Golf Magazine's Top 100 - Let the games begin!

[GeoffreyC]

I agree with Noel 100%.  The Kingsley Club is a masterpiece.  Except for Friar's Head it is clearly the best new course I've seen in quite a while. That's one heck of an obvious omission if in fact its not on the list.

Oops- forgot to include Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes in that list of new courses I've seen recently -BUT- I like Kingsley Club better then Bandon!

[THuckaby2]

GC - that's the spirit, but more vitriol would be better.  Won't someone call the GM raters idiots/stupid/ignorant/only interested in amenities like we poor GC raters are labelled?

Yes, I am going to have some fun with this.  

TH

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Oh, cheer up, Tom...

[Scratch_Nathan]

TKC didn't make it.  Like most GCAers, I try to make it my business to know of every great new course in the US and I'm unfamiliar with TKC.  Perhaps I don't spend enough time on GCA.  While I'm obviously not the universal measuring stick, perhaps the course has a relatively low profile and not enough raters have been there for it to rate.  GM has a pretty small panel of less than 90, so that could be a reason.  To be honest, I'm shocked that enough raters played Hidden Creek for it to make the list.

[Nigel_Walton]

The UK won't receive this issue for some time yet. Is anyone able to post the lists?

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

The magazine only hits the newsstands here next Tuesday, Aug. 12...

[GeoffreyC]

Scratch

Check Ran's course profile for the Kingsley Club. Tom Doak had a few criticisms here in his discussion of Top 50 lists I believe but I disagree.

Tom H.- no need to insult raters of any persuasion. These are only opinions after all and it could catch up with the truly best word on lists come March  

[THuckaby2]

GC - dammit, that is too wise and truly ruins my fun.

But oh yes, come March I ought to have some fun also, given no list is ever gonna please everyone... So maybe I'll just take the risk and sling the shit anyway now, and then.

 

TH

[Scott_Burroughs]

Huck,

The NAFFER (and others, I hope) knew that TKC wasn't on the list because Scratch listed all of those courses new to the list and TKC wasn't one of them and wasn't on the list previously.  

[THuckaby2]

Scott:

Aha... thanks.  Logic and me are too often strangers.  

TH

[Scratch_Nathan]

Ah yes... Here you go.

US First, World later...

1-10 - PV, Cypress, Shinnecock, ANGC, PB, No. 2, Sand Hills, Merion, Oakmont, WFW
11-20 - Pac Dunes, NGLA, Seminole, Prairie Dunes, Crystal Downs, Oakland Hills, SFGC, Fishers, Bethpage Black, Chicago, 21-30 - The Country Club Championship, Riviera, Muirfield Village, Olympic Lake, Southern Hills, Oak Hill East, Baltusrol Lower, The Golf Club, Shoreacres, Medinah No. 3,
31-40 - Whistling Straits, Garden City, TPC Sawgrass Stadium, Inverness, LACC North, Maidstone, Quaker Ridge, Camargo, WFE, Harbour Town
41-50 - Somerset Hills, Scioto, Bandon Dunes, Kiawah Ocean, Spyglass, World Woods PB, Ocean Forest, Valley Club of Montecito, Congressional Blue, Peachtree
51-60 - Wade Hampton, Shadow Creek, Cherry Hills, Baltimore Five Farms East, Yeamans, Homestead Cascades, Honors Course, East Lake, Colonial, Olympia Fields North
61-70 - Briar's Creek, Piping Rock, Pete Dye GC, Double Eagle, Hazeltine National, Plainfield, Torrey Pines South, Long Cove, Yale, Myopia Hunt
71-80 - Forest Highlands Canyon, Hidden Creek, Baltusrol Upper, Canterbury, Wannamoisett, Black Diamond Quarry, The Dunes Mi., Kittansett, Newport CC, The Creek
81-90 - Interlachen, Desert Forest, Lehigh, Pasa, Blackwolf Run River, Nantucket, Shoal Creek, Crooked Stick, Sea Island Seaside, Mauna Kea
91-100 Firestone South, Laurel Valley, Bel-Air, Ridgewood West/East, Milwaukee, Bellerive, Atlantic, Galloway National, Indianwood Old, Salem

[Nigel_Walton]

Thank you Scratch.

[Matt_Ward]

I'll just start with the analysis that GM did regarding Jersey courses.

There is no way -- not even for a moment -- that Hiddden Creek is in the top 100 within the USA! Talk about hero worship regarding the architects -- I have huge respect for C&C but Hidden Creek is just not top 100 material when Fenway doesn't make it and Plainfield is only a few notches above Hidden Creek. I would not even rate HC among Jersey's top ten because the quality of courses in the Garden State is thaaaaaaaaaat good. For those who follow such things candid comments regarding HC may get you banned from the course so watch what you say or the "dark side" may grab you!

I also can't see how Ridgewood (East & West) deserves such top billing -- the work to remove trees has been quite good but more needs to be done. If you want a superior course at the Jersey Shore play Galloway National a superb TF design that flies well below the radar screen. Where did Hollywood finish?

Mike Vegis:

Congrats on the placement of TOC -- it's well deserved -- but I have to say that after discussion with a number of key people I respect the issue for TOC will be on getting the greens in tip top shape on a daily basis. Be most interested to see how thing turnout later this year.

Geoff Childs:

Don't buy your comments regarding Pinehurst #2 and Winged Foot / West -- both are superb and as good as they get for the total examination they provide.

Noel Freeman:

The Kingsley Club most certainly belongs in the top 100 -- if you compared TKC to HC you would find a major gap between them and frankly I have heard the arguments expressed by Tom Doak and I don't buy them. TKC is a superb course that lacks only in the awareness level that astute panelists should have noticed but didn't.

[THuckaby2]

Yes Scratch - thank you very much for taking the time to post that.

And hmmmm... do my eyes deceive me or is there no Kapalua -Plantation on the list... Obviously Ran's vote carried little weight.  

TH

ps - Ran, if and when you read this, please understand I am just giving you crap because you are the one person known to all on the GM panel... A buddy of mine is also on it but he doesn't participate here.  It's all in good fun, in turn for all the crap I personally got re GD list, even though my vote is one of 700+ there...

[GeoffreyC]

Matt - don't get me wrong.  I love and respect both of those courses a whole lot but they are not in my personal top 10. I fully understand and respect and appropriately rank the total examination they provide I am commenting on my personal preference. I do need to see WFW again after the new tree removal. #2 went down a bit when I played it with the new grasses on the greens (G2 ?) which I think make them a bit goofy and over the top.  Maybe that's better for a US Open but for everyday play I prefer the way tehy were before.  I just happen to prefer the architecture at places like Prairie Dunes, Pac Dunes and NGLA a bit better.

I guess only GW correctly identified and recognized the great stuff at Fenway.

[david h. carroll]

Congo over Five Farms??? C'mon!  And I guess the fact that Pete Dye G. C. made the cut answers Mr. Hurricane's earlier thread.

[Jim Franklin]

I'm playing Hidden Creek tomorrow so I will be able to see first hand if it deserves its lofty position in GM. I was glad to see Pete Dye GC make it on the list although I would place it higher.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Kauri Cliffs @ World # 49

It is a cool website, but is it another Old Head that falls off after the ocean views have faded? Has anybody played it?

Hurricane,

HC is my favorite course at The Shore but I have not played Galloway National, yet. Like the other C&C courses, it is a very fun course to play. I am playing Friars Head later this month and look forward to the comparison of the two courses.

[Jim Franklin]

Any reason none of the Saucon Valley course are not rated? I have not played any, but have a friend that is a good player and says they are his favorite courses anywhere. Granted, he has never been out west, but has played up and down the east as well as Ireland.

[Tom_Doak]

I suspect that The Kingsley Club still would not have been seen by enough of the panelists to give it a shot at the top 100.  I'm sure Mike D. would know which of the panelists have been there, but the course has only been open for a year and a half, and it's a short season up here.  I don't even know who's on the panel anymore, but aside from Ran and myself, I don't know who's played The Kingsley Club.  Hell, to my knowledge only 7-8 panelists have yet been to Lost Dunes, which is five years old, and I'm an "insider."

That could be good for it in the long run ... most courses benefit from a small sample, because the people who go first are the ones who are most likely to like them.  Torrey Pines is benefitting from this, too ... I haven't seen it since the renovation so I had to withdraw my old vote, so the people who have seen it are long-hitting players and the USGA brass who were behind the changes in the first place.  Plus, they're always pumping up future major championship sites ... wait and see what happens to Olympia Fields and Whistling Straits next time.

At least half of the last ten are unworthy so there's plenty of room for improvement.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Here's a comparison of rankings between 2003 and 2001 (with 2003 first):
1.   Pine Valley   Pine Valley
2.   Cypress Point   Cypress Point
3.   Shinnecock   Pebble Beach
4.   Augusta National   Augusta National
5.   Pebble Beach   Shinnecock Hills
6.   Pinehurst No. 2   Pinehurst (No. 2)   
7.   Sand Hills                Sand Hills
8.   Merion                Merion (East)
9.   Oakmont                Oakmont
10.   Wing Foot W   Seminole
11.   Pacific Dunes   Winged Foot (West)
12.   Nat’l GL of Am    San Francisco
13.   Seminole                Prairie Dunes
14.   Prairie Dunes   National GL of America
15.   Crystal Downs   Crystal Downs
16.   Oakland Hills   Oakland Hills (South)
17.   San Francisco GC   Pacific Dunes
18.   Fishers Island   Fishers Island
19.   Bethpage Black   Chicago GC
20.   Chicago                Olympic (Lake)
21.   The Country Club    The Country Club
22.   Riviera                Oak Hill (East)
23.   Muirfield Village   Baltusrol (Lower)
24.   Olympic Lake   Muirfield Village
25.   Southern Hills   Riviera
26.   Oak Hill East   Southern Hills
27.   Baltusrol Lower   Bethpage (Black)
28.   The Golf Club   The Golf Club
29.   Shoreacres   Whistling Straits
30.   Medinah No. 3   Camargo
31.   Whistling Straits   Medinah (No. 3)
32.   Garden City   TPC at Sawgrass
33.   TPC Sawgrass    Garden City GC
34.   Inverness   Winged Foot (East)
35.   LACC North   Los Angeles (North)
36.   Maidstone   Quaker Ridge
37.   Quaker Ridge   Shoreacres
38.   Camargo                Inverness
39.   Wing Foot E   Maidstone
40.   Harbour Town   Shadow Creek
41.   Somerset Hills   Bandon Dunes
42.   Scioto                Scioto
43.   Bandon Dunes   Spyglass Hill
44.   Kiawah Ocean   Harbour Town
45.   Spyglass                World Woods (PB)
46.   World Woods PB   Ocean Forest
47.   Ocean Forest   Somerset Hills
48.   Valley Club of Montecito   The Honors Course
49.   Congressional Blue   Cascades (Upper)
50.   Peachtree   Cherry Hills
51.   Wade Hampton   Peachtree
52.   Shadow Creek   Wade Hampton
53.   Cherry Hills   East Lake
54.   Baltimore Five Farms East   Nantucket
55.   Yeamans                Congressional (Blue)
56.   Homestead Cascades   Valley Club of Montecito
57.   Honors Course   Double Eagle
58.   East Lake   Colonial
59.   Colonial                Baltimore (Five Farms East)
60.   Olympia Fields North   Black Diamond
61.   Briar's Creek   Interlachen
62.   Piping Rock   Canterbury
63.   Pete Dye GC   Shoal Creek
64.   Double Eagle   Wannamoisett
65.   Hazeltine National   Kiawah Island (Ocean)
66.   Plainfield                Pablo Creek
67.   Torrey Pines South   Yeamans Hall
68.   Long Cove   Long Cove
69.   Yale                Pasatiempo
70.   Myopia Hunt   Pete Dye GC
71.   Forest Highlands Canyon   Salem
72.   Hidden Creek   Baltusrol (Upper)
73.   Baltusrol Upper   Plainfield
74.   Canterbury   Blackwolf Run (River)
75.   Wannamoisett   Olympia Fields (North)
76.   Black Diamond Quarry   The Dunes
77.   The Dunes Mi.   Kittansett
78.   Kittansett   The Creek
79.   Newport CC   Forest Highlands
80.   The Creek   Oak Tree GC
81.   Interlachen   Hazeltine National
82.   Desert Forest   Firestone (South)
83.   Lehigh                Myopia Hunt Club
84.   Pasa                Crooked Stick
85.   Blackwolf Run River   Desert Forest
86.   Nantucket   Sea Island (Seaside)
87.   Shoal Creek   Yale University
88.   Crooked Stick   Laurel Valley
89.   Sea Island Seaside   Pumpkin Ridge (Witch Hollow)
90.   Mauna Kea   Jupiter Hills (Hills)
91.   Firestone South   Estancia
92.   Laurel Valley   Butler National
93.   Bel-Air                Piping Rock
94.   Ridgewood West/East   Bel Air
95.   Milwaukee   Newport
96.   Bellerive                Indianwood (Old)
97.   Atlantic                Stonewall
98.   Galloway National   Troon GC
99.   Indianwood Old   Bellerive
100.   Salem                Pumpkin Ridge (Ghost Creek)

[NAF]

Has anyone the WORLD list???.. I would rather see where some of the UK courses are.. I'd like to see how Kingsbarns (formerly #40) fares..

[Mike_Sweeney]

Dr Childs, Tommy, Tim Weiman,

Is Roger Rulewich the MOST underappreciated golf course architect in the world?

[Scratch_Nathan]

Don't have time for the entire World list, but here are the British Isles courses:

Muirfield (3)
St Andrews OC (6)
Royal County Down (10)
Royal Portrush Dunluce (12)
Ballybunion Old (13)
Royal Dornoch (16)
Turnberry Alisa (17)
Carnoustie (26)
Birkdale (28)
Royal St. George's (32)
Royal Troon (38)
Portmarnock (40)
Sunningdale Old (44)
Woodhall Spa (46)
Lytham St. Annes (54)
Loch Lomond (56)
Ganton (62)
Kingsbarns (65)
Royal Liverpool (72)
Lahinch (73)
Cruden Bay (76)
Wentworth West (78)
Walton Heath Old (82)
European Club (98)

[Scratch_Nathan]

You are very quick.

Is Rye that good?