the North Course is comprised of its long par 4's.  This has more to do with the nature of the approaches that the player faces after their drives, generally a long iron to a green raised above the fairway.  While a few of these allow the weaker player to bounce a ball on (namely 2, 14 and 17), many of these holes turn into 3 shotters for the club player (18, in fact plays as a par 5 from the White Tees).  The South Course, however, does not pale in comparison.  The first two holes offer a suitable challenge to start your round, and the 9th and 17th are two great holes that probably would not get built today (the 9th having the blind approach and the 17th with its almost double dogleg nature).  The grouping from the South gets stronger if the 10th hole is converted to a par 4 (as it often is for competition), but it is not enough to overtake the world class offering found on the other side of the clubhouse.

Winner: North

Par 5's

South - 4th, 7th, 10th and 18th
North - 1st and 15th

Notes:  The South wins on volume alone, but even if we just compared the two best of each course (taking 7 and 18 from the South), the result wouldn't change.  1N presents a stern challenge and the start of one of the toughest opening stretches of golf, but it is rather a mundane hole compared to the interest found at either of the holes from the South Course.  15N may be the hardest of this grouping, but the limited strategy is a drawback in my book.

Winner:  South

Depending on what you like in a golf course, the heavy influence on the long aerial ball that is needed to negotiate the North Course may make it your favorite of the two.  The routing of the North Course contains more interest, as each hole generally plays in a different direction from those that preceded it (a common misconception is that the first three holes play to the North, however, by the time you reach the 3rd fairway your angle has swung to the East).  The most architecturally interesting holes are on the South Course, and it is that course that offers the most variety in how holes can be played.

Just my opinion, and I'm more than willing to listen to arguments to the contrary.

[Paul OConnor]

Sven,

I appreciate your great love for OFCC South, but your logic on its greatness compared to the North escapes me completely.  

Round 1.

Par 3’s – 3 South, probably the worst on South is not a good hole.  5 South, great green, below average hole.  12 South, is a good hole.  14 South, ok short hole.

16 North from the back tees at 215, is one of my favorite shots on any par 3 on the property.    The creek, deep bunkering, the creek again, a nasty front third of the green, and an intimidation factor absent on any par three shot on South.  This is a great hole.

13 North is an underrated short hole and has the same disaster left as 14 South, but has a green with some actual life to it.  Uphill tee ball, usually obscured pin bottom, deep bunkers, and some near impossible pin spots make this hole both fun and treacherous.  

8 North – This hole is just a bitch with a long uphill tee ball, tough deep bunkers and a fabulous green.  As much as I like 12 South, 8 North is a better hole.

6 North – Probably the weakest hole on the entire North Course, but it’s still a better hole than 3 South.

So I have this match 10-8 North after Round 1.

Round 2.

Short Par 4’s – .  To dismiss 4 North because Ricky Barnes hit a hybrid 260 yards from the Members tee means exactly squat.  How did Ricky Barnes play 11 South?  Did he hit driver to the front edge and chip up to 2 feet?  Does that hole suck because of that?   Do you think Ricky Barnes is shitting his pants on 6 South hitting a 110 yard wedge to the green, after bunting another hybrid to the perfect position.  I think not.

This PGA Tour outlier has nothing to do with the playing, the challenge, the enjoyment, or the rating of these golf holes by 99.9999% of people who play either of these courses, and to suggest that it does is nonsense.  I know you and others have great love for 6 and 11 South, they are fun holes, and 6 might even be called a great hole, but 11 is a 340 yard par 4 with tons of room off the tee and a huge green.  I guess it has great “strategic value” because you have to decide which side of the bunker to hit your drive.  Whoopee, it’s still a wedge from wherever your drive lands.  I think this is the easiest par 4 on the course.  

8 South is not a good hole, might even be called a bad hole.  16 South has a tough and fun green, but is not a good hole.   And the whole screwed up routing of 8 and 9 on South detracts from the whole so much, I for one just can’t find room in my heart to pardon this gross deformity.  It’s not just about each hole, it’s about the sum of the parts, each of their relation to the whole, and the tempo and rhythm of the round.  The 8-9 issue on South is just such a scar.  I can’t get passed it.
 
4 and 5, 11 and 12 North are the short par 4’s.  All are really good holes for different reasons, but great holes for how they tie the entire tapestry of the routing of North together, and how they contribute to the rhythm of the round.  And the routing and rhythm of North is what really seals the deal for me.  4 and 5 come after the brutality of 2 and 3, giving you a chance to make a few birdies, but neither hole is a pushover.   11 and 12 come after a tough three hole run, again, giving you the chance to score on a few holes before the final 14-18 swing that is as tough and demanding a stretch as you will find anywhere.  Many a great round has been trashed between the back of 13 and the green on 18.  

North 10-9.  Probably shouldn’t be that close.

Round 3.

Long Par 4’s – Seriously, North has two ALL WORLD long par 4’s, and then 2, 9, 10, 17, and 18, are all great.  South has 2 and 17 that are great.  The rest…, …well not that great.  In a four round amateur fight, the south gets knocked down 4 times in this round, is bleeding from the nose and ears, and has one eye completely swollen shut.  Any merciful referee would stop the fight.  

North 10-6

Round 4.  In the unlikely event this match is still going…

Par 5’s – I think you dismiss 1 North a little too easily, and to suggest that ANY of the South’s par 5’s are less mundane is preposterous.  From the 630 yards tips, 580 Black tees, two deep bunkers off the tee and OB left await your first swing of the day.   More tough deep bunkers around the green, and probably the best change at a birdie all day make this a must score on hole.  No pressure, 2 and 3 are waiting.  #4 South is a nothing hole compared to 1 North, and not much of a hole compared to nothing.  7, 10 and 18 are fun par fives, but are far from great holes.  

15 N – It’s a 570 yard par 5 with tight drive, penalty shot waiting on the right, and 40 oak trees waiting on the left, plus a really wicked green.  I see the college kids hit hybrids to the left side of the fairway short of the bunkers, just to get in the right position and avoid death right.   What is the great strategy on any of South’s par 5’s?  Hit the drive into the correct half of the fairway and blast away at the green?  

This fight is stopped early.  KO.  

[Terry Lavin]

The South prevails only vis a vis the short par-4's.  The South Course's #6 and #11 are exceptional holes, just remarkable holes that tower over anything comparable on the North.  

Otherwise, the North kicks the South's ass on this analysis.  

[Sven Nilsen]

Paul:

And there you have the greatest issue in the rating and ranking game, there's no accounting for personal preferences.  For two midwestern parkland courses that sit within mere yards of each other, they have very different styles, and different feels.

From a type of hole perspective, I'm not a big fan of downhill par 3's, yet I suspect they don't bother you as much if at all.  I like reachable par 5's that are receptive to a long running shot, something I think the North Course lacks.  I also really like short par 4's that are chock full of interesting features (I don't need 18 of them, but I like when a few good ones are staggered through the course).  The only par 4 on the North that comes close to this in my book is 11, and in truth I'd consider all of the holes in this category from the North mentioned in my last post to be better described as mid-length par 4's.  

For playability, I prefer wider playing corridors with a minimum of trees to be managed.  Part of what gives the North its teeth is the need to negotiate several dense tree lines (4, 5, 12, 14, 15 and 18).  You can make the same argument about the South course in places, but more often the trouble found there is due to the placement of a single tree (corner tree on 2, the tree across the creek on the left of 10, 11 and the massive tree guarding the right side of the fairway on 16).  My tastes run to open greens as opposed to those with deep corner and/or fronting bunkers creating narrow entrances (as found on 1, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 17 and 18 on the North).  

I also think the South Course makes the golfer think a bit more than the North.  I'm not making the argument that it is replete with choices to be made on angles of attack, but I do think that its contours allow for more shots to be played away from the hole and the rolling nature creates more shots where club choice and type of shot need to be carefully examined.  There are quite a few holes on the North Course that are one dimensional in the manner of play, as the bunkers, hazards and surrounds often dictate a line of attack.  For the average golfer, the North Course is an exercise in avoiding trouble spots.  And as they normally don't have the carry distances to play past the trouble, the resulting longer approaches can be overwhelming.

I retract the Ricky Barnes example used to discuss the 4th and agree that using the outlier examples to analyze these courses makes no sense.  Although the hole is a bit landlocked and has a few trees that could be taken down, it is a good golf hole.  The two tiered fairway is a thing of beauty, and the green is one of the tougher ones on the course, both to hit and to putt.  But it does exemplify a few of the qualities of holes on the North Course (as described above) that are not necessarily my cup of tea.

As a test of golf skill, there is no question in my mind that the North Course is the better course, and deserving of the title of the Championship Course on the property.  But that is not all that I look for when thinking about the merits of a golf course.  

If anything, I hope this thread encourages others to not forego a round on the South Course if they have the chance, and to make up their mind as to which they like better for themselves.  The presence of two courses on the same property that can evoke such different reactions from two players just adds to the strengths of the club.  It may come across as if I'd play the South 9 times out of 10, but the reality is it would probably be a pretty even split, and I think that says a lot when analyzing a 36 hole facility.

Respectfully,

Sven

[Rob Curtiss]

Sven,

I am playing the North course at Olympia Fields this spring because I am trying to play all the U S open courses.
are you saying I should also play the South course?

[Paul OConnor]

Sven,

I am playing the North course at Olympia Fields this spring because I am trying to play all the U S open courses.
are you saying I should also play the South course?

RCurtiss,

OFCC North is currently undergoing a complete replacement of all bunkers, and a rebuild on nearly every tee box.  Scheduled to be completed Spring 2014.  A couple new bunkers are going in too.  Spring weather will dictate how fast all this work is completed.  I'd recommend scheduling your visit later in the year, early fall is best, when all the new work has settled in.  And yes, I think Sven is suggesting that you should probably play South also.

[Rob Curtiss]

Thanks Paul...great Information.. I will schedule for fall.

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