[Patrick_Mucci]

SEMINOLE

They need to see a wonderfully conditioned golf course, with ideal playing surfaces that are.................................


BROWN

That's right,                  B     R     O     W     N

The fairways are light green to BROWN

The greens are light green and brownish.

The greens were firm, incredibly true and fast.
Ideal playing surfaces.

As were the fairways, some of which were totally brown.

This has to be one of the great eye openers in golf.

Nice firm, tight fairways that offered ideal playing surfaces and firm, fast greens that did the same.

Hard to find a ball mark.

What an incredible treat.

How come they get it and few others do ?

Why do other clubs strive for deep, lush green when achieving that color usually means that the playing surfaces are less than desirable ?

[Mark McKeever]

If anyone wants to see this "browned out" look on a course that everyone on the site can actually access , go visit Shennecossett in Groton, CT.

Mark

[Chris_Hufnagel]

I would guess it has to do something with color television and a certain weekend in April...

[BHoover]

Could it have something to do with the fact that so very few get to play a place like Seminole? Hard to appreciate what is considered ideal playing surfaces when you can't get near it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Could it have something to do with the fact that so very few get to play a place like Seminole?

No, no fewer play Seminole than most other private clubs

Hard to appreciate what is considered ideal playing surfaces when you can't get near it.

So, we shouldn't discuss, NGLA, Shinnecock, Winged Foot, ANGC, CPC, MPCC and other private courses ?

I wonder if there's a current aerial available that would show how brown the playing surfaces are ?

[BHoover]

Could it have something to do with the fact that so very few get to play a place like Seminole?

No, no fewer play Seminole than most other private clubs

Hard to appreciate what is considered ideal playing surfaces when you can't get near it.

So, we shouldn't discuss, NGLA, Shinnecock, Winged Foot, ANGC, CPC, MPCC and other private courses ?

I wonder if there's a current aerial available that would show how brown the playing surfaces are ?

I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss these courses. Instead, I'm saying that perhaps more golfers would appreciate that brown and F&F can be good things if they experienced those conditions at one of the great courses.

[David_Tepper]

Pat M. -

I know nothing about the types of grass at Seminole and the seasonality of those grasses.

Do you know how much of the current "brown-ess" of the grasses there is a function of conscious actions (or inaction in the case of watering less) by the greenskeeping staff vs. some of the grasses possibly beginning to go dormant at this time of year?

Do you know how many months of the year Seminole is maintained as it is now?

DT

[Mark Pearce]

Pat,

Didn't the people you want to see Seminole watch the Open at Muirfield? What effect did seeing the brown-ness of that course have on the way their courses are maintained?

[Thomas Dai]

SEMINOLE
They need to see a wonderfully conditioned golf course, with ideal playing surfaces that are.................................
BROWN
That's right,                  B     R     O     W     N
The fairways are light green to BROWN
The greens are light green and brownish.
The greens were firm, incredibly true and fast.
Ideal playing surfaces.
As were the fairways, some of which were totally brown.
This has to be one of the great eye openers in golf.
Nice firm, tight fairways that offered ideal playing surfaces and firm, fast greens that did the same.
Hard to find a ball mark.

Sounds wonderful. Difficult to disagree with the sentiments expressed. Any chance of seeing a few photos and knowing what time of year the photos were taken?
All the best

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

   And if the Green Chairman and Green Committee fall in love with the conditioning of a course on any given day they should:  Find out what the course maintenance budget is, what the capital project budget is, get a copy of the course maintenance objectives and standards,  cultural practice program and schedule and tour the maintenance facility.

   Of course this never happens and they just rush back to the home course and ask why can't we have what XYZ has?

[Brent Hutto]

Our course's main irrigation pump failed the first week of October and we've also had only an inch or so of rain all month. I've always loved our golf course but it is by far the most fun to play right now that it's ever been. If it played like this year-round I may never spend another $1,500 of an airline ticket to the UK.

The greens are firm enough to reject low shots with no spin but they will hold a well-struck short iron. The approaches are firm enough to choose landing a longer iron 5-10 yards short and bouncing it on (this is EXTREMELY rare under normal circumstances). And the ball will run forever on tee shots, either forever down the fairway if hit straight or run into normally out-of-play fairway bunkers if just slightly off line. The Bermuda rough is getting crispy, at one to two inches deep a ball in the main cut may or may not be playing with the old ball back in the stance 7-iron punch shot that may or may not be a flier, normally a ball in that rough means hacking out sideways with a lob wedge.

The course is just wonderful to play on. And on a breezy fall afternoon the effect of the wind is magnified by the firmness. However, the rough is almost entirely brown with just occasional dark green patches. And the fairways are a greenish-gold tending toward brown so at the same time members are praising the playability of the course in the same breath they worry that it's ugly and "almost dead". And maybe they are right. About the dead part.

Moot point. The pump was fixed two days ago so I'm sure it will be running 24x7 for a few days until we get the ground completely saturated with pond water. It was fun while it lasted.

[Mike Policano]

Someday, Brown will be the new Green.

Go to courses like Ballyneal, Cal Club and those at Bandon and you can't help but like playing on courses that are fast and firm. Heck, Ballyneal's slogan is "Get Down with Brown".

Since Necessity is still sometimes the Mother of invention, perhaps it will take the water restrictions that are starting to show up to force courses to brown and the resulting firm and fast conditions.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

Our course's main irrigation pump failed the first week of October and we've also had only an inch or so of rain all month. I've always loved our golf course but it is by far the most fun to play right now that it's ever been. If it played like this year-round I may never spend another $1,500 of an airline ticket to the UK.

The greens are firm enough to reject low shots with no spin but they will hold a well-struck short iron. The approaches are firm enough to choose landing a longer iron 5-10 yards short and bouncing it on (this is EXTREMELY rare under normal circumstances). And the ball will run forever on tee shots, either forever down the fairway if hit straight or run into normally out-of-play fairway bunkers if just slightly off line. The Bermuda rough is getting crispy, at one to two inches deep a ball in the main cut may or may not be playing with the old ball back in the stance 7-iron punch shot that may or may not be a flier, normally a ball in that rough means hacking out sideways with a lob wedge.

The course is just wonderful to play on. And on a breezy fall afternoon the effect of the wind is magnified by the firmness. However, the rough is almost entirely brown with just occasional dark green patches. And the fairways are a greenish-gold tending toward brown so at the same time members are praising the playability of the course in the same breath they worry that it's ugly and "almost dead". And maybe they are right. About the dead part.

Moot point. The pump was fixed two days ago so I'm sure it will be running 24x7 for a few days until we get the ground completely saturated with pond water. It was fun while it lasted.

Those conditions sure sound like fun.  Are you in a community that treats it's own water?  Is the water used on the golf course?

[Brent Hutto]

Nope, there's a small lake (large pond?) adjacent to the course from which the club has an unlimited water draw. Rights are grandfathered in from decades ago when the club used to have an ownership stake in the lake.

So the good news is, no drought restrictions, no water bill. And I've never seen the lake/pond get more than a few feet below full, it apparently has a good inflow all year round.

Bad news is it's pond water which can be hard on the pump and we have no particular incentive not to water the crap out of the entire course!

[Jerry Kluger]

Sometimes there isn't a simple solution to what we view as a problem and this is far more involved than just reducing the amount of water.  The courses which have been mentioned are certainly firm and fast but they are also on some very sandy soil which lends itself to firm and fast conditions.  it is also far different to create those conditions on bermuda or fescue surfaces than on bent or rye grass surfaces. How about pointing out courses that are more easily accessible and play firm and fast.  It has now cooled down in my area and there are far more firm and fast course conditions but during the summer it is really difficult and you must have very knowledgable employees who can properly syringe a green, etc.  You also have to consider the particular course and if the course requires an aerial game and firm greens will make the course very unenjoyable to play.  

[Thomas Dai]

Out of interest, and because it was touched upon on another current thread regarding the future of the game,

- when did automatic sprinkler irrigation of greens become commonplace in the US?
- when did automatic sprinkler irrigation of tees, fairways and rough become commonplace in the US?

By 'automatic' I mean with timers rather than with a mans hand turning a stopcock/valve and spraying with a hose and by 'commonplace' I mean when more than half of all 18-hole courses commenced using the method.

All the best

[Brent Hutto]

Among the courses I play, it was common but probably not the majority when I started I 1994. The majority were still somewhat manual. Over the last 10 years or so I'd say very few courses I play do not have an automatic system. So it probably became common some time before 1994 (maybe 80's) and nigh universal by the early 00's.

[Patrick_Mucci]

  And if the Green Chairman and Green Committee fall in love with the conditioning of a course on any given day they should:  Find out what the course maintenance budget is, what the capital project budget is, get a copy of the course maintenance objectives and standards,  cultural practice program and schedule and tour the maintenance facility.

   Of course this never happens and they just rush back to the home course and ask why can't we have what XYZ has?

Sean,

It's really got nothing to do with those individual items, it's really all about the "culture of golf"

If that culture exists, you'll figure out the details.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat M. -

I know nothing about the types of grass at Seminole and the seasonality of those grasses.

Do you know how much of the current "brown-ess" of the grasses there is a function of conscious actions (or inaction in the case of watering less) by the greenskeeping staff vs. some of the grasses possibly beginning to go dormant at this time of year?

It's a conscious action to produce ideal playing surfaces.
The application of water is limited based upon the health of the turf.

They do NOT overseed

Do you know how many months of the year Seminole is maintained as it is now?

Only Mother Nature can answer that question.

But, it's clear, they want firm, fast playing surfaces and try to achieve them as best that Mother Nature allows.

[Bill Brightly]

Do you think these conditions are possible on a consistent basis in the summer in the northeast parkland courses where you and I play on a regular basis?

Do you think the average Superintendent on these courses is really afraid of Brown, and therefore, overwatering to please the Ground Chairs and memberships?

[David Royer]

I serve as green chairman at my club. Sean's first post couldn't be more right on.  Here in Columbus,Ohio we have not just four seasons but seasons within seasons.  The ability to produce consistent conditions is arguably just as important. We have an outstanding group of dedicated professionals who work long and hard given the daily variables of Mother Nature. F&F is great fun, it's hard to produce in August with 70 degree lows and highs at 90. Early spring late fall are two best windows.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Do you think these conditions are possible on a consistent basis in the summer in the northeast parkland courses where you and I play on a regular basis?

Bill,

Yes, but you can't achieve those conditions overnight, it takes time and money to transition from current conditions to F&F.

I recall playing brown fairways in the 50's and 60's, pretty much every summer, depending upon Mother Nature

Do you think the average Superintendent on these courses is really afraid of Brown, and therefore, overwatering to please the Ground Chairs and memberships?

Absolutely.

I, we, are in the minority when it comes to maximizing the condition of the playing surfaces at the expense of color.

Most memberships want a monochromatic look, not a mottled greenish, yellowish, brownish look.

Unfortunately, form has overtaken substance when it comes to the playing conditions on most golf courses.

Pine Tree, is in excellent condition, but still slightly soft/green in the fairways.
If Pine Tree's fairways looked like Seminole's, I'm sure the complaints would be abundant.

The critical issue at democratically run clubs is educating the membership and getting them to understand the tradeoff.
That superior playing conditions are achieved when wall to wall lush green is absent

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

Do you think these conditions are possible on a consistent basis in the summer in the northeast parkland courses where you and I play on a regular basis?

Bill,

Yes, but you can't achieve those conditions overnight, it takes time and money to transition from current conditions to F&F.

I recall playing brown fairways in the 50's and 60's, pretty much every summer, depending upon Mother Nature

Pat - In an earlier post you told me it was about the "culture of golf" it really has nothing to do with my list of items that directly impacts how the Superintendent does his job.  Now you tell Bill that "it takes time and money to transition from current conditions to F&F."  Isn't it really a combination of both?


Do you think the average Superintendent on these courses is really afraid of Brown, and therefore, overwatering to please the Ground Chairs and memberships?

Absolutely.

I, we, are in the minority when it comes to maximizing the condition of the playing surfaces at the expense of color.

Most memberships want a monochromatic look, not a mottled greenish, yellowish, brownish look.

Unfortunately, form has overtaken substance when it comes to the playing conditions on most golf courses.

Pine Tree, is in excellent condition, but still slightly soft/green in the fairways.
If Pine Tree's fairways looked like Seminole's, I'm sure the complaints would be abundant.

The critical issue at democratically run clubs is educating the membership and getting them to understand the tradeoff.
That superior playing conditions are achieved when wall to wall lush green is absent

[Bill Brightly]

Pat,

Why would "fast and firm" cost more money?

[Andrew Buck]

Bill,

Wouldn't it be location and grass specific?  In some areas water is a big expense and grasses are resilient.  In others, water isn't very expensive, but going too "brown" is stressful on grasses, especially if poa is involved.

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