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Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
We discuss memberships that "Don't get it" all the time...
« on: November 06, 2013, 12:38:40 PM »
Let's discuss one that does.

Many of you may know that I belong to Clovernook Country Club in Cincinnati, a 1923 Langford and Moreau design built on just over 100 acres. While the course has seen some tree planting and a limited number of changes to one or two bunkers over its 90 years, the majority of the course is still as L&M built it with the only real exception a slight shift in the angle of the 13th tee. As a result, it stands as one of the most intact Langford designs still standing.

The club hosted a group of GCAers back in August, which generated a fair amount of buzz in the membership. Clovernook members (myself included) have a bit of an inferiority complex within the Cincinnati golf landscape. We aren't as highly rated as Camargo, and we aren't as #BallSoHard as Kenwood. We don't have the Ross name that Maketewah and Hyde Park have. Most members have little knowledge of who Langford and Moreau are, and yet, we're very proud of our course. We know we love playing it, and hosting a group from a Golf Course Architecture website made a lot of guys feel like we finally got a little bit of attention. I fielded numerous questions about what the "Golf Architecture Guys" thought over the month or two after the GCA outing. Within a week or two, our GM had asked me to host a dinner to discuss the course and the Golden Age principles it displays. We billed it as a discussion of golf course architecture, Langford and Moreau, and the Golden Age of golf course design.

We hosted the dinner last night, and even my unrepentant ego was surprised at the turnout. We had over 40 members in attendance. A few of the best players in the club attended. We also had a lot of higher handicappers and a few guys in their 80s who can't physically play anymore. We had a wide spectrum or ages and a large representation of women and men. We had board members and committee members. I planned for 75 minutes or so, and we went well over two hours with questions and comments and insight from the older guys into what the course looked like back in the '40s. We had to wrap up a little after 9:00, but not before establishing that it's something we want to do again in a few months.

We talked about how the ODGs used ground contours to influence play and how to differentiate between a strategic hazard and a penal hazard. An hour later, the audience decided that the swale in our second fairway didn't need to be a bunker to be a strategic feature that makes play interesting for everyone from the guy who drives it 170 yards to the guy who carries it 270. We talked about how the average guest who plays our 14th hole and hits his tee shot past the flag might throw a fit when he can't keep his subsequent putt on the green, but we mostly agreed that it's not "unfair" and that the player should've been smart enough to leave his tee shot below the hole. We also talked a bit about other Golden Age designs. The audience oohed and ahhed at the famous Sitwell Park green photo and tried to guess where the green was in a photo of the 5th tee at Crystal Downs. Several guys confessed that they can't stand playing "name" courses by guys like Nicklaus or Palmer that are so difficult and soggy that they turn miserable. I even heard a few guys say "Brown is good if it means the course plays fast and firm" (which was also mentioned at our Annual Meeting a few weeks ago).

It could just be that No Shave November has the world more open to beard-pulling, but maybe there really is an audience out there interested in learning more about this dorky fascination of ours.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We discuss memberships that "Don't get it" all the time...
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2013, 12:58:41 PM »
Great news.  Congrats and I'm very jealous!

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We discuss memberships that "Don't get it" all the time...
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2013, 01:07:49 PM »
Jason, very interesting and very encouraging.  It's nice to know that there are folks outside of this website who share the same passion for GCA and ideal playing conditions that we do.  

I'm confident that many (maybe even a majority) of golfers prefer what we would consider ideal playing conditions when they actually have a chance to experience those conditions.  What remains to be seen, however, is whether those same people would be willing to accept what it takes to bring those conditions to their own course(s).  I know from experience that I've played with guys in Pinehurst who have told me that they love the F&F conditions and browned out fairways and greens.  But when I asked them whether they would accept the same conditions at their home courses, they balked.  

Another example I have is that I've recently spoken with some friends about Canterbury.  We've all played it recently and agree that it has the finest turf of any course that we've played in Ohio.  The fairways are F&F and the club has opened up the playing corridors and exposed the specimen trees.  Yet when I tell others that Canterbury is the model for other courses in Ohio, they doubt whether it would work at their home courses.  I just don't get it.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 01:40:29 PM by Brian Hoover »

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We discuss memberships that "Don't get it" all the time...
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2013, 01:09:02 PM »
Great stuff, Jason.  Congratulations!  It's wonderful to hear that many of your members are so receptive.  Clovernook is a beard-puller's delight, and you don't necessarily have to be a die-hard gca nerd to appreciate firm & fast, some quirk, and the other fun stuff we here all seem to love.

It is great to hear that this group has had another positive influence on the golf world.  I am encouraged when I read threads like this one and Duncan's update on Reddish Vale, among many others.  Thanks for sharing.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We discuss memberships that "Don't get it" all the time...
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2013, 01:16:29 PM »
Jason -

This is a great example to all of what GCA.com can accomplish.

Well done!

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We discuss memberships that "Don't get it" all the time...
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2013, 01:25:52 PM »
Great stuff Jason. Sounds like you have an enlightened membership over there!
H.P.S.

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We discuss memberships that "Don't get it" all the time...
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2013, 03:18:24 PM »
Mr. Thurman,

That is a neat story.  I wish we could do that at my club, would be interesting to hear opinions from various age groups.  

If you ever get down to Tennessee, there is an untouched Langford in Morristown, TN.  My college roommate is the Superintendent there.  He is very, very proud of the Langford heritage...but I think he feels many of the members...much less the community knows what they have in the club.  It is a very difficult course, but fun to play.  Very creative green complexes, a few blind fairways, and the hardest set of par 3's in East Tennessee.
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We discuss memberships that "Don't get it" all the time...
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2013, 03:26:05 PM »
Jason,

Clovernook is a great course. I have played all those other courses around Cincinnati and I think Clovernook CC stacks up just fine. Nice that you could get so members to attend that dinner!
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We discuss memberships that "Don't get it" all the time...
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2013, 03:26:41 PM »
Wow and well done - in fact, to kinda reverse paraphrase Monty Pythons 'Life of Brian', "he's not a very naughty GCA boy, he's a GCA messiah"! I wish you every success in progressing this matter forward.
All the best

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We discuss memberships that "Don't get it" all the time...
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2013, 05:59:32 PM »
If I didn't live 45 minutes from Clovernook I'd be jumping at the chance to be a member. The course has a fun set of greens. Some thoughtful tree management and a little bunker restoration and the course will shine.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We discuss memberships that "Don't get it" all the time...
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2013, 06:07:00 PM »
If I didn't live 45 minutes from Clovernook I'd be jumping at the chance to be a member. The course has a fun set of greens. Some thoughtful tree management and a little bunker restoration and the course will shine.

If I didn't live 2 hours from Cincy, I'd get my membership application in at Camargo. Yep, that's the only thing holding me back.  ;)

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We discuss memberships that "Don't get it" all the time...
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2013, 07:50:14 PM »
That's pretty cool Jason. I think Clovernook is excellent. Perhaps the most fun I've had playing in the rain! I was very surprised that it is only on 100 acres. It certainly didn't feel that way.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We discuss memberships that "Don't get it" all the time...
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2013, 08:02:16 PM »
That's pretty cool Jason. I think Clovernook is excellent. Perhaps the most fun I've had playing in the rain! I was very surprised that it is only on 100 acres. It certainly didn't feel that way.

I also had no idea the property was only 100 acres. It definitely felt much bigger than that...of course, my spraying it all over the place might have contributed to that sense of it being a bugger property.

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